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MadEdric wrote:I'm surprised no one mentions Psybolt ammo.
For minimal points shooting weapons gain 1 pt of ST. First ever increase in shooting ST in the game.

This is because of people with their heads up their arses are obsessed with rules lawyering with DK riding storm ravens that is going to probably be FAQed.

To be on topic tho, the most broken rule ive seen is fortitude at the cost 5 points. This becomes ridiculous when land raiders need not get extra armor that costs 15 points.

I think Jidmah wrapped that one up ...

even if you disagree ...

I think that having a MC in a Raven is just as ridiculous as saying that a MC is some how no longer an MC ...

which I believe is why the Raven even got brought up in the 1st place.

and really how many people truly believe that the 75pt upgrade is intended to undo the other 130+ built in points ...

Not that this couldn't be done! just highly unlikely * in this case!

and why the heck are people arguing and calling people rules lawyers when all in all your doing the same?

I'm trying to say if you believe that it is intended to be a MC that moves as JI ....

Than why the hell argue against it or against points meant to help bolster that point? Seems kinda of silly ....

Maybe this is why GW behaves the way it does ???

We set the demand / we are the demand ...




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Back on topic!

My favorite "broken rule"

Force Weapons

Of all the stupid...

fine. 'Units equipped with Personal Teleporters are jump infantry.' Your Dreadknight has only one teleporter, so you payed 75 points for an upgrade that does nothing. Now gtfo and stop being selectively obtuse. Actually I don't know why I'm surprised, this happens with every codex, from the who claimed Mawlocs couldn't do what their special ability said they could do to the who argued that Blood Angels Assault Marines kept their DOA rules if you took the jetpack off, and that vehicles deepstriking with DOA models on board also got the scatter reduction.

Yuber wrote:2 cents:

I know alot of people in Dakka are competitive, rules lawyers.

But please let us put those aside. Some people say RAW is better than RAI, or vise versa. Answer is, none of them are absolutely correct or preferable. By the end of the day its a mix of both coupled with common sense.

1) Lets use this thing called "COMMON SENSE" for a while.

I know that the codex rules doesn't support any of these rules you have mentioned, but lets face it, GW has always been stupid regarding rules writing, but its up to us to use some common sense to cover their shortcomings.

2)I am a RAW person myself, but only if the rules make sense. Its better to be a person who clearly has common sense rather than the guy who needs every rule variation written out for him for EVERY INSTANCE AND SITUATION.

1)Where does common scenes come in with the Tyranid FAQ. Where models get cover saves against the DoM's spirit leech. Where a carnifex gets a cover save because a Tyranid prime nearby gets a cover save.

2) I believe it is somewhere in the rulebook that it actually says that you have to use common sense and interpret the rules in a certain way if a conflict comes up... not sure where i saw that though. Common sense rules... but people are butts. You have to be able to deal with rational and irrational people :-)


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quietus wrote:I think Jidmah wrapped that one up ...

even if you disagree ...

I think that having a MC in a Raven is just as ridiculous as saying that a MC is some how no longer an MC ...

which I believe is why the Raven even got brought up in the 1st place.

and really how many people truly believe that the 75pt upgrade is intended to undo the other 130+ built in points ...

Not that this couldn't be done! just highly unlikely * in this case!

Using tyranids again... toxic sacs on MC's. Make them less effective in close combat against T4 models... so a large portion of infantry in the game.




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Kroot Loops wrote:Of all the stupid...

fine. 'Units equipped with Personal Teleporters are jump infantry.' Your Dreadknight has only one teleporter, so you payed 75 points for an upgrade that does nothing. Now gtfo and stop being selectively obtuse. Actually I don't know why I'm surprised, this happens with every codex, from the who claimed Mawlocs couldn't do what their special ability said they could do to the who argued that Blood Angels Assault Marines kept their DOA rules if you took the jetpack off, and that vehicles deepstriking with DOA models on board also got the scatter reduction.

With the Mawloc.. there is nothing that says you can't place a model where another model already is. DOA says that models with jump packs have it right? As for LR... yea that is a dumb argument, but I am not sure how the rule is worded.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:Of all the stupid...

fine. 'Units equipped with Personal Teleporters are jump infantry.' Your Dreadknight has only one teleporter, so you payed 75 points for an upgrade that does nothing. Now gtfo and stop being selectively obtuse. Actually I don't know why I'm surprised, this happens with every codex, from the who claimed Mawlocs couldn't do what their special ability said they could do to the who argued that Blood Angels Assault Marines kept their DOA rules if you took the jetpack off, and that vehicles deepstriking with DOA models on board also got the scatter reduction.

With the Mawloc.. there is nothing that says you can't place a model where another model already is. DOA says that models with jump packs have it right? As for LR... yea that is a dumb argument, but I am not sure how the rule is worded.

Not to Side track too much, but all of them have been FAQ'd. You could not place a model on top of another for deepstriking. However the belief that GW gave the Mawloc a special rule that only works if it scatters on to another unit was being selectively obtuse. Assault Marines had the typical unprofessional work of GW. In equipment the Jetpack says equipped models have the DOA rule. Assault Marines come equipped with jetpacks. Therefore, instead of just leaving it at that, since the models come with the packs standard, the wrote DOA as one of the unit's special rules. The Stormraven/LR argument, yeah, that was pure conjuration.

@ wisdomeyes:
-How does a carnifex get cover save from a Prime?
-Toxis Sacs on MC's arent THAT bad because they reroll to wound.

I think the point is FAQ is needed to satisfy a mass scale RAW ...

So In terms of the time in between ...

it is more easy than not to see it being meant as moves like: JI

So I guess what I'm saying is why argue about it so seriously, in a game and in this situation I think most would go off of RAI ... right? MC that moves like JI ...

Yuber wrote:@ wisdomeyes:
-How does a carnifex get cover save from a Prime?
-Toxis Sacs on MC's arent THAT bad because they reroll to wound.

Prime joins a Carnifex, the prime stands in area terrain, therefore 1/2 the unit is in cover so the whole unit gets cover. However this seems unlikely to happen often, as granting one carnifex cover saves doesn't seem too productive.

I typically see Primes used in one of three ways:

Attached to a Squad of warriors to bump up their stats
Attached to a full squad of 'fex to provide a lashwhip and more attacks
attached to Swarmlord and tyrant guard in the 'nid star.

Back to GK:
Warpquake is up there. The ability to (some builds more than others) shut down deep strike as a deployment option is going to be a problem for some armies (though none more than daemons)

Kroot Loops wrote:

Yuber wrote:@ wisdomeyes:
-How does a carnifex get cover save from a Prime?
-Toxis Sacs on MC's arent THAT bad because they reroll to wound.

Prime joins a Carnifex, the prime stands in area terrain, therefore 1/2 the unit is in cover so the whole unit gets cover. However this seems unlikely to happen often, as granting one carnifex cover saves doesn't seem too productive.

I typically see Primes used in one of three ways:

Attached to a Squad of warriors to bump up their stats
Attached to a full squad of 'fex to provide a lashwhip and more attacks
attached to Swarmlord and tyrant guard in the 'nid star.

Back to GK:
Warpquake is up there. The ability to (some builds more than others) shut down deep strike as a deployment option is going to be a problem for some armies (though none more than daemons)

I thought there was a rule that an IC cannot join a unit with a single model... Then again, rules associated to that is clear.

Then again regarding daemons, they aren't that gimped with warpquake since Bloodthirsters are anti GK thanks to blessing of the blood god.

The rule is that it cannot join a unit that is always only a single model. Fexes can now be brooded, and so can be joined.

Khorne daemons are awesome, and will come as a nasty shock to GK. Other god-themed daemon armies are somewhat hosed.

Rules says that IC's can't join units that always consist of 1 model. You may have a brood of carnifex. Therefore you can join the prime.

TS makes you pay 10 points to loose effectiveness. 4+ with rerolls or 2+. And you payed for the 4+ with rerolls. I guess if you are often against T5+ models, then sure (this is not applying the S5 MC's, who only lose effectiveness against T3 models)

Now, that was sort of on topic. It was relative to the current debate.

To make it look like i am doing something on this thread.. I have to ask. Deathcult assassins are 15 points... how is that right? I mean I guess I can't complain to much... they are a weaker version of banshees. But they improved a lot from last edition and cost way less.

The most broken rule though i will still have to stick with the 5 point fortification.

I'm also going to go with psybolt ammo. At 2 points per unit in a ten man squad, it seems somewhat OTT.

Yuber wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:

Yuber wrote:@ wisdomeyes:
-How does a carnifex get cover save from a Prime?
-Toxis Sacs on MC's arent THAT bad because they reroll to wound.

Prime joins a Carnifex, the prime stands in area terrain, therefore 1/2 the unit is in cover so the whole unit gets cover. However this seems unlikely to happen often, as granting one carnifex cover saves doesn't seem too productive.

I typically see Primes used in one of three ways:

Attached to a Squad of warriors to bump up their stats
Attached to a full squad of 'fex to provide a lashwhip and more attacks
attached to Swarmlord and tyrant guard in the 'nid star.

Back to GK:
Warpquake is up there. The ability to (some builds more than others) shut down deep strike as a deployment option is going to be a problem for some armies (though none more than daemons)

I thought there was a rule that an IC cannot join a unit with a single model... Then again, rules associated to that is clear.

Then again regarding daemons, they aren't that gimped with warpquake since Bloodthirsters are anti GK thanks to blessing of the blood god.

As noted, Carnifex no longer consist of a unit of 1 model.

Blessing of the blood god doesn't help you much if you automishap your deepstrike.

MadEdric wrote:I'm surprised no one mentions Psybolt ammo.
For minimal points shooting weapons gain 1 pt of ST. First ever increase in shooting ST in the game.

Tank Hunters (effectively)?

Knight Commander Pask?

i love how far this topic has changed from the original post lol look someone even brought up commander pask

He's a legend!

Jidmah wrote:Knight Commander Pask?

Tank Hunters was around before him, no?

Jidmah wrote:He's a legend!

That's a Commissar though, isn't it?

The guy looks much like Pask, though his model does not have the sword.

Blessing of the blood god doesn't help you much if you automishap your deepstrike.

Isn't the range on warpquake 12"? daemons tend to not get that close anyway... If we can't charge, why would we let you? XD

Though there is always that change you scatter towards them... but mishaps don't happen as often as people make it sound.

the problem is when those Strike Squads are able to scout in their Rhinos.


4 Strike Squads can cover about 80% of a 4x4 board, leaving very narrow safe lanes for Deep Strike. this either boxs the Deamons in to tight places, or mishaps them away for destruction or Rinse and repeats.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Blessing of the blood god doesn't help you much if you automishap your deepstrike.

Isn't the range on warpquake 12"? daemons tend to not get that close anyway... If we can't charge, why would we let you? XD

Though there is always that change you scatter towards them... but mishaps don't happen as often as people make it sound.

2 units of strikes and 2 interceptor squads can cover most of the board in 1 turn. If daemons go second, they auto lose to that. In case you are curious: 2 squads shunt 30, cover daemons side with 2 24 diameter bubbles. The non shunting units cover the friendly territory and midfield not covered by the shunting units. There will be little gaps around the edges, but trust me, you won't hit enough units in that space to have a chance. After all, this derp strike defense is super cheap, and the GK player still has all those cannons and bolters from everything hitting what does come down.

ironhandstraken wrote:
secondly if you give a dreadknight a personal teleporter, it can ride in a stormraven because if you give it this it counts as jump infantry and it only takes up 2 spot.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

This is not possible. The DK becomes an MC that moves 12 inches. This is similar to a daemon prince with wings.

By your logic the DK also looses the ability to roll 2d6 AP as well as many other things.

Again NO!

Sothas wrote:

ironhandstraken wrote:
secondly if you give a dreadknight a personal teleporter, it can ride in a stormraven because if you give it this it counts as jump infantry and it only takes up 2 spot.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

This is not possible. The DK becomes an MC that moves 12 inches. This is similar to a daemon prince with wings.

By your logic the DK also looses the ability to roll 2d6 AP as well as many other things.

Again NO!

YES! NO! MAYBE!

It doesn't say it becomes an MC that moves like JI, it says it BECOMES JI. This results in a rules breakdown that is currently being debated in YMDC.

As a side note, why the feth would anyone put a dreadknight in a Stormraven?

Because they think they can?

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Blessing of the blood god doesn't help you much if you automishap your deepstrike.

Isn't the range on warpquake 12"? daemons tend to not get that close anyway... If we can't charge, why would we let you? XD

Though there is always that change you scatter towards them... but mishaps don't happen as often as people make it sound.

12" radius from any and every member of the squad+scatter+foot print of the unit.

The Deamon does not get to pre measure the distance, they have to guess using a mark 1 eyeball.

Deamon player guesses a spot is 20" away, it turns out to be 18.5" away, scatter drifts it 5" closer to 13.5" away, foot print of the unit is >1.5" in radius, and the unit is now within 12".

Any mishap is bad. The unit is either destroyed outright, deployed by the opposing player in the worst possible location, or delayed 1 turn while the rest of the deamon army has to fight against an army tooled to kill deamons while outnumbered and getting screwed by having reserves delayed by mishaps.

notabot187 wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Blessing of the blood god doesn't help you much if you automishap your deepstrike.

Isn't the range on warpquake 12"? daemons tend to not get that close anyway... If we can't charge, why would we let you? XD

Though there is always that change you scatter towards them... but mishaps don't happen as often as people make it sound.

2 units of strikes and 2 interceptor squads can cover most of the board in 1 turn. If daemons go second, they auto lose to that. In case you are curious: 2 squads shunt 30, cover daemons side with 2 24 diameter bubbles. The non shunting units cover the friendly territory and midfield not covered by the shunting units. There will be little gaps around the edges, but trust me, you won't hit enough units in that space to have a chance. After all, this derp strike defense is super cheap, and the GK player still has all those cannons and bolters from everything hitting what does come down.

Would they be taking this in an all arounders list?

Absolutely, strike squads are required for anyone that isn't running a SC to get different troops, and interceptors are one of the best units in the codex.

Anyone playing against GK would do well to expect 2-6 units that can warp quake a majority of the board on turn 1.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sothas wrote:

ironhandstraken wrote:
secondly if you give a dreadknight a personal teleporter, it can ride in a stormraven because if you give it this it counts as jump infantry and it only takes up 2 spot.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

This is not possible. The DK becomes an MC that moves 12 inches. This is similar to a daemon prince with wings.

By your logic the DK also looses the ability to roll 2d6 AP as well as many other things.

Again NO!

YES! NO! MAYBE!

It doesn't say it becomes an MC that moves like JI, it says it BECOMES JI. This results in a rules breakdown that is currently being debated in YMDC.

As a side note, why the feth would anyone put a dreadknight in a Stormraven?

Dude really? A Daemon Prince with wings is still an MC, why would DK be different? This is just simply an attempt to exploit the rules. By the same logic it can ride in a rhino, razorback, chimera and land raider. This is just dumb.

It'll get FAQed. The only possible way I see this being ok, if they FAQ it that it uses the dreadnought spot on the stormraven. I would accept this personally, but not until it's FAQed. I'm going with no, it's an MC.

schadenfreude wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Blessing of the blood god doesn't help you much if you automishap your deepstrike.

Isn't the range on warpquake 12"? daemons tend to not get that close anyway... If we can't charge, why would we let you? XD

Though there is always that change you scatter towards them... but mishaps don't happen as often as people make it sound.

12" radius from any and every member of the squad+scatter+foot print of the unit.

The Deamon does not get to pre measure the distance, they have to guess using a mark 1 eyeball.

Deamon player guesses a spot is 20" away, it turns out to be 18.5" away, scatter drifts it 5" closer to 13.5" away, foot print of the unit is >1.5" in radius, and the unit is now within 12".

Any mishap is bad. The unit is either destroyed outright, deployed by the opposing player in the worst possible location, or delayed 1 turn while the rest of the deamon army has to fight against an army tooled to kill deamons while outnumbered and getting screwed by having reserves delayed by mishaps.

I know mishaps are bad... but I always have to use the chart... because it never happens. dangerous terrain come up quite a bit... but mishap tends to be for those who don't know how to deepstrike...

you also have to remember how much you are assuming. You assume I scatter (1/3 of the time I don't) you assume the direction (towards them), and you assume I can't judge distance :-)

It isn't like I expect a melta gun to NOT roll a 1 to hit or penetrate... but I also don't rely on just 1 melta gun :-) I make the chances good for me and hope for the best... there is no "plan" on can have for if you get a mishap.


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Sothas wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sothas wrote:

ironhandstraken wrote:
secondly if you give a dreadknight a personal teleporter, it can ride in a stormraven because if you give it this it counts as jump infantry and it only takes up 2 spot.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

This is not possible. The DK becomes an MC that moves 12 inches. This is similar to a daemon prince with wings.

By your logic the DK also looses the ability to roll 2d6 AP as well as many other things.

Again NO!

YES! NO! MAYBE!

It doesn't say it becomes an MC that moves like JI, it says it BECOMES JI. This results in a rules breakdown that is currently being debated in YMDC.

As a side note, why the feth would anyone put a dreadknight in a Stormraven?

Dude really? A Daemon Prince with wings is still an MC, why would DK be different? This is just simply an attempt to exploit the rules. By the same logic it can ride in a rhino, razorback, chimera and land raider. This is just dumb.

You have not listened to a single argument on this entire thread have you.

There is a difference between wings and the personal tele... there is a reason that daemon princes can take wings and not jump packs (which if I remember correctly says that the unit IS jump infantry)