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sebster wrote:

biccat wrote:Why do you buy locally? What makes it a more ethical decision to support a local job, than to support a job in Vietnam or somewhere else? If anything, the Vietnamese guy probably needs the income a whole lot more than the Australian guy.

Just to grab that point, what is really stopping that Vietnamese guy from doing the same as the Australian guy?
Sure, his country's employment structure isn't the same, and industry there isn't necessarily as advanced, but why is that?
If money gets pumped into the country, why does their standard of living not change much, or their prices go up?

It's happened with services outsourcing.
For instance, India was once a very cheap place to run a callcentre. With the training the people there gained, and the resources put in place to facilitate that callcentre, wages rise, costs go up, and India moves up in the world-wide rankings. This also means standards are raised, and we hear less of Indian swaetshops than we once did.
Why does this not happen in China, or Vietnam, or wherever?

Or, maybe it's just me, and people who know better can correct me.

Ahtman wrote:I only buy miniatures forged from lead and hardened with tears of poor children. Obliviously most of my mini's are from Reaper...

...and the results are in... This was actually humour being exhibited by Ahtman.

You saw it on DAKKA FIRST!

Also, if GW decreases its costs by producing out of Asia, then continues it ridiculous pricing strategy...

Shareholders win!

brettz123 wrote:So the answer I am getting is that no one knows if this is indeed going and not one of you can actually point to any piece of evidence that it is. I would take the question much more seriously if any of you actually had a shred of evidence to support your hypothesis.

...

No this is not a strawman argument at all. The question was specifically about the ethical purchasing of wargaming related items. If there are no ethical violations being perpetrated by wargaming companies the entire question is pointless. It gets to the heart of the issue rather clearly.

Well it's not my hypothesis, I don't think it's been claimed by anyone that any wargames companies do operate sweatshops, the OP was enquiring about conditions of such workers.

But the topic has widened a bit since the OP, a fair few comments on this thread are about sweatshops in generalised terms. Whether or not wargames companies do operate sweatshops doesn't change my comments which are directed towards those people who dismiss or don't care about sweatshops in general.

Skinnereal, it doesn't happen in those places because "Export Processing Zones" or similar areas are in place (see _No Logo_ for more info). They ensure that though money passes through the relevant 3rd world countries, it doesn't really stay there, because companies doing business there pay no taxes.

Matty, likewise, you seemed a very pleasant chap at the Dakka tourney last year. But please note, I'm explicitly *not* telling other people what to buy and what not to buy, in this thread! You and others say you don't want to have this debate at all... so stop doing it! This thread was intended for those of us who *do* care what we buy, to share info.

Ahtman.
You completely misunderstood my post.
Idon't have the energy to waste explaining so too bad.

I included a list of sages that are a few of my exemplars to highlight the difference in ways of thinking about and trying to engage with.
You may substitute your own list.

Matty
Moral grandstanding
immoral and macho posturing.

We make choices on how to try and live our lives.
If people wish to be unkind you think it were better of me to say nothing? Not going to happen.

No it doesn't make me feel good to come on Dakka and see heartless comments that are often down right nasty.
No doubt someone will espouse the platitudes of how tough life is. You can try and justify the spite as much as you wish. I was bought up to respect not despise others.

Add my parents and teachers to the list of sages Ahtamn


Ian
I am sorry your worthwhile thread turned out this way.
I will now withdraw as it is starting to get personal.

Aye sorry Ian I was directing that primarily at Chibi.

Skinnereal wrote:For instance, India was once a very cheap place to run a callcentre. With the training the people there gained, and the resources put in place to facilitate that callcentre, wages rise, costs go up, and India moves up in the world-wide rankings. This also means standards are raised, and we hear less of Indian swaetshops than we once did.
Why does this not happen in China, or Vietnam, or wherever?

Well, there are two answers. Please choose whichever you think is more appropriate:
1) Evil capitalists need cheap sweatshop labor somewhere in the world to exploit and earn their blood money, and with wages rising everywhere, they've chosen to lock China and Vietnam into a cycle of poverty.

2) China has a huge population and lots of people who want to move out of the extreme poverty of subsistence farming and get a job so they can improve their lot in life. They are willing to accept lower paying jobs, and there isn't enough industry in China to employ all of them, so wages remain low. Couple this with the fact that China is keeping a fairly tight control on their currency (for a variety of reasons), and you have support to maintain those sweatshops.

It must be said, considering that the government sends a large packet of money out each year in aid to various states around the world, I consider my charity donations to be my taxes that contribute to that. Hence why I don't sign up to half a dozen '£5 a month' schemes.

Having said that, I'll put a pound in a tin if someone rattles it at me outside M&S, not out of concern for the charity involved, but out of respect for the person who's been standing out there all day for free for a cause that doesn't pay them a penny.

Adverts from third world countries showing me starving orphans, children with psoriasis and flies all over them, polio, etc just irritate me. Mainly because I've lived in Africa and seen it firsthand more than most of the people who subscribe to these charities do, and I've come to accept that there's little I can do about it. So shoving it down my throat just irritates me.

I buy Organic milk because I know they pump cows full of chemicals for increased yields, and those chemicals stick around in the milk. I don't know if they'll be harmful or not, but I'm conscious enough of the risk to not want to find out ten years down the line it gives me 50% higher risk of cancer or something. People used to say tobacco was harmless after all.

I buy free range chicken, because the ones that are factory reared are pumped full of water, shrivel in the oven, and taste like bad quorn. I'm also not too fond of the factory rearing system, but I do accept that cheap meat is necessary to feed the vast consumer society of today.

When it comes to my models, just about everything I own is produced in less than salubrious conditions. Computer chips in my phone, PC, and so on, ink in my books, the material that my clothes are processed from is probably processed somewhere cheap and abroad. At some point in the production line, some part of it probably went through China or India. And I accept that. Sure China may not have the best working conditions. Sure, the people there are being exploited. But ultimately, I don't regard it as my responsibility. They have a government that spends all its money on new upgraded stealth fighters to compete with the US. The Indian government has nukes. Why is it my responsibility and not their governments to protect their interests?

So yes. Ultimately, I'm not too fussed in my GW models are made in sweatshops because...well, just about everything is in modern society. Sure, I'd rather the kids were getting an education, but child labour isn't that far gone from my own country. And education for all is a luxury earned by a society when it has progressed far enough and developed a system of social responsibility for itself. Like the NHS, a fair judiciary, union rights, and so on. These are the benchmarks by which you judge civilisation.

But ultimately, these places aren't ruled by Britain. They're outside of our jurisdiction. We don't have the right to push our own societies ethics upon them. The day China grants full sovereignty to England over their country, is the day I'm all for instituting changes to make them like our great nation. Until that day, we have neither the right, nor the power to make any change of significance.

I was being intentionally inflamatory, don't get mad because I don't give a gak.

Ketara wrote:I buy Organic milk because I know they pump cows full of chemicals for increased yields, and those chemicals stick around in the milk. I don't know if they'll be harmful or not, but I'm conscious enough of the risk to not want to find out ten years down the line it gives me 50% higher risk of cancer or something. People used to say tobacco was harmless after all.

Actually the biggest problem isn't with adults, but with children. All of those chemicals end up in the milk that children are made to drink so that they can grow strong bones. And in that early developmental stage of their lives, even a residual amount of hormones used to bulk up the cattle can cause, say, a girl to hit puberty at the age of eight instead of the age of eleven.

mattyrm wrote:

Ahtman wrote:I only buy miniatures forged from lead and hardened with tears of poor children. Obliviously most of my mini's are from Reaper...

lol.

Seriously though, If you found out GW got orphans to make their minis for 5p a month, would you stop buying your beloved GW?!

Cos i friggin wouldnt!

Actually, if this turned out to be the case (or rather sweatshops, rather than your OTT example!), I would stop buying GW. I'm sure a lot of people would actually, especially if it became widely known. Hopefully enough would stop that it might make such a move pointless, then the company would finally go down following a parent suing on account of either: a ) their child inhaling resin dust. b ) a GW worker gets accused of being a paedophile, made possible due to the 1-staff policy.

My post is only half serious, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the above came to pass.

You lost the conversation by putting GW in with Ethical gaming.


50.00 set of 5 terminators, even though there is the same amount of plastic as any other sprue.
A playboard the cost of over 200 bones.
canvas carrying cases in the same scheme as a 20 dollar book bag- over 100.00...

Profit rules, full stop. GW gives fig about ethics, sweatshops, or fair.

This reminds me of that Venture Brothers episode when Venture made the device out of dead orphens...

" Adverts from third world countries showing me starving orphans, children with psoriasis and flies all over them, polio, etc just irritate me. Mainly because I've lived in Africa and seen it firsthand more than most of the people who subscribe to these charities do, and I've come to accept that there's little I can do about it. So shoving it down my throat just irritates me."

This is quoted for truth. Those so called "Sweatshops" are paying bills. You can either do something about it, then pay higher rates as you end up paying some union thug money, or you can tell your local buisness to do something about it, such as cut a few funds devided into the cost of production that could end up PAYING thier own competition more. Bottom line, that land raider is going to get made, you can either pay short or pay long, but you as a consumer are going to end up paying in the end, either way.

Want to talk about OSHA standards? They don't exisit in some countries, but in the states, companies take it in the hind quarters for even the slightest offense. You wonder why they move out and pay some mutt 15 cents on the dollar? because its business.

And to addin a little to the order of the bleeding heart, I've seen enough sweatshops in the world, they are doing business, and you won't stop them. You shut down one, the workers are going to get rounded up and shuttled to the next one down the block. If she don't work in a sweatshop, she's going to get shuttled off to the middle east, asia, or the states in a sex trade ring. You can sit there high and mighty, or go to your local sweatshop, chicken plucking plant, jeans factory, toy maker, etc... and go see how far your indignation lasts when the thug pops a few rounds at you for cutting into thier production quota's and drawing attention to the unspoken of evil that ecveryone already knows about.

Harsh and cruel? Yes it is, but it's how they do it in the real world.

Want a real shock, let me show you some pictures of what happens when little Xe shows a little backbone and steps up to that ogling pervert.

What are you going to do for a local economy thats collective profits runs around 1 mil on the long end? What happens when some chemical company, computer maker, plastics maker rolls into town, starts spewing chemical waste everywhere, yet puts some money into an illiterate, unmotivated work base with an endless supply of labor?

Nothing. Your going to sit there, point a few fingers, but at the end of the day, your buying that land raider, no matter who made it.

Want to talk about sweatshops? GW's stores count as sweatshops in this conversation. they run their employees through a ringer of a training program, push them to the limit in sales targets, and then fire thier asses if they don't meet them. period. full stop. They do nothing to lower costs, profits are the bottom line. You can be indignant about it, or see it for what it is.

Business as usual. Because at the end of the day, no one really cares where the jeans/ jacket/ land raider comes from. As long as they have one, it's the newest one on the block, and they better have access to three more to play Planetstrike.

Life is pain. Looking down your nose at it makes you hypocritical at the lowest level, participant at the highest.
The countries that these "Sweatshops" are in don't have a serious incentive to shut them down, seeing as the company owners pretty much paid the entery fee, operation cost of the local governments, hush money, gratuity fee, operating costs, and... wages. These extensive incentives of thier own that far outwiegh anything you as the indignant protester are going to fork over.
If you really knew the backstory behind the issue, you'd honestly be suprised.

Money Talks, BS walks.

50.00 set of 5 terminators, even though there is the same amount of plastic as any other sprue.
A playboard the cost of over 200 bones.
canvas carrying cases in the same scheme as a 20 dollar book bag- over 100.00...

Profit rules, full stop. GW gives fig about ethics, sweatshops, or fair.

Pricing of luxury items in western countries has nothing to do with corporate ethics. Thats a giant strawman.

Want to talk about OSHA standards? They don't exisit in some countries, but in the states, companies take it in the hind quarters for even the slightest offense. You wonder why they move out and pay some mutt 15 cents on the dollar? because its business.

This is also blatently illogical as that supposes that they would export factory work so that they can utilize sweatshop conditions. This directly implies that there is no advantage to producing in labor protected countries as by definition they want someone they can treat badly. Stating that the US screws people for wanting that puts the court before the horse.

And to addin a little to the order of the bleeding heart, I've seen enough sweatshops in the world, they are doing business, and you won't stop them. You shut down one, the workers are going to get rounded up and shuttled to the next one down the block. If she don't work in a sweatshop, she's going to get shuttled off to the middle east, asia, or the states in a sex trade ring. You can sit there high and mighty, or go to your local sweatshop, chicken plucking plant, jeans factory, toy maker, etc... and go see how far your indignation lasts when the thug pops a few rounds at you for cutting into thier production quota's and drawing attention to the unspoken of evil that ecveryone already knows about.

This entire post (and thread in general) speaks to a powerful ignorance concerning sweatshop functionality, placement, and function in developing countries.

Want to talk about sweatshops? GW's stores count as sweatshops in this conversation. they run their employees through a ringer of a training program, push them to the limit in sales targets, and then fire thier asses if they don't meet them. period. full stop. They do nothing to lower costs, profits are the bottom line. You can be indignant about it, or see it for what it is.

Thats ludicrously hyperbolic and relegates the term "sweatshop" to mean "Any low paying unskilled job".

Business as usual. Because at the end of the day, no one really cares where the jeans/ jacket/ land raider comes from. As long as they have one, it's the newest one on the block, and they better have access to three more to play Planetstrike.

If no one cared this thread wouldn't exist.

Life is pain. Looking down your nose at it makes you hypocritical at the lowest level, participant at the highest.

Wouldn't participation be the most basic form of involvement with life? Did you read this post before you posted it?

If you really knew the backstory behind the issue, you'd honestly be suprised.

I feel the same.

ShumaGorath wrote:

50.00 set of 5 terminators, even though there is the same amount of plastic as any other sprue.
A playboard the cost of over 200 bones.
canvas carrying cases in the same scheme as a 20 dollar book bag- over 100.00...

Profit rules, full stop. GW gives fig about ethics, sweatshops, or fair.

I have nothing to contribute, I just want to look like a ponce. Let me continue by cutting and pasting while I contribute nothing.

Strawman to you. I NEED MY PLASTIC CRACK!!!

That was only one of the examples of profit. We talk about the ethics later, because bottom line, production costs are what we are talking about here. Production costs in leu of profits. If I can get a kid to spin that web for a nickle, I'll get it, no matter if its for a nickle, or a doller, your still going to pay what I tell you to pay.

And it's got gak to do with ethics.

You spouting off about western countries is the Strawman.

Those profits of "Luxury Items" are in direct relation to how much the item then costs to produce. I see no strawman in that example.

Then I'm left only to assume that you don't know what the word "ethics" means at all.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I would if I could but I ain't Madonna



good grief Charlie Brown.

If you wish to live without understanding or caring that is your business. If people like the OP wish to try and live a life according to a set of values they feel comfortable with, then that is their business.

So who should we listen to?
maybe the likes of
Buddha?
Lao Tzu?
Jesus Christ?
Krishna?

or the likes of Stormrider, Brettz et al?

Behave like an ork if you wish, but even though I be flawed please don't decry my paltry efforts to be better than I am.

Obviously you haven't read what I have posted. Geez..... let me reiterate. I am asking if there is any evidence of the type of behavior that is being discussed. That is all. That is not condoning bad behavior simply asking if there is any. Now if you can't understand that fine but don't slander me just because you aren't intelligent enough to understand what I am saying. But don't go about insulting people by juxtaposing them with people like Budha or Jesus Christ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

But the topic has widened a bit since the OP, a fair few comments on this thread are about sweatshops in generalised terms. Whether or not wargames companies do operate sweatshops doesn't change my comments which are directed towards those people who dismiss or don't care about sweatshops in general.

I do not dismiss or think sweatshops are in any way "good". What I have been attempting to do is get some facts down about the real circumstances that wargames companies produce miniatures under. This is a dedicated forum for the discussion of wargaming and this thread in particular has had several people accuse GW of running these kinds of operations in China.

So I am simply asking if this is true and if someone thinks it is true (of GW or any other company) then I would like someone to show some proof. Because of this some people seem to think it is ok to attack me as well as some other people who have different opinions.

No cut and paste taking apart my statement Shuma?

It must be said, I haven't had a proper discussion/debate on here for a while. I'm starting to wonder if everyone just agrees with me or if I'm being plain ignored.....

Everybody in this thread needs to stop assuming every factory in the third world is a sweatshop. There are considerable differences in safety and working conditions.

Skinnereal wrote:Just to grab that point, what is really stopping that Vietnamese guy from doing the same as the Australian guy?
Sure, his country's employment structure isn't the same, and industry there isn't necessarily as advanced, but why is that?
If money gets pumped into the country, why does their standard of living not change much, or their prices go up?

The standard of living has gone up. Wages in Vietnam and South East Asia as a whole have shown considerable wages growth.

It's happened with services outsourcing.
For instance, India was once a very cheap place to run a callcentre. With the training the people there gained, and the resources put in place to facilitate that callcentre, wages rise, costs go up, and India moves up in the world-wide rankings. This also means standards are raised, and we hear less of Indian swaetshops than we once did.
Why does this not happen in China, or Vietnam, or wherever?

Or, maybe it's just me, and people who know better can correct me.

It has happened. The increase in wages in China have actually led to many low skill, low value add industries, namely textiles, moving out of China and into other countries in south east asia. Meanwhile China is using that base to move into more sophisticated and higher paying industries.

The complexity of the issue is that yes, working conditions are bad and there's a lot we should do to make sure employees aren't exploited, but foreign companies coming there and using labour is the best way to grow the economy and drive up the standard of living. So the point is not "no foreign factories", but "no foreign factories that exploit labour with dangerous conditions". Which admittedly takes more reading than most people are willing to do.

Oh, and wages in China are around double what they are in India, by the way, and India is only 3 or 4% ahead of Vietnam.

Grot 6 wrote:You lost the conversation by putting GW in with Ethical gaming.


50.00 set of 5 terminators, even though there is the same amount of plastic as any other sprue.
A playboard the cost of over 200 bones.
canvas carrying cases in the same scheme as a 20 dollar book bag- over 100.00...

Profit rules, full stop. GW gives fig about ethics, sweatshops, or fair.

Ethics is the use of power. It is concerned with power relationships where one party is in a much weaker position than the other, such as an employer and employee, and so the more powerful party is under some obligation not to exploit their position and enforce too poor a deal on the weaker party.

The seller and consumer of plastic miniatures are not in a power relationship, because the consumer is free to walk away at any time. As such, there is no unethical price, there is just the price the market is willing to pay.

Life is pain. Looking down your nose at it makes you hypocritical at the lowest level, participant at the highest.

So here you are willing to shrug and get philosophical about economic exploitation in the third world, but ten seconds earlier you were bemoaning how much you had to pay for a terminator. Yeah. Classy.

"Oh, so there's eight year olds forced into dangerous labour conditions but that's just life and they all to toughen up, but won't someone do something about how much I have to pay for a plastic toy?"

Ketara wrote:No cut and paste taking apart my statement Shuma?

It must be said, I haven't had a proper discussion/debate on here for a while. I'm starting to wonder if everyone just agrees with me or if I'm being plain ignored.....

I don't have the time to tear apart every post in this thread. To be honest I haven't even been following the topic. I just skim now and then and sometimes posts like Grot6's jump out at me. I don't have the mental capitol to invest in this thread in any fashion short of a galbraithian screamfest.

Intelligent post Sebster, agree with everything you say there.

I think really it needs some sort of confirmation of which area/factory complex GW is utilising in China, it then will be possible to ascertain whether or not it's a sweatshop. Although as pointed out, conditions in China have been improving for the most part. I would be much more suspicious if they were being produced in South Asia (vietnam/Indonesia etc.) or India.

Ketara wrote:It must be said, considering that the government sends a large packet of money out each year in aid to various states around the world, I consider my charity donations to be my taxes that contribute to that. Hence why I don't sign up to half a dozen '£5 a month' schemes.

In the UK the government spends about £5 billion a year on foreign economic aid, out of a total budget of £460 billion. An average single guy earning an average £30,000 wage is going to pay around £7,300 in taxes, including national insurance.

This means he's paying, through his government taxes, about £80 a year in foreign economic aid. If you think that's enough, then fair enough.

When it comes to my models, just about everything I own is produced in less than salubrious conditions. Computer chips in my phone, PC, and so on, ink in my books, the material that my clothes are processed from is probably processed somewhere cheap and abroad. At some point in the production line, some part of it probably went through China or India. And I accept that. Sure China may not have the best working conditions. Sure, the people there are being exploited. But ultimately, I don't regard it as my responsibility. They have a government that spends all its money on new upgraded stealth fighters to compete with the US. The Indian government has nukes. Why is it my responsibility and not their governments to protect their interests?

You're confusing exploitative conditions with non-exploitatitve conditions. Not every factory in China is horrific. While the wages are much lower, that corresponds to the skill level of the workers, and it is a stage of production the economy must pass through before taking on higher paid work.

This doesn't mean we can't do something about the horrific factories.

So yes. Ultimately, I'm not too fussed in my GW models are made in sweatshops because...well, just about everything is in modern society. Sure, I'd rather the kids were getting an education, but child labour isn't that far gone from my own country. And education for all is a luxury earned by a society when it has progressed far enough and developed a system of social responsibility for itself. Like the NHS, a fair judiciary, union rights, and so on. These are the benchmarks by which you judge civilisation.

Pretty much. I'd question the use of the word "earned" but that's a quibble, really.

But ultimately, these places aren't ruled by Britain. They're outside of our jurisdiction. We don't have the right to push our own societies ethics upon them. The day China grants full sovereignty to England over their country, is the day I'm all for instituting changes to make them like our great nation. Until that day, we have neither the right, nor the power to make any change of significance.

Who's to say the kids don't want to risk losing their fingers in machinery?

Seriously, it's okay to say something is fethed up even when it isn't in your country. The working conditions in some overseas factories are fethed up.

It is objectively good when these conditions are improved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pacific wrote:Intelligent post Sebster, agree with everything you say there.

I think really it needs some sort of confirmation of which area/factory complex GW is utilising in China, it then will be possible to ascertain whether or not it's a sweatshop. Although as pointed out, conditions in China have been improving for the most part. I would be much more suspicious if they were being produced in South Asia (vietnam/Indonesia etc.) or India.

Exactly. Simply hearing that it was produced overseas and therefore it's bad is getting half the story and leaping to conclusions.

Wahoo! Someone to have a discussion with!

You've made me a happy man sebster.

sebster wrote:

In the UK the government spends about £5 billion a year on foreign economic aid, out of a total budget of £460 billion. An average single guy earning an average £30,000 wage is going to pay around £7,300 in taxes, including national insurance.

This means he's paying, through his government taxes, about £80 a year in foreign economic aid. If you think that's enough, then fair enough.

Dayum. That's more than I thought it was. That's plenty as far as I'm concerned. Not so much I'm outraged, but not a small amount either. I'd say its about right.

You're confusing exploitative conditions with non-exploitatitve conditions. Not every factory in China is horrific. While the wages are much lower, that corresponds to the skill level of the workers, and it is a stage of production the economy must pass through before taking on higher paid work.

This doesn't mean we can't do something about the horrific factories.

I'm not necessarily claiming that ALL workplaces in China are bad and exploitative. But I think that majority of the ones involving factories and production lines no doubt are. At least, by Western standards.

And to be frank, you say it doesn't mean we can't do something. I disagree. I think that considering it is a foreign country, under a foreign government that cares little for individual rights means that the amount of influence we can bring to bear in that regard is actually quite limited. Certainly, the power to unionise the workers, set basic pay rates and work conditions, and minumum hours is beyond us. It's not our country.

Who's to say the kids don't want to risk losing their fingers in machinery?

Seriously, it's okay to say something is fethed up even when it isn't in your country. The working conditions in some overseas factories are fethed up.

It is objectively good when these conditions are improved.

Stating something is objectively good? Hooboy. I'm not even going to open that can of worms. For shame sebster! Stating something as slippery as 'good' as objective.

I don't know much about any of this stuff but the OP did ask for working conditions in the factory at Privateer Press. Since I used to work for them I can tell you that they are about as standard as it gets here in America. They pay slightly above minimum wage for the state and the working conditions for producing miniatures are rather hot as they use spin casting. But they throw the BEST christmas party I've ever been too. They networked together a bunch of Xbox 360's to a bunch of big screen tv's and let you play various games. They have prizes at the door when you walk in. I got a free I pod just for showing up. While the wages aren't really much to brag about in America, they arent at the bottom either, though they are close.

Ketara wrote:Wahoo! Someone to have a discussion with!

You've made me a happy man sebster.

Wait 'til this turns nasty

In all seriousness, I saw your post and thought maybe I could respond, but then saw Grot's post and that was easier and more fun to respond to. I saw your next comment and it was only then I thought I really should put in the effort to respond to the more serious posts.

Dayum. That's more than I thought it was. That's plenty as far as I'm concerned. Not so much I'm outraged, but not a small amount either. I'd say its about right.

Fair enough.

I'm not necessarily claiming that ALL workplaces in China are bad and exploitative. But I think that majority of the ones involving factories and production lines no doubt are. At least, by Western standards.

Well the thing is that requiring them to keep up to Western standards isn't possible. The factories just aren't generating the kind of wealth that could do that. Instead, we need to expect them to keep up to the best standard they possibly can, that is, to meet the best practice currently seen in the country.

And to be frank, you say it doesn't mean we can't do something. I disagree. I think that considering it is a foreign country, under a foreign government that cares little for individual rights means that the amount of influence we can bring to bear in that regard is actually quite limited. Certainly, the power to unionise the workers, set basic pay rates and work conditions, and minumum hours is beyond us. It's not our country.

But we can, and we have. Due to activism, the minimum wage in Indonesia doubled in real terms over the 1990s, although there was a related increase in unemployment as factories moved offshore. However, direct activism against Nike led to them driving reform among the factories producing their shoes, increasing wages and drastically improving working conditions. Studies have shown campaigns produce on average a 50% increase in real wages, with no related loss in employment.

There is a record of these campaigns making a difference.

Stating something is objectively good? Hooboy. I'm not even going to open that can of worms. For shame sebster! Stating something as slippery as 'good' as objective.

Yeah, philosophy is fun and all but there's a point where you just have to say 'it is objectively good that a person has a reduced chance of losing their life in an industrial accident'.

OP...Ill give you credit for being concerned with the welfare of all humanity. However, I believe I speak for quite a few when I say...

...I just dont have the time or energy to worry about the work conditions of someone thousands of miles away who I dont know and never will.

I wish my life was so good that I could concern myself with such things, but its not. I have myself, my wife, and our kids to worry about. I have my own job and work conditions to worry about. Anyone who has kids will tell you they are nearly a full time job to keep up with and watch out for all on their own. The there is maintaining a house, property and 2 cars. Then there are what changes are coming to local, state, and federal laws that may effect me I need to know about. The list is staggering. Once all that is sorted out I get to eek out some time to build, paint, and play with my toys soldiers...unless Im watching TV, or playing with the kids, or going to the shooting range...

Do you see the general point?...sure none of us want sweat shops exploiting people, but its so far from effecting us it rarely enters the mind.

If you have the time, money and energy to be an activist against sweatshops then go get em...but realize that 99.99% of the world doesnt have the time, energy or money to join your cause.

Ketara wrote:No cut and paste taking apart my statement Shuma?

All fear the Akatsuki

But seriously, everyone in this thread needs to go to sleep.

It's divided clearly:
People who don't really care.
People who do care, but don't believe there is a way for things to change in their current situation.
People who do care, and demand immediate action.

This isn't an argument over RAW or something, it's a topic covering everything from people's individual beliefs and morals to their knowledge of the world as a whole (or their willingness to care).
You might as well have a discussion titled "Which religion is best and which ones are the dumbest?" As you'll probably run into a majority of the same issues.
People will argue feverishly over almost anything. Even simple things such as the rules of a tabletop game can become heated, endless discussion and debate with no agreements other than to disagree; and that's about little plastic men and rules that people have read anywhere from 5-10 minutes before posting. Yet, even with such short experience, people become quickly dedicated to their position. Bring in something like morals and ethics, and you're arguing with people about something at the core of their life since their ability to think.

Go to sleep, or go talk about whatever the newest codex is being broken (1 more month till we all get to bitch about Tomb Kings! )

Mad4Minis wrote:OP...Ill give you credit for being concerned with the welfare of all humanity. However, I believe I speak for quite a few when I say...

...I just dont have the time or energy to worry about the work conditions of someone thousands of miles away who I dont know and never will.

Which is entirely fair enough. There's no obligation for you to make this your issue. It isn't, by the way, my issue either, because it's sufficiently complicated that I believe I'd need to dedicate a lot of time to figuring out which factories actually need to be campaigned against, and even then there's a decent chance I'd get it wrong and end up doing more harm than good. There's plenty of other issues where I'm much more certain that I'm doing good that I'd rather focus on them.

Oh, and to actually achieve anything I'd need to join groups full of self-righteous dicks in ponytails and Che Guevara shirts. And there's no fething way I'm doing that.


I was just trying to point out that the cynicism in this thread wasn't very true, there really is a good fight out there, and the lives of many people working in these factories has been improved dramatically.

sebster, thanks for the update on conditions. I work alongside teams of high-tech support in India, so I know a little on that side, but not the others. Hence the inaccuracy.
But, one comment I heard some time ago:
"for every high-tech job created in places like India, that creates 2 more jobs to support that one".

Offshoring work spreads around quite well, if the people actually get to see the money spent there. If the bosses keep everything but the barest minimum, no-one but them gets any benefit from it. And if that's the case, that boss is not the kind of person to care when pressure is put on to improve conditions.

I'm paying 80 quid a year?! Outrageous! Can I claim it back?

I'm not buying the big issue any more that's for sure..

Oh and an American called someone a ponce.

Bravo old bean!

sebster wrote:Well the thing is that requiring them to keep up to Western standards isn't possible. The factories just aren't generating the kind of wealth that could do that. Instead, we need to expect them to keep up to the best standard they possibly can, that is, to meet the best practice currently seen in the country.

Hey, I never said that I had an issue with them being sub-par by western standards, or even that I had any interest in changing the status quo in that department. If you read back, my initial comment said simply that most of what I own is produced in some way in 'less than salubrious condition's.' And that I'd accepted that. I'm not quite sure what you're debating with here....

But we can, and we have. Due to activism, the minimum wage in Indonesia doubled in real terms over the 1990s, although there was a related increase in unemployment as factories moved offshore. However, direct activism against Nike led to them driving reform among the factories producing their shoes, increasing wages and drastically improving working conditions. Studies have shown campaigns produce on average a 50% increase in real wages, with no related loss in employment.

There is a record of these campaigns making a difference.

Interesting. How precisely did this 'activism' work? Did enough people stop buying Nike their sales showed a direct decline in correlation with the activism? Were Nike officials kidnapped and held hostage until wages were increased? Did a couple of people happen to be outside a Nike store with placards at the same time Panorama did an embarassing documentary?

Just saying campaigns and activism are effective is well and good, but I would be genuinely interested in seeing what evidence there is to back that up.

I would also point out that culture and government vary from place to place, and just because 'activism' worked in one country is no guarantee of it being successful in another.

Yeah, philosophy is fun and all but there's a point where you just have to say 'it is objectively good that a person has a reduced chance of losing their life in an industrial accident'.

Not in the OT zone there isn't!

I actually made a post a year or so back (in one of those recasting threads), where I argued that insubstantial things like morals could not possibly be objective. However there was a larger system of morals enforced by society, and whilst morals could be subjective to the society as a rule, ultimately they could not be entirely subjective to the person due to them springing from that society, and not being able to change their mental conditioning and upbringing. Morals were ultimately subjective, but a person could only go so far in deviating from the standards they were raised with, and as a result of that, morals are not entirely subjective for the individual, even if they are for society as a whole.

It was a lot more detailed, and complex than that, but those were the basic points. I was actually quite chuffed with it since it was something I'd come up with on my own.