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In my opinion SW still outclass GK.

In combat, GK still kind of do poorly against SS units.
Supported by a rune priest in rhino, TWCs with all SSs will still wreck havoc on any GK unit(s). Psycannons are 24" and TWCs has a max possible move/assault range of 24".

I'm currently working on building my TWC units with Mr. Dandy wolves. 1xWolf Lord on TW with TH/SS, 4xTWC w 1xPF, 4xSS. With fire supports from 3 LF squads, wolf scouts, and rushing grey hunters in rhino/rb, you can easily overwhelm your opponent.

Reecius wrote:@wustenflux
you can make that argument for any army though, that a skilled player will win with them. If we're looking straight at army power though, I think those particular list won't be tier one. After thinking about of some more, I'd add deathwing to that list, above blood angels. That list is so good and easy to play. A bunch of fearless, scoring units that are good in assault and shooting makes for a great army. Excellent counter to missile wolves and psyflemen dreads, too.

Yeah, as far as the statement on skiller players is concerned.
Not sure about DW, as a Termie heavy list can be severely outnumbered.
GK can counter this with a unit of Purifiers or by taking Paladins that are much more resilient than normal GK Termies.

DW Termie Armies, don't make me laugh with a Gunline Army or massed firepower this isn't an issue. Terminators are tough, but not that tough, enough things in the game can bring them down, and 5+ Inv is a 1/3 chance of a save which is not great.

BT's Terminators are good because you can have 2 x AC in a squad, oh and pick your doctorine to go with them making them insane.

BA Assault with lots of FNP, that is a to combat especially with meph. GK's are a pain, with all their special rules and quite frankly facing an Army of Psykers fills me with dread.

SW are amazing, why? Grey Hunters! They are troops, with Bolters, with a Close Combat weapon, Counter attack and one can have mark of the wulfren, 2 x special weps in a 10man squad + Wolf standard.....NAILS

Oh and LF's, Fire Control, a Unit that can split fire, so a 2 x LC can fire at a vehicle whilst 3 x ML fire at a horde. SW are superb in the Close Assault (not Assault) they can "Victual you with lead and then leap on you finish you off".

Grey Hunters = Best Troops in the Game.

@Reecius I really would wait and see until you get additional data on just how the pro's use the GK list.

Secondly 6th ed is not that far away. Would hate to see certain armies get nurfed due to the new set of rules.

I would also see what are the new and subtle changes on the newest codexes that are coming up soon, then decide if you really want to spend the money on a new army.

mwnciboo wrote:DW Termie Armies, don't make me laugh with a Gunline Army or massed firepower this isn't an issue. Terminators are tough, but not that tough, enough things in the game can bring them down, and 5+ Inv is a 1/3 chance of a save which is not great.

Good job they're all packing storm shields then

Updated the first page with some results and am waiting on a few of the recent tourney reps to get back to me with others.
Not particularly scientific but I'll keep it up to date out of interest.

Welsh Nats was 28th/29th May.

mwnciboo wrote:DW Termie Armies, don't make me laugh with a Gunline Army or massed firepower this isn't an issue. Terminators are tough, but not that tough, enough things in the game can bring them down, and 5+ Inv is a 1/3 chance of a save which is not great.

Well, I don't know why you would laugh as I was not joking. I play in a LOT of tournaments, far more than most people do. I tend to go to 2-4 a month and I have been ranked in the top 10 of US players for about a year now. I play against very high caliber players and feel very confident in my opinions, although by no means do I think I am always right or that my opinions invalidate anyone elses.

However, DW armies are absolutely top tier and tournament data, and my own personal experience, supports that. Any army comprised primarily of fearless scoring units that are good in assault and shooting is obviously a powerful army. That should be fairly obvious I would think. Nearly the entire army has a 2+/3++. In our test games against top tier lists, DW have performed amazingly. Also, they are the hard counter to two top builds: missile wolves and leaf blower. Neither of these lists has sufficient AP2 to deal with DW and do not want to see them across the table. Most top tier shooty lists do not pack in much ap2 or better anymore. The meta has shifted to higher number of shots, higher ap. You see tons of strength 6-8 these days, with ap5-3. Lots of av12 and down vehicles. People build their armies to this standard, which is what opens the door to DW lists. DW do suffer against some armies such as horde Orks, Bugs, Power Blob IG, Footdar, and certain Daemon builds, but you don't see those lists very frequently in tournaments.

What makes an army good isn't necessarily its power in a vacuum, but it's power in the meta you play in. All games are local and what works for you in your area may not work in the tournament scene at large. In the GT scene, you tend to see the same armies, which is why you see the same armies winning. DW beat a lot of the top builds out there now and are good enough against the rest to win tournaments consistently. They are top tier. If anyone chooses to disagree with me, that is fine, but there really is no reason to take a mocking tone or act as if my opinions are laughable as I would not take that stance with anyone else.

@Adam Long Walker
I agree. Time will tell, as I said earlier, but my guess now, is that GK will edge out wolves as they have so many incredibly powerful tools at their disposal. I could be wrong, but in the tournaments and test games we have played so far, they are just so powerful. They really have no weaknesses in a well built list.

@Sons of Vulkan
I have to disagree with you there. In our test games, Wolfstar lists have been getting smashed by GKs, like nearly tabeled. White925, a veteran TWC player and previously the top ranked player in the USA (currently 5) has won many tournaments with his Wolfstar list. In test games against GK, he got smashed. High Initiative force weapons proved to be the death of the mighty Wolfstar. Every combat will be different, but on average we found that Grey Knights will kill the TWC in combat. Also, GH squads get beat up by GKs unless they really outnumber them. Again, high Initiative force weapons murder the GHs before they even swing.

Our test games with veteran players using tuned lists have shown the advantage goes to GKs. It isn't a staggering advantage, but it is there.

Time will tell.

The Pittsburgh RTT that was last weekend saw the following top 2, not sure who was 3,4 and 5, will need to look at Facebook later, i think it got posted on the stores page.

1. DE
2. Tau

But one of the things that was cool, was every army was represented, except for some of the space marine codexs.

Had 2 DE, 2 Tyranids, 2 Tau, 2 Orks, 2 Space Wolves, 1 Grey Knight, 2 Eldar, 1 Necron, 2 Chaos, 2 Imperial Guard, might of had more than 2 on a couple of armies, I know we had 20 players.

Well, its good to see DE at the top.
But DE is often very situational, this army is 1st turn dependent especially against shooty enemies and
in KP games its often an uphill battle.

The strange thing was that i played the other DE army in the second round, which means the DE had lots of success during this tournament.

In truth, the only armies i think i could have had trouble with were BA assault marine spam, Mech IG, or Grey Knights.
This tournament used Victory Points as a staple in the missions, which also added to my success.

However, my list was not raider spam necessarily, as it only featured 4 raiders. It was more of a wyche cult/ blasterborn hybrid.

@ Reecius.. You'll have to watch the Bugeater GT. I know of 2 DW armies going, Hulksmash and one of my buddies is running a Custodes "counts as DW". I think there are 2 other dark angel players, so maybe more DW too. It will be interesting on how it all shakes out.

I'm running a Pedro list with honor guard.

Here is the breakdown of armies registered, quoted from another sight;

Quote;
"mizery wrote: "
Hey Timmay are you allowed to tell us the army spread? Lists are locked at this point so there's no harm in knowing.


I just saw this. No problem sharing:

7 Space Wolves
6 IG
5 Blood Angels
4 Dark Angels
4 CSM
3 Orks
3 Tyranids
2 Grey Knights
2 Space Marines
2 Eldar
1 Dark Eldar
1 Tau
1 Daemons
1 Black Templars
1 Necrons


So only 2 grey knights. The usual SW, BA, and IG. I'm guessing possible GK players are playing DW. So the test will be if DW can perform vs the other big 3 or will the 2 GK rule the day.

I try to keep my ear to the ground of what is happening in the tournament scene as it is just plain interesting, IMO. I will certainly be interested to see how this event shakes down!

Night's Blood wrote:The strange thing was that i played the other DE army in the second round, which means the DE had lots of success during this tournament.

In truth, the only armies i think i could have had trouble with were BA assault marine spam, Mech IG, or Grey Knights.
This tournament used Victory Points as a staple in the missions, which also added to my success.

However, my list was not raider spam necessarily, as it only featured 4 raiders. It was more of a wyche cult/ blasterborn hybrid.

I can imagine that DE can be successful when it comes to victory points since DE armies are usually based on many cheap but effective units.

wuestenfux wrote:

Night's Blood wrote:The strange thing was that i played the other DE army in the second round, which means the DE had lots of success during this tournament.

In truth, the only armies i think i could have had trouble with were BA assault marine spam, Mech IG, or Grey Knights.
This tournament used Victory Points as a staple in the missions, which also added to my success.

However, my list was not raider spam necessarily, as it only featured 4 raiders. It was more of a wyche cult/ blasterborn hybrid.

I can imagine that DE can be successful when it comes to victory points since DE armies are usually based on many cheap but effective units.

Exactly my reasoning. If the 6th edition rumor is true, while i'm taking it with a large amount of salt, and kill points are being phased out, it bodes quite well for DE in 6th.

Yeah, you did real well with DE but I did make a mistake with the terrain. It's difficult to set up all the boards on my own since people didnt leave the store the night before to give me time heh. Either way, DE vs thunderwolves is a bad match up for SW.

Terrain really wouldn't have been a mitigating factor with thunderwolves as the bulk of the wounds were from splinter fire. Also, DE are so mobile i could have simply moved around any terrain. But that is the inherent downside with Twolves, any list with solid anti infantry has a good chance of taking them down before they hit your lines.

Really wish the army comp would of been posted for all to see. Thank you inquisitor for showing us this thread.

I think we will continue to see the dominance of MSU builds.

The Purifier/Psyback spam list and the DE venom list.

The reason why is that a lot of tournaments are moving into the 3 mission objective missions.

Kill Points should be a balancing factor with these armies are going to be neutralized because there are going to be 2 other mission objective that you can get, and that those lists excel at.

@Adam Long Walker
I agree. Time will tell, as I said earlier, but my guess now, is that GK will edge out wolves as they have so many incredibly powerful tools at their disposal. I could be wrong, but in the tournaments and test games we have played so far, they are just so powerful. They really have no weaknesses in a well built list.

@ Reecius

I do know where you are coming from but from where I see the games going and what has been being played, they are powerful but they can be beaten. Next, regardless of the army in question I face, I enforce the 25% rule on terrain. People are not enforcing this aspect and as I have seen so many battle reports here being posted on Dakka there is a lot less than 25% of terrain on the table top. Of course you are going to see the GK excel! With limited terrain, they are going to shoot the hell out of you before they assault what is left out of your army.

I won't state my tactics here, but I do have some very powerful builds with my other armies. I'm not particularly concerned with the GK list at the moment. I just think that to build a GK army knowing that 6th ED is perhaps 15 or so months away, and the rule system is going to be a game changer, well, to me is a waste of money.

Now when the Nuns with Guns come out I would love to buy a few models so I can paint and create.

The game is largely local and if in your area they aren't a threat then hey, it is what it is. Here,they are. Not unbeatable by any means, but easily top tier and as I said earlier, I believe the best. But, we'll see. Not much you can really prove on a forum which is why I dont get too into these debates. They're largely a waste of time. I like hearing what other tournament players have to say, but as you have seen, you're own experience is your best teacher.

We both agree that GK's are a top tier army and in the hands of a competitive player they are going to do great.

Yup, I definitely agree with that.

I feel this somewhat validates my theory of metabalancing. Individually a codex may seem horribly overpowered, etc. but when you look at it in relation to the rest of the books out there, it s actually decently well balanced. However, you then get into the issue of not every metagroup having every codex present, as well as the issue of the long release cycle meaning that not ever codex will be fully up to date, and in fact will be outdated by the inevitable edition change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I feel this somewhat validates my theory of metabalancing. Individually a codex may seem horribly overpowered, etc. but when you look at it in relation to the rest of the books out there, it s actually decently well balanced. However, you then get into the issue of not every metagroup having every codex present, as well as the issue of the long release cycle meaning that not ever codex will be fully up to date, and in fact will be outdated by the inevitable edition change.

Blackmoor wrote:I think we will continue to see the dominance of MSU builds.

The Purifier/Psyback spam list and the DE venom list.

The reason why is that a lot of tournaments are moving into the 3 mission objective missions.

Kill Points should be a balancing factor with these armies are going to be neutralized because there are going to be 2 other mission objective that you can get, and that those lists excel at.

In fact, kill points should stay in the new edition since it balances out those objective based missions and make MSU not too overpowered.

SonsofVulkan wrote:In my opinion SW still outclass GK.

In combat, GK still kind of do poorly against SS units.
Supported by a rune priest in rhino, TWCs with all SSs will still wreck havoc on any GK unit(s). Psycannons are 24" and TWCs has a max possible move/assault range of 24".

I'm currently working on building my TWC units with Mr. Dandy wolves. 1xWolf Lord on TW with TH/SS, 4xTWC w 1xPF, 4xSS. With fire supports from 3 LF squads, wolf scouts, and rushing grey hunters in rhino/rb, you can easily overwhelm your opponent.

As a SW player, TWC are fodder in close combat to GK.

One halberd kills your day with TWC if you are not within the protective range of a rune priest. I have seen multiple TWC players make the mistake of thinking they can smoke GK and end up not understanding the mass ID they suffer because one halberd unsaved wound smokes a whole pack.

Facing GK with TWC takes a different tactic. They are no longer the massed infantry killer (unless facing a bunch of henchmen) but instead will be hunters for DK, rifleman dread, and GK infantry units that were severely hurt by masssed GH and Long Fang fire.

Against GK, TWC are not the fire and forget deathstar units they are against most armies.

Our test games have shown the same results, Brother Ramses. The TWC on average loses to a decent sized GK squad with halbreds (and anyone who doesn't have a hammer should have a halbred in a good list).

wrong thread

Reecius wrote:Our test games have shown the same results, Brother Ramses. The TWC on average loses to a decent sized GK squad with halbreds (and anyone who doesn't have a hammer should have a halbred in a good list).

That's the same with a Nob (Biker) squad. I'd be careful to charge a large GK squad.

Yeah, I6 force weapons are no joke.