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Legatto wrote:So the virtues of 30 man and 20 man blobs have been pointed out, but why not 40 man blobs? The idea is to outlast the enemy either way, so even though not everyone will get piled in it would still seem the extra bodies would help.

Legatto wrote:So the virtues of 30 man and 20 man blobs have been pointed out, but why not 40 man blobs? The idea is to outlast the enemy either way, so even though not everyone will get piled in it would still seem the extra bodies would help.

If you do get tied up by a walker or T7+ unit you will flip the table and burn down the building... But i guess that's what Priests with Eviscerators are for

To be fair this has been kinda picked up on with it being one of the advanatages of 20man PIS; if you need a bigger blob it it's an option

Peace Out!
Jonny!

ElCheezus wrote:To put it another way, I've never had the points. Even if I had 50 more points, I've got quite a few weapons I'd buy before MB or Krak on blobs. I'm sure they're a nice luxury, but I build squads based on minimum functionality to avoid bloat from upgrades, so I never get to add things like that until the list is done.

'

Fair enough.

Legatto wrote:So the virtues of 30 man and 20 man blobs have been pointed out, but why not 40 man blobs? The idea is to outlast the enemy either way, so even though not everyone will get piled in it would still seem the extra bodies would help.

The problem is, once you get to 40 man blobs they're just too hard to manuver and position properly and with 40 men, in one squad you're sacrificing a lot of flexibility. I'd rather take two tweny man blobs that I can combine into a 40 man blob if need be, just in the name of added flexibility.

Legatto wrote:So the virtues of 30 man and 20 man blobs have been pointed out, but why not 40 man blobs?

Because 20's and 30's are good enough to handle anything that power blobs can handle by themselves by themselves. If it's good enough to beat a 30-man blob, it will probably beat a 40-man blob. If it's not, then the extra dudes in the blob are wasted. Put it another way, they're not points-efficient (which is a problem that 30's also have, but much less so).

Plus, any time you'd want a 40-man blob, you can achieve basically the same effect by just placing 2 20-man blobs next to each other. See this game for example.

And yes, it is possible to tar pit power blobs, which sucks, given that that's what they're supposed to be doing to the bad guys. In a foot horde, that lascannon+missile launcher dread that your opponent has isn't going to do much... unless they decide to start a tea party with your 225+ point power blob in the middle of the board...

Legatto wrote:So the virtues of 30 man and 20 man blobs have been pointed out, but why not 40 man blobs? The idea is to outlast the enemy either way, so even though not everyone will get piled in it would still seem the extra bodies would help.

Currently my list has 2 platoons with 4 squads each. Would that be better run as 4 20 man blobs? 2 per platoon? Or one platoon with a blob of 30 and another blob of 20 with the second platoon having a blob of 30?

Also, when referring to the camo cloak giving the entire unit stealth, that only counts with the Lord Commissar right? Because it doesn't list commissars as having the ability to buy wargear. All it mentions is that "The Platoon Commander and/or Commissar may exchange his pistol and/or close-combat weapon for:"

The 40 man blob is too unwieldy. You're using four rows of ten, five rows of eight, or 2 rows of twenty. With 1" spacing, that's 360 square inches or two and a half square feet. Your average gaming table is 24 square feet. Do you really want one squad taking up a tenth of the table? Plus moving them takes forever.

So then 20 - 20 - 20 - 20 or 30 - 20 - 30?

And can any one answer the commissar question?

Legatto wrote:So then 20 - 20 - 20 - 20 or 30 - 20 - 30?

And can any one answer the commissar question?

There is no question about it, every good blob needs a Commissar with a power weapon.

I'd go with 21 x4.

The commissar question about Camo Cloaks? That's only the Lord Commissar that can buy one.

ElCheezus wrote:I'd go with 21 x4.

The commissar question about Camo Cloaks? That's only the Lord Commissar that can buy one.

Yeah the 21 x 4 seems to be where I am leaning. Thanks for answering the Commissar thing, it seemed a bit too good to be true.

Legatto wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:I'd go with 21 x4.

The commissar question about Camo Cloaks? That's only the Lord Commissar that can buy one.

Yeah the 21 x 4 seems to be where I am leaning. Thanks for answering the Commissar thing, it seemed a bit too good to be true.

Again, though I definitely lean toward 21-man blobs, if your opponents routinely wipe them out, you might look at 31s again.

Having just played a game against Grey Knights, I find that the Draigo Paladin squad was just too much for a 21 man blob to handle. I'd have been much more comfortable with either a 31, or even 41 man blob.

Right, 21's are vaguely better, but you do have to be on guard - there are things that can take 21-man power blobs.

When you take more smaller ones, you can do a lot more with fieldcraft, but you also need to rely more on fieldcraft to be successful.

When I'm running IG, I'm always on GUARD!!!! hahahahahahahahahahahahah..... just me?

ChrisWWII wrote:Having just played a game against Grey Knights, I find that the Draigo Paladin squad was just too much for a 21 man blob to handle. I'd have been much more comfortable with either a 31, or even 41 man blob.

Dear god, I hope they ate a 21-man blob. The 5-man squads I've used are 345 points, not counting Draigo. If a 21 blob took them down, they'd be even worse than most people say.

That said, an equivalent-points blob (41) would probably munch through them in time. If my opponent put down 2-wound terminators, I know I'd probably want to combine my two 21s into a 42.

ChrisWWII wrote:Having just played a game against Grey Knights, I find that the Draigo Paladin squad was just too much for a 21 man blob to handle. I'd have been much more comfortable with either a 31, or even 41 man blob.

That doesn't mean you should simply add more meat to the grinder- use your men more wisely! Sometimes, blob squads are as much a disadvantage as they are an advantage.

For example, if you did not have a blob squad during that game and simply pitted two 10 man infantry squads against the paladin squad, you might have forced him to go through one unit at a time. After he wipes out a unit, Draigo's unit is done for the turn. Take this opportunity to open fire with everything, and throw another 10 man infantry squad in his face. You will have a lot easier time shooting them down than whittling them down with S3 attacks, powered or not.

You don't have to be a ruthless infantry commander when using footslogging IG. Guardsmen have families too.

ElCheezus wrote:
Dear god, I hope they ate a 21-man blob. The 5-man squads I've used are 345 points, not counting Draigo. If a 21 blob took them down, they'd be even worse than most people say.

That said, an equivalent-points blob (41) would probably munch through them in time. If my opponent put down 2-wound terminators, I know I'd probably want to combine my two 21s into a 42.

What surprised me was how quickly they ate the 21 man blob, even with me on the charge. I dind't expect to destroy him with the 20 blob, but I did expect to tie him up for a turn or two while I sent more blobs in against him.

Redscare wrote:

That doesn't mean you should simply add more meat to the grinder- use your men more wisely! Sometimes, blob squads are as much a disadvantage as they are an advantage.

For example, if you did not have a blob squad during that game and simply pitted two 10 man infantry squads against the paladin squad, you might have forced him to go through one unit at a time. After he wipes out a unit, Draigo's unit is done for the turn. Take this opportunity to open fire with everything, and throw another 10 man infantry squad in his face. You will have a lot easier time shooting them down than whittling them down with S3 attacks, powered or not.

You don't have to be a ruthless infantry commander when using footslogging IG. Guardsmen have families too.

1) Screw their families. Not like they're ever gonna see them again anyway.
2) He had strike squads and dreadnoughts besides his strike squad. This was a 1500 point game, and I had other priorities than draigo. Besides, most of my firepower was 3 vanilla Lemans, (Demolishers and an Executioner would have been much better, along with the powerblobs, I think they might have eaten Draigo alive), and their AP3 would have been useless, though it was effective against his Strike Squads.

Besides, the way powerblobs work it's better to be assaulting than not. If I'm not assaulting with a 21 man blob I can get 56 lasgun shots with 12" and FRFSRF, none of which ignore armor, and maybe if I'm lucky I'll cause one or two wounds. (Someone else can do the mathhammer) If I charge, I get 12 power weapon attacks, and 36 regular attacks. I'd take that over the lasgun shots any day thank you very much.

Besides, they ate through 21 man powerblobs in 2 assault phases, a 10 man squad would have just let him consolidate closer to me with each squad I threw at him.

ChrisWWII wrote: (Someone else can do the mathhammer)

Your most likely result with 56 Las shots against T4, 2+ is 1 wound.

And with charging....

12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds, 5++ invul saves leave me with about the same.

I still hold it's better to attack though, even though the wounds caused are the same, I feel that it's better to take the charge from the Knights, and try to tarpit them then to shoot and get charged in turn.

Your most likely result for the power weapons is 1 wound, and your most likely result for the regular attacks is also 1 wound. So charging kills 1 more than shooting. Plus, you don't have to both get shot and give your opponent an extra attack from their charge. Don't forget that bolters and storm bolters are probably a blob's worst enemy.

Assaulting someone is usually more defensive than offensive for blobs, really. Except against other hordes. Against Orks or Genestealers (more than 8 or so), you want to shoot more unless you're certain of victory.

ChrisWWII wrote:I still hold it's better to attack though, even though the wounds caused are the same, I feel that it's better to take the charge from the Knights, and try to tarpit them then to shoot and get charged in turn.

Its often better to get the charge in rather then rapid fire if only to take the charge away from your opponent. The added little bit of movement could also be helpful if you are trying to eventually move somewhere else after combat (and assuming you win).

I would say you're better off with rapid fire against WS7+ units though, considering you'll only be hitting on 5's instead of 4's or if you are packing Plasmaguns in your blob squad for some reason.

ChrisWWII wrote:What surprised me was how quickly they ate the 21 man blob, even with me on the charge.

They tend not to be that common, but there are a few things that are an utter hard counter to blobs. For example, for roughly the price of a 31-man power blob with 3x meltaguns, you can get 6 MoK LC terminators. The termies charge the power blob and kill 18 on their turn, and then finish off the blob on the guard player's turn. Put another way, they destroy power blobs without even breaking stride (if anything, they go FASTER).

Thankfully, most of these options are pretty rare sights on the field.

Is it ever really worth it to go crazy and field 50 Guardsmen with 5 Commissars?
Looks like a minimum of 525 points with just a Power Weapon but with such a big unit you'd have to be using either Meltaguns or Meltabombs to stop from being tarpitted by a walker.

minigun762 wrote:Is it ever really worth it to go crazy and field 50 Guardsmen with 5 Commissars?
Looks like a minimum of 525 points with just a Power Weapon but with such a big unit you'd have to be using either Meltaguns or Meltabombs to stop from being tarpitted by a walker.

Apoc? But yeah, I consider walkers a high priority when I'm just running 20-man blobs. They'd be crazy-dangerous if you had a 50-man. More meltaboms and/or Krak Grenades to give you a chance of taking it down, I guess, but still.

Ailaros wrote:Right, 21's are vaguely better, but you do have to be on guard - there are things that can take 21-man power blobs.

When you take more smaller ones, you can do a lot more with fieldcraft, but you also need to rely more on fieldcraft to be successful.

Example being the 10 Witches with Hydra Blades I ran into the other night. The 21 was too small to even have a decent chance to strike back and only just large enough not to die the turn they were charged. A 31 would have been able to cause some damage and stop the DE from avoiding my retaliation. So 21s against most armies and 31s at a minimum against fast assault armies strikes me as the right balance.

The next question is wether or not you bother with any sort of heavy weapon at all for power blobs. But I'd imagine that's been covered elsewhere.

Did you run two 21's in the same platoon? I do two of my three blobs that way so I can make a 42 when presented with a unit that would eat a 21 too quickly. 10 Witches would still cause a lot of damage, but would probably fall to that many guardsmen. Part of the benefit of running multiple 21s is the flexibility to combine if necessary.

Heavy weapons are a resounding "no" from me. Heavy weapons are cheaper and more efficient on vehicles, which is part of why I prefer Hybrid. Even if you go for Heavy Weapons on infantry, they shouldn't go in blobs. In general, you blob up and add a commissar for CC survivability, which doesn't pay off if you sit still with heavy weapons.

I had two blobs from the same Platoon. It was the first time I had, both, faced new DE and used the 21s. What hurt the most was that the dang Witches are what ended up costing me the game. Not only did they kill my 21, they knocked out my Bane Wolf and left my Executioner immobilized with only sponson weapons. I must have poured 70+ shots into them over two turns just to break them. And that included a Heavy Bolter HWS using "Fire on my target!". And with all that fire concentrated on the Witches my ability to kill his reserving Raiders was dramatically reduced.

Next time I'l know better and field the full 43 (2x Commissars + 4x squads w/2x GL, 2x MG, 2x Vox, 4x Bolt Pistols & 6x Power Swords and a Ministorum Preacher) against DE regardless of mission.

Priests are too expensive. If you want more S3 attacks, the cost of a first buys you another unit with a power weapon. Plus, almost everything moves faster than you, so most often you will be getting assaulted rather than charging in yourself.

Meltabombs are popular to give you a chance against walkers, but I prefer to spend those points on meltaguns or nothing at all and just being careful what I let engage me.


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Ailaros wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:What surprised me was how quickly they ate the 21 man blob, even with me on the charge.

They tend not to be that common, but there are a few things that are an utter hard counter to blobs. For example, for roughly the price of a 31-man power blob with 3x meltaguns, you can get 6 MoK LC terminators. The termies charge the power blob and kill 18 on their turn, and then finish off the blob on the guard player's turn. Put another way, they destroy power blobs without even breaking stride (if anything, they go FASTER).

Thankfully, most of these options are pretty rare sights on the field.

Does this math consider that on average two of those terminators will drop to their return attacks

withershadow wrote:Priests are too expensive. If you want more S3 attacks, the cost of a first buys you another unit with a power weapon. Plus, almost everything moves faster than you, so most often you will be getting assaulted rather than charging in yourself.

If I used a Priest with Eviscerator I'd agree that they are overpriced. But on the whole mine is there more for the ability to act as an extra body with good stats and an invulnerable save. Sure a Commissar with Power Sword is the same points, but should the Blob actually get the Charge...

Good stats? They have T3 and 1 wound. If anything, you should keep them far away from the actual melee, out of btb contact as long as possible.

Anyway, 21-man blobs are more than adequate for the majority of stuff you'll face today, since everyone and their mother likes to field MSU in razorbacks. If facing something more substantial, 31 is more apropos. If you field two 21s, you can always combine them for a large squad of 42 which can be extremely difficult for even dedicated close combat specialists to deal with. 18 power weapon attacks hidden behind 36 ablative wounds is brutal.

As for the vox question, I like them. People say you don't need them because they are Ld9 with the commissar, but I disagree. Ld9 is far from infallible, and when you want that BiD for your meltas or to get them back in the fight after going to ground, you'll be grateful for that reroll.

Oh, and no tournament organizer worth his salt will let you stack multiple instances of hammerhand on a single unit. You can only benefit from the same buff once, otherwise a character with stealth joining a unit with stealth would gain +2 to their cover saves, or Creed and Straken could stack two instances of Furious Charge on stuff, or DC within range of Sanguinary priests would get two FNP rolls and double furious charge, etc. Please, that's just stupid.


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elite_dannux wrote:

Lonecoon wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:Bah, just proxy it for a few games or something. I'm sure having a S10 AP 1 no-center-of-blast melta pieplate popping up and removing terrain for 50 points would get old after a couple games. . . maybe. . . Same with the hidden power fists, double attacks, FNP and no need for Commissars. ::yawn::

Or buy the Wargames Factory Shock troopers for an eighth of the price. >_>

Problem is only that the W.F Shock Troopers are only 1/8th as cool as DKoK :(

The W.F. Shock Troopers are 1/8th as cool as Cadians, much less DKoK. Those W.F. models are hideous.

And the DKoK list is just wrong. I actually own enough of them to field two maxed out platoons and I could never bring myself to use that monstrous list (not to mention that I've never seen powerfists that would look good on the DKoK, and replacing all those lasguns with CCW+pistol would drive me insane).

withershadow wrote:Good stats? They have T3 and 1 wound. If anything, you should keep them far away from the actual melee, out of btb contact as long as possible.

True enough. But they do have 2 weapons and 2 base attacks. And since mine will always be with Straken or at least within 12" that's 4x S4 I4 attacks that re-roll any misses. Like I said, if he's there and the squad gets to charge he's worth every point. And if I get charged he'll get right up and in there to try and absorb any power weapons or fists. Win, win.