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I'd like to see the Thousand Sons still be loyal. And I'd like the Space Wolves to go to chaos!

Dark Wolves...........yes please

Corennus wrote:I'd like to see the Thousand Sons still be loyal. And I'd like the Space Wolves to go to chaos!

Dark Wolves...........yes please

Only if they all had Hispanic accents and were of south american decent, and we could rename them "Los negro lobos"

Swap Night Lords and the Raven Guard?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

candy.man wrote:I thought about this a while back and even wrote down some ideas for a mirrored 40k universe in the fluff section of the forum (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328578.page). Due to the way the loyalist/written character traits were designed, a lot of the traitor legions tend to make better heroes and a lot of the loyalists make better villains.

Ultimately, if I could rewrite 40k, I’d put someone other than Horus as the arch traitor. This ultimately would affect the mix of loyalists and traitors but I think we’d get a more balanced atmosphere out of it (see below). We’d have loyalists who are more anti heroic and traitors who are more slippery and conniving.

Traitors
Ultramarines (Guilliman as the Arch Traitor)
Space Wolves (Khorne)
Salamanders (Nurgle)
DA (Tzeentch)
White Scars (Slaanesh)
Word Bearers
BA (daemonic vampires FTW)
Raven Guard
Imperial Fists

Loyalists
Luna Wolves
World Eaters
Thousand Sons
Emperor’s Children
Death Guard
Iron Hands
Alpha Legion
Night Lords
Iron Warriors

I don't know how I feel about Salamanders being traitor, y'know being the humanitarian marines and all that. But then again with Papa Nurgle, it kinda works out.
So basically you've got most of the traitors turned loyal and vice versa, save the Iron Hands and Word Bearers. Would very much like to see the reasoning! It'd make a most interesting story!

Looking back, I'd think the Word Bearers would probably be doing the best post heresy if they weren't traitors. Spreading the faith in the emporer and all that, but then again you do have the BT's....

I would like to read the reasoning behind traitor fists (as they're always described as being the most loyal and trustworthy of any legion), without having to read an entire thread...hint...hint,hint,hint.

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Swap Night Lords and the Raven Guard?

I really doubt anyone would realize the difference its not like youd see either of them coming

ChronoCupcake wrote:

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Swap Night Lords and the Raven Guard?

I really doubt anyone would realize the difference its not like youd see either of them coming

Batman vs. ninja

There IS a difference

@im2randomghgh
LOL. The thread isn’t that hard to read as it’s in dot point form and categorised by legion (therefore your able to read the fluff on only the legions your interested in).

I wouldn’t say that the loyalist in the cannon are the most loyal, it’s just that the first person perspective writing that is apparent in a lot of the codices tend to be overly biased. In my opinion, all of the founding legions were more or less evenly loyal and each legion had their own grievances. The traitors in the cannon are a result of misfortune and Horus’ manipulations. My fluff basically tweaks a few events slightly to get a different result. To quote three examples (as quoting all 8 would be time consuming) I turned the DA traitor by making the fluff of the Lion being a traitor true, I turned the Space Wolves traitor by linking the wolf gods of Fenris to Khorne and I turned the BA traitor by Guilliman tricking Sanguinius (see dot points below).


Dark Angels
• Astelan’s recollection of events in the novel “Angels of Darkness” (where Lion was purposely late in arriving on Terra) is correct.
• Lion was not banished into the warp but saved by Tzeentch at the last minute.
• Lion later reappears to his legion to execute Luther and advise his chapter that “all is well”.
• Lion, slowly but surely, leads his legion down the path of damnation and following the changer of ways. Those who did not convert to chaos were executed or turned into chaos spawn.
• Lion currently rules over his legion in the Eye of Terror as a Daemon Prince. Lion is now known as the Lion of Change.
• Cypher and his renegade faction “Fallen Angels” are known to mysteriously appear and assist imperial forces in thwarting the Dark Angel’s plans.
• The Fallen Angels believe that if they can destroy the Dark Angels, it will absolve their legion of its sins.
• The Dark Angels bear a strong hatred for the Fallen Angels.

Space Wolves
• Wolf Gods of Fenris linked to Khorne
• Prior Khornate worship became apparent during the attack on the Thousand Sons.
• Leman Russ was rewarded with daemonhood by his “true God” after he killed Magnus the Red.
• Legion is actively led by Logan Grimnar, the high king of Skulls.
• After the legion embraced their new god, they sided with Guilliman and his campaign against the imperium.
• Daemon Wolf Leman Russ and his horde were defeated by the World Eaters during the first war for Armageddon. Daemon Wolf Leman Russ was banished by the Grey Knights for 100 years and a day.
• All Rune Priests/Psykers were killed when the legion fully embraced Khornate worship.
• Ragnar Blackmane is now a mad butcher like Kharn the Betrayer in the cannon universe.

Blood Angels
• Tricked by Guilliman during Heresy as Sanguinius was unaware of Guilliman’s treachery.
• Guilliman tricked Sanguinius because he knew Sanguinius wouldn’t betray the emperor and he feared Sanguinius’ intervention would ruin his plans. • Sanguinius was tricked by Guilliman into believing that the Wold Eater’s legion had turned traitor. Rivalry with the World Eaters clouded Sanguinius’ judgement.
• The Blood Angels experienced heavy loses after getting caught on the wrong side during the heresy and Istvaan V massacre. The loyalist legions assumed the Blood Angels legion was another traitor legion that sided with Guilliman.
• Sanguinius died during the Isvaan massacre when Angron broke Sanguinius’ back over his knee.
• Distraught of over the primarch’s death and their legions grim situation as traitors, the legion’s prayers were answered by the chaos gods who offered them salvation over oblivion.
• Following the acceptance of their new masters, the legion assisted the traitor legions in the final assault on terra.
• The legion are followers of chaos undivided and reside in a daemon world in the Eye of Terror. The daemon world resembles their home planet.
• Currently ruled by Blood Lord Dante and Mephiston, Daemon Prince of Death.
• Red Thirst + exposure to the warp have created strange and rapid mutations amongst the chapter. It is common for a blood angel marine to grow large black feathered wings as well as large fangs and claws.
• Legion is infamous for their brutal winged assaults and drinking the blood of their enemies.
• Legion now resembles a pack of winged, blood thirsty vampires than the noble angelic warriors they once were.
• The entire army now wears a Death Company style armour/colour scheme.

Loyalist 1k Sons = kick-ass psyker battle squads (f k your GK)

The one loyalist legion I would love to see turn traitor would be DA. Because if they did, wouldn't they hunt their loyalist brethern as the current DA hunt the Fallen? Plus I want to have Chaos-y Deathwing... would love to see Matt Ward write that codex....

candy.man wrote:@im2randomghgh
LOL. The thread isn’t that hard to read as it’s in dot point form and categorised by legion (therefore your able to read the fluff on only the legions your interested in).

I wouldn’t say that the loyalist in the cannon are the most loyal, it’s just that the first person perspective writing that is apparent in a lot of the codices tend to be overly biased. In my opinion, all of the founding legions were more or less evenly loyal and each legion had their own grievances. The traitors in the cannon are a result of misfortune and Horus’ manipulations. My fluff basically tweaks a few events slightly to get a different result. To quote three examples (as quoting all 8 would be time consuming) I turned the DA traitor by making the fluff of the Lion being a traitor true, I turned the Space Wolves traitor by linking the wolf gods of Fenris to Khorne and I turned the BA traitor by Guilliman tricking Sanguinius (see dot points below).


Dark Angels
• Astelan’s recollection of events in the novel “Angels of Darkness” (where Lion was purposely late in arriving on Terra) is correct.
• Lion was not banished into the warp but saved by Tzeentch at the last minute.
• Lion later reappears to his legion to execute Luther and advise his chapter that “all is well”.
• Lion, slowly but surely, leads his legion down the path of damnation and following the changer of ways. Those who did not convert to chaos were executed or turned into chaos spawn.
• Lion currently rules over his legion in the Eye of Terror as a Daemon Prince. Lion is now known as the Lion of Change.
• Cypher and his renegade faction “Fallen Angels” are known to mysteriously appear and assist imperial forces in thwarting the Dark Angel’s plans.
• The Fallen Angels believe that if they can destroy the Dark Angels, it will absolve their legion of its sins.
• The Dark Angels bear a strong hatred for the Fallen Angels.

Space Wolves
• Wolf Gods of Fenris linked to Khorne
• Prior Khornate worship became apparent during the attack on the Thousand Sons.
• Leman Russ was rewarded with daemonhood by his “true God” after he killed Magnus the Red.
• Legion is actively led by Logan Grimnar, the high king of Skulls.
• After the legion embraced their new god, they sided with Guilliman and his campaign against the imperium.
• Daemon Wolf Leman Russ and his horde were defeated by the World Eaters during the first war for Armageddon. Daemon Wolf Leman Russ was banished by the Grey Knights for 100 years and a day.
• All Rune Priests/Psykers were killed when the legion fully embraced Khornate worship.
• Ragnar Blackmane is now a mad butcher like Kharn the Betrayer in the cannon universe.

Blood Angels
• Tricked by Guilliman during Heresy as Sanguinius was unaware of Guilliman’s treachery.
• Guilliman tricked Sanguinius because he knew Sanguinius wouldn’t betray the emperor and he feared Sanguinius’ intervention would ruin his plans. • Sanguinius was tricked by Guilliman into believing that the Wold Eater’s legion had turned traitor. Rivalry with the World Eaters clouded Sanguinius’ judgement.
• The Blood Angels experienced heavy loses after getting caught on the wrong side during the heresy and Istvaan V massacre. The loyalist legions assumed the Blood Angels legion was another traitor legion that sided with Guilliman.
• Sanguinius died during the Isvaan massacre when Angron broke Sanguinius’ back over his knee.
• Distraught of over the primarch’s death and their legions grim situation as traitors, the legion’s prayers were answered by the chaos gods who offered them salvation over oblivion.
• Following the acceptance of their new masters, the legion assisted the traitor legions in the final assault on terra.
• The legion are followers of chaos undivided and reside in a daemon world in the Eye of Terror. The daemon world resembles their home planet.
• Currently ruled by Blood Lord Dante and Mephiston, Daemon Prince of Death.
• Red Thirst + exposure to the warp have created strange and rapid mutations amongst the chapter. It is common for a blood angel marine to grow large black feathered wings as well as large fangs and claws.
• Legion is infamous for their brutal winged assaults and drinking the blood of their enemies.
• Legion now resembles a pack of winged, blood thirsty vampires than the noble angelic warriors they once were.
• The entire army now wears a Death Company style armour/colour scheme.

As to the fists only being as loyal as others, not more so:

Wiki on Dorn: Dorn himself was fiercely loyal to the Emperor, and never once sought any favour from him. He exemplified the truth, and could never tell a lie, even if it would have aided his cause. Because of this, Dorn's statue stands as one of only four on Macragge, next to that of Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines.

Wiki on Primarchs: Each Primarch was both a father and older brother to each Legion, the source of the Legion's temperment and humours, a being in which each Legion saw their ultimate perfection and ways of war given personification in one perfect individual.

Dorn=uber loyal+honest
Space Marines=do what their primarchs does
Imperial Fists=Dorn's marines
Imperial Fists= uber loyal+honest.

I wish that blood angels and grey knights were still loyal, and that it was the ultramarines that went traitor instead.

I wish the Adeptus Custodes were traitors, and to make up for the overwhelming might that transfers over, the thousand sons AND Alpha Legion fought for the IoM.

I have a soft spot for the thousand sons, love em. Definately what i would like to see back on the side of the Imperium. As for a chapter that can turn to chaos... I dont like the white scars, never have.... So they can have them for no other reason than i dont like them.

Death Guard loyal and take the smurfs. Why get rid of them Wolves? Nobody can kill better then them.

im2randomghgh wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Swap Night Lords and the Raven Guard?

I really doubt anyone would realize the difference its not like youd see either of them coming

Batman vs. ninja

There IS a difference

would you see either coming for you ?

Henners91 wrote:Alpha Legion.

They're just badass.

Hell they're not even real traitors

Exactly - loyal and loving it since 30K!

After the events of LEGION well, the only thing that is clear is that... nothing's really clear.

Other than what it looks like Mr. Abnett was aiming for.

Maybe.

Of course, the other Black Library writers seemed to have misplaced that memo, hence the Mustache Twirling Idiots of "THE HUNT FOR VOLDORIUS" and "VICTORIES OF THE SPACE MARINES".