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Sephyr wrote:
-Chaos pays 20 points for Daemonic possession ad it makes vehicles shoot as bad as Tau forewarriors. GK vehicles get it for a quarter of the cost with no downsides.

Not a psychic power, never fails.

As a psychic power it can be stopped by psychic hoods and other forms of psychic defence, which show up in a large chunk of competitive lists. It can also fail with an 11 or a 12, or Perils with snake eyes and damage itself again. Eldar laugh as you try and pass on 3D6 and get Perils over and over again.

On a Rhino yes is probably overcosted, because Rhinos don't do much shooting anyway and because its included at the base price you can't get around it (as an example in other armies how many people use Extra Armour on their Rhinos?). On Razorbacks its annoying and imo appropriately costed, at the end of the day they are still AV11 vehicles and aren't any harder to kill.

In any case comparing Fortitude to Possession isn't really a good comparison. The CSM book is a 4th edition codex, which wasn't exactly top of the line when it was released (Lash whining aside) and has only got more dated since then. The GK book is powerful and a major reboot, but is in line with the power level of all the other 5th edition codices.

Darkjediben wrote:

Sephyr wrote:
-Chaos pays 20 points for Daemonic possession ad it makes vehicles shoot as bad as Tau forewarriors. GK vehicles get it for a quarter of the cost with no downsides.

Not a psychic power, never fails.

That's a bullcrap answer, it is a psychic power on Ld 10, so it goes off 89.9% of the dang time. If you don't think it should be the full price, fine, but considering the fact that it lets you shoot at the normal BS AS WELL as the benefits of demonic possession, it sure as hell shouldn't be only a quarter of the points. Anyone who doesn't think GK rhinos are undercosted is either lying to themselves or is TFG.

Grey Templar wrote:

Darkjediben wrote:

Sephyr wrote:
-Chaos pays 20 points for Daemonic possession ad it makes vehicles shoot as bad as Tau forewarriors. GK vehicles get it for a quarter of the cost with no downsides.

Not a psychic power, never fails.

That's a bullcrap answer, it is a psychic power on Ld 10, so it goes off 89.9% of the dang time. If you don't think it should be the full price, fine, but considering the fact that it lets you shoot at the normal BS AS WELL as the benefits of demonic possession, it sure as @#!*% shouldn't be only a quarter of the points. Anyone who doesn't think GK rhinos are undercosted is either lying to themselves or is TFG.

have you considered this is because the CSM codex is utter and not because GKs are overpowered.

"Never attribute to Malice(GKs being intentionally OP) what can be attributed to Stupidity(CSM codex having overpriced upgrades)"

the quotes fethed up.


I said "have you considered this is because the CSM codex is utter and not because GKs are overpowered.

"Never attribute to Malice(GKs being intentionally OP) what can be attributed to Stupidity(CSM codex having overpriced upgrades)"


everything else is the other posters posts.

You know... I am wondering why it is doing that. I triple checked it, there is a end quote bracket symbol there... it just isn't boxing it...

This is so ridiculous that it is actually funny. Imagine the dreadknight, if is not a monstrous creature but a mere jump infantry, standing behind a grey knight just 1/10th his height.....and getting 3+ shrouded cover.

jy2 wrote:This is so ridiculous that it is actually funny. Imagine the dreadknight, if is not a monstrous creature but a mere jump infantry, standing behind a grey knight just 1/10th his height.....and getting 3+ shrouded cover.

You're a horrible, horrible person, you know that?

jy2 wrote:This is so ridiculous that it is actually funny. Imagine the dreadknight, if is not a monstrous creature but a mere jump infantry, standing behind a grey knight just 1/10th his height.....and getting 3+ shrouded cover.

There are stranger rules. (Bloodcrushers can climb stairs, Tyranid prime can join a carnifex to give it easy access to coversaves... which goes with the tyrant and her guard as well, and more that i could list be really don't feel i need to..)

Tomb spiders in necrons do the same exact thing actually. One of their little guys hides and all of a sudden the MC gets a 3+ cover save.

Darkjediben wrote:
That's a bullcrap answer, it is a psychic power on Ld 10, so it goes off 89.9% of the dang time. If you don't think it should be the full price, fine, but considering the fact that it lets you shoot at the normal BS AS WELL as the benefits of demonic possession, it sure as hell shouldn't be only a quarter of the points. Anyone who doesn't think GK rhinos are undercosted is either lying to themselves or is TFG.

I play Eldar, so I'm not too damn worried about Ld 10 psychic powers.

'1) I like Ailaros's answer.
2) What "benefits" are lost on a S10 power weapon wielder is the 2D6 armor pen (boo-hoo) and relentless. He gains the "I can fit in a storm raven haha!" and cover saves more easily accessible. With a 5++ save... those cover saves would be nice.
3) DCCW's? '




3- Dreadnought close combat weapons-

Until fethhead Ward put them on the Dreadknight (who isn't a dreadnought, and thus can't use them) Monstrous Creatures didn't get to use them, not being dreadnoughts, you know...

Jump Infantry REALLY can't Up until now, at least, apparently...

Are Dreadknights S 10 naturally (without DCCW)? I've not got the book, not do I ever intend to


*edited for being multininja'd while my computer chugged along..*

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

1) I like Ailaros's answer.
2) What "benefits" are lost on a S10 power weapon wielder is the 2D6 armor pen (boo-hoo) and relentless. He gains the "I can fit in a storm raven haha!" and cover saves more easily accessible. With a 5++ save... those cover saves would be nice.
3) DCCW's?

RAQ if it says a deamon prince moves as jump infantry it's a MC that moves like jump infantry.
RAW if it says the DK becomes jump infantry then it becomes jump infantry and ceases to be a MC.

Pros=gain all benefits of being jump infantry
4+ cover if it's inside area terrain.
Can ride in a storm raven
IC can join the DK and form a 2 man squad as if it was a 1 man jump infantry squad, and they can then ride together taking 3 or 4 slots in a stormraven.

Cons=loose all benefits for being a MC
No relentless, DK must now remain immobile to shoot and can not assault if it shoots.
No 2D6 to pen vehicles

DCCW are still there as it's already equipped.

In order for a DK to be both jump infantry and a MC at the same time the RAW needs to say that the DK is both jump infantry and continues to be a MC, but that's not what the RAW says.

RAI=completely subjective opinion so good luck if you're going to attempt to put a DK in a stormraven in a tournament setting. Until GW FAQs it the TO will have to FAQ it, and your entire battle plan is dependent on the FAQ ruling of a TO. If a lot of Dakkites are giving you flak by saying RAI=moves as jump infantry what are the odds a TO will rule RAI=moves as jump infantry?

'DCCW are still there as it's already equipped'

DCCW are equipped, but the text on a DCCW is that it doubles a WALKER'S (emphasis mine) strength in close combat. The Dreadknight isn't a Walker. (unless they have a different wording than the rulebook on the DCCW in the codex). RAW would seem to indicate that they do jack..
(pg 73 Rulebook)

Unless we are arguing that the Dreadknight is simultaneously a Walker, a Monstrous Creature AND a Jump Infantry

I personally would run the jump infantry the way most every other codex has made something big fly- moves like Jump Infantry.

Perhaps they originally intended it to be a walker and didn't bother proofreading the codex? If it said it had powerfists (or so forth) there wouldn't be a rules issue.

schadenfreude wrote:
IC can join the DK and form a 2 man squad as if it was a 1 man jump infantry squad, and they can then ride together taking 3 or 4 slots in a stormraven.

Not possible, the DK is still a "unit always consisting of a single model". IC's not being able to join it isn't because it is a MC

Can't see why people even worry about this issue. Are your opponents really so silly that they will try to pull shenanigans such as this?

Illumini wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
IC can join the DK and form a 2 man squad as if it was a 1 man jump infantry squad, and they can then ride together taking 3 or 4 slots in a stormraven.

Not possible, the DK is still a "unit always consisting of a single model". IC's not being able to join it isn't because it is a MC

Can't see why people even worry about this issue. Are your opponents really so silly that they will try to pull shenanigans such as this?

I think it is more of a internet rage at poor proofreading. IRL and at tournaments, I'm pretty sure that your opponent would hit you with one of those sticks that come in the AoBR box if you tried to put the DK into the main cargo bay of a stormraven.

There is a reason no one likes this writer...

lets see if Robin Cruddace redeems himself (after the epic fail on tyranids fluff and getting rid of the few things that made them unique in favor of poisoned carnifexen ) with the new necrons codex whenever it is supposed to come out.

Rumor is pretty solid that Ward has that one. Cruddace was working on Tomb Kings.

What? Last I heard it was cruddace...

god do we really need him working on another codex? He has written half of them... :-/

Powerguy wrote:As a psychic power it can be stopped by psychic hoods and other forms of psychic defence, which show up in a large chunk of competitive lists. *Snip*

Hooray for competitive lists, now on to the rest of the world that plays for fun...

Seriously though, just because one thing or another is prevalent in competitive lists does not mean that's a viable defense against a complaint.

Kevin949 wrote:

Powerguy wrote:As a psychic power it can be stopped by psychic hoods and other forms of psychic defence, which show up in a large chunk of competitive lists. *Snip*

Hooray for competitive lists, now on to the rest of the world that plays for fun...

Seriously though, just because one thing or another is prevalent in competitive lists does not mean that's a viable defense against a complaint.

Yes it is. The mere fact that it can be stopped should be enough to tell you that it's not as good as daemonic possession in that sense.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Powerguy wrote:As a psychic power it can be stopped by psychic hoods and other forms of psychic defence, which show up in a large chunk of competitive lists. *Snip*

Hooray for competitive lists, now on to the rest of the world that plays for fun...

Seriously though, just because one thing or another is prevalent in competitive lists does not mean that's a viable defense against a complaint.

Yes it is. The mere fact that it can be stopped should be enough to tell you that it's not as good as daemonic possession in that sense.

I think you missed that I don't care about the actual argument set piece of whether it's as good as the daemonic possession ability. I was making a point that competitive lists are not the end-all answer and not EVERY army has a good anti-psyker defense.

Using "competitive" as a derogatory word is laugable kevin. You're basically saying "I don't play to win".

If you don't play with the intention of winning, but rather to "have fun", using your own set of criteria, then fine, more power to you. But don't come here and complain that units your opponent plays are unbeatable and therefore unfair.

They aren't, you simply aren't willing to do what it takes to actually win against them. Complaining here won't help you.

Edit: and nothing we say will change your mind if you're determined to play crappy lists that are "fluffy" or fit your own definition of fun. There are ways to beat anything in the game, with any army. You simply need to be willing actually open your mind and do them.

Bruteboss wrote:Using "competitive" as a derogatory word is laugable kevin. You're basically saying "I don't play to win".

If you don't play with the intention of winning, but rather to "have fun", using your own set of criteria, then fine, more power to you. But don't come here and complain that units your opponent plays are unbeatable and therefore unfair.

They aren't, you simply aren't willing to do what it takes to actually win against them. Complaining here won't help you.

Edit: and nothing we say will change your mind if you're determined to play crappy lists that are "fluffy" or fit your own definition of fun. There are ways to beat anything in the game, with any army. You simply need to be willing actually open your mind and do them.

That was.... Unnecessary....

'I was making a point that competitive lists are not the end-all answer and not EVERY army has a good anti-psyker defense. '

The man has a point, Bruteboss.

Tau- not a smidgen of psychic defense
Necrons- Pariahs- yeah, like they're worth it
Tyranids- SOTW- which is almost useless these days
Dark Eldar- Crucible (oneshot,and not all that potent) and Lady Malys being immune (and her squad). Big whoop.
Orks- Not a trace of Psyker defense.


Not everyone plays marines, dude.

Also theres a difference between competitive lists (where every unit is effective and supports each other well) and Comptetive lists (build from all the cheesier units, and with RAW loopholes on standby.

You can play a flufffy list that is also competitive. It is also possible to play a competitive list that doesn't use the 'win-button' broken as crud unit in every FOC slot it can, but has a mix of units that aren't so OP. You can usually spot a cheesefest list when all three of the same FOC section are the same unit with the same gear (guideline, not cast iron, but still...).

An example. Blood Angels Competetive lists these days seem to all be led by Mephiston, and are stuffed to bursting with twin-talon dreads in stormravens full of death company or sanguinary guard.

Competetive. Very, at least it shows up all the time around here..

Fluffy. not very- it doesn't really fit the Blood Angels fluff on how they fight. They have other people in the fight than the goldenboyz and the loonies


Or another example, so you don't think i'm just a Bangles hater- my own army -Orks

5 x 10 Nob bikers in a list, with 2 biker warbosses, biker painboyz and everyone with a different weapon for wound allocation shenanigans.

Unless Wazdakka is in charge of that waagh its not very fluffy at all, and stinks of Limberger. It's pretty Competitive though, as the wound allocation mess will usually keep them pretty whole.

competitive i have no issue with. You can run a strong list that's still fluffy, with some variation of units and a theme.

Cheesefest (Competitive) i do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
'There are ways to beat anything in the game, with any army. You simply need to be willing actually open your mind and do them. '

It's not so much that the unit can be beaten, it's that it usually takes disproportionate amounts of your army to counter it for its points value.

An example-

Orks vs a Landraider, at range. You have to fire just about every rokkit in your army at it (several hundred points) to have a chance of damaging it. It's not impossible, but it will take more points per turn countering it than it's cost effective to use if you want to damage something else

I'm not saying that this makes a Landraider OP or unfair, (i quite like them) but it does present a challenge to a race that has an issue with high strength weaponry, requiring more resources to destroy.

Now imagine an army with several of these, with everyone hiding inside, cowering in their Terminator armour, while the Baal Predators and Fast Vindicators dispatch the horde It's effective, but not exactly entertaining for one player, while the other one isn't exactly playing true to the 'heroic' feel of the Space Marine these days.

If you played them like their supposed to act you'd likely lose more of them, and might even lose the game (how horrific a concept) but i'd bet both players would enjoy playing the game a lot more. That is unless you're the type that believes that 40k is a solo game, with the other guy there to move the bad guys for you ;0)

My apologies if I came off too harshly but these arguments have come up before and they're getting tiresome.

Psychic defense is a two way street. People who point to it must think that GK will lay down and quietly die the second a hood, or eldar runes appear on the field.

What answer does GK have against psychic defense? Lots, and the best players will quickly learn to deal with it and win.

The same applies to armies that lack psychic defense playing against GK. If psychic powers are so devastating, units like runepriests and chaos sorcerers must be unbeatable right?

The answer is no, people have adapted and learned to deal with it, because each codex has its own solutions to these problems.

If you don't play an army with the "I win psychic defense" button against GK, do what everyone will be doing anyways: shoot and assault them to death.

'do what everyone will be doing anyways: shoot and assault them to death. '

Now there's a philsophy i can get behind

These arguments come up EVERY time a codex gets revamped. I'm a competitive player, but not a WAAC cheeseboard. I like my armies to have a theme, and a bit of fluff to them, but that doesn't mean i'm not going to stick it to the enemy good and hard. A varied list feels more right to me that a 'Power-win list' that someone posts on the internet, built from the cheesiest interpretations and units.

Sorry to rip on you too, Bruteboss. I get tired of the WAAC around here using similar arguments to justify their BS lists. Insult not intended

Psychic powers can be a beast vs orks though, especially SW ones. I hate JOTWW sniping my ICs and Nobz, with no real chance of survival, and have lost whole armies on the brink of victory to Njal's i-fry-everything-in-range storms. Zogging him into a squig is sweeet revenge, but you have to be awful close to do that one

Ascalam wrote:
Tau- not a smidgen of psychic defense
Necrons- Pariahs- yeah, like they're worth it
Tyranids- SOTW- which is almost useless these days
Dark Eldar- Crucible (oneshot,and not all that potent) and Lady Malys being immune (and her squad). Big whoop.
Orks- Not a trace of Psyker defense.

Chaos Marines also have zip, other than Kharn's immunity. IG don't have much psychic defense either, but they can make up for it with volume.

But it's ok. Usually people are happy comparing any newcomer army only to the top-tier 'competitive' ones. So if it doesn't instantly obliterate SW, BA and IG, it's clearly balanced!

to tell you the truth,

there isn't much Psychic defense other then Hoods, Shadow, and Runes.



Fortunantly, Psychic powers don't have massive effects on the game. they are mostly either shooting weapons or some augmentive abilities.

Psychic powers arn't game breaking so there really doesn't need to be anti-psychic things everywhere. it's not Warhammer where magic is very important. you can ignore Psykers and do just fine.

Grey Templar wrote:

Darkjediben wrote:

Sephyr wrote:
-Chaos pays 20 points for Daemonic possession ad it makes vehicles shoot as bad as Tau forewarriors. GK vehicles get it for a quarter of the cost with no downsides.

Not a psychic power, never fails.

That's a bullcrap answer, it is a psychic power on Ld 10, so it goes off 89.9% of the dang time. If you don't think it should be the full price, fine, but considering the fact that it lets you shoot at the normal BS AS WELL as the benefits of demonic possession, it sure as hell shouldn't be only a quarter of the points. Anyone who doesn't think GK rhinos are undercosted is either lying to themselves or is TFG.

have you considered this is because the CSM codex is utter and not because GKs are overpowered.

"Never attribute to Malice(GKs being intentionally OP) what can be attributed to Stupidity(CSM codex having overpriced upgrades)"

It's also comparing an 11.1% failure rate (which will result in the unit popping smoke instead of shooting) to a significant decrease in firepower.
Deamonic possession decreases the BS to 3 which results in far fewer hits.
BS4 to BS3=33% less hits
TLBS4 to TLBS3=18.4% less hits.

Deamonic possession has always been way overpriced (though the codex overall was really powerful), while GK psychic pilots are way underpriced.

When upgrades like deamonic possession are overpriced GW will just ignore the problem until the next edition of the codex comes out.

When units are underpriced and have questionable FAQ rulings GW tends to take their sweet time with the FAQ hoping that models will be purchased, and then FAQs against the model in question. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that crucible of malediction and other FAQ questionable anti psyker gear will all eventually be FAQd to work on GK vehicles & dreads.

Grey Templar wrote:to tell you the truth,

1.)there isn't much Psychic defense other then Hoods, Shadow, and Runes.



2.)Fortunantly, Psychic powers don't have massive effects on the game. they are mostly either shooting weapons or some augmentive abilities.

Psychic powers arn't game breaking so there really doesn't need to be anti-psychic things everywhere. it's not Warhammer where magic is very important. you can ignore Psykers and do just fine.

1.) So... basically... 7 of the 14 races in the game... (though, DE have a psychic defense I thought? and Khorne daemons sort of have a psychic defense.)

2.) Fortunately I agree. The scary psychic powers that grey knights have only boost their combat skills. The fortitude is still annoying regardless however. Why buy extra armor when you get it free!!! (5 points more than a normal rhino)