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Reecius wrote:I have played against some hard GK lists and they have literally nearly no weaknesses. They are a tad bit too good, IMO. I think the game designers got a little heavy handed with shoring up the GK shortcomings.

Cleansing flame is way, way overkill. Two units of purifiers charging into, or being charged by low save units will nearly wipe them out before anyone swings.

Aegis, fortitude for 5 points. That is slowed. Extra armor costs 15!

Psy ammunition for 5 points? So, so, so stupid. A psyfilmen dread is one of the permier shooting units in the game and it costs less than it should be about 20-25 points.

Sanctuary is just stupid. Armies without grenades (Tyranids, some Daemon units) just get raped. Combine this with cleansing flame and army wide force weapons and a lot of units just become totally wasted points, like any Tyranid Monstrous Creature geared towards assault.

Once list builders find the sweet spot between taking henchmen and GK units, we will see lists that are incredibly hard to beat as they will have almost no weaknesses.

I think the book would have been much better with a few weaknesses built into it.

Note that three of the things you just posted are psychic powers-- the chief weakness that I've found with the Grey Knights is their vulnerability to psychic defenses. Many GK armies rely on Fortitude to allow them to compensate for a smaller number of shooting units than their opponents; take that away or make it unreliable, and they're left operating at a distinct disadvantage. Since psychic defense can often be splashed into a list fairly easily, at least for other Marine forces, this is quite the weakness. If you're really worried, or just want to make 6-Psyfleman lists cry, Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors with infinite-range hoods should really put a damper on the Grey Knights. That said, they'll probably be taken out of the game shortly, so Imperial Guard players would probably be better-served by learning new target priority instead of splashing Allies into their lists.

Kirasu wrote:The problem with Gks is that people haven't been bringing the A-game lists, I agree. The best lists should just take as many psycannons as they can as its basically 4th edition assault cannon spam but you can get 2x as many.

Except that they don't rend on to-hit like 4th edition assault cannons did, and most of the psycannons in the GK armies I've been seeing only get to fire 2 shots per turn rather than 4 under normal circumstances. Psycannons in general aren't living up to the hype, at least in the games I've played against Grey Knights-- after one particularly underwhelming round of shooting, one opponent remarked that he wished he could have meltas or even plasguns instead of psycannons, which I think is a fairly telling criticism.

Reecius is right about Grey Knights being very good.

The big game changer is Fortitude is really undercosted when extra armor costs 10 more points and doesn't allow shooting. Chaos Possessiion costs 15 more points and gives you a bs nerf but doesn't require a psychic check. Fortitude allows Grey Knight vehicles to shoot when otherwise they would not. This changes the whole stun/shake things and forget about them shooting back. Yes there is chaos possesion it costs more and comes with a bs nerf drawback.

When fortitude is coupled with venerable you have a really tough to shut down combination.

This makes psyker defense required and not all armies have psyker defense.

@ Reece point taken re: analysis. Especially when it was a single tournament in isolation.
Just thought it was interesting, since I wouldnt have rated Orks very highly on the tourney scene. But as you said, a strong player can do wonders.
I'll keep on eye on future tourneys with results and try and keep them updated here for a bit more of a trend analysis.
Im quite interested to see how the summer turns out and whats strong/whats not.

yeh mech Hench is savage, chimera and 4 psychic men for a st6 ap 3 large blast for 95 points or cheap warriors with flamers , 3 servs with plaz cannon and a conversion beamer inquisitor in chimera all firing for roughly the same points as a standard russ, sick ( so i built it)

I've yet to see a mechanized henchman army that impresses me more than a real IG army does, unless of course the 20-Razorback army is legal...

I agree that GK is top tier.
However, they seem to struggle vs. AV 14 vehicles, since meltas do not belong to the weapons of GK's.
Are there some ways to compensate this?

wuestenfux wrote:I agree that GK is top tier.
However, they seem to struggle vs. AV 14 vehicles, since meltas do not belong to the weapons of GK's.
Are there some ways to compensate this?

Henchmen with meltaguns or an 8 man strong psyker squad. Vindicare turbopen. Hammerhanded (S10) daemonhammer. Punching it with a dreadknight. Somehow actually hitting it with a bonbardment or I suppose the conversion beamer, if you actually took one.

Those are about the only ones I can think of.

Yeah but at least in my area the meta has shifted so far from AV14 spam that it really isn't an issue. You occasionally see a Raider or russ but I honestly can only remember one time in the last year where I saw more than 2 in an army and that was a DA army that had a Deathwing army with three of them.

Grey Knights are really good. They do have some weaknesses, but not a lot. And they are a very forgiving army. Make a mistake and you can still get away with it. Do that with some of the other armies and you're probably going to lose. They're good in the tournament scene (if built properly listwise) because they excel at doing something few other armies can do as well....they can take on and beat the current competitive meta, which is mech. As a matter of fact, they do it so well that they're actually very good against other MSU-mech lists.

Right now, you don't really see GK's doing that well. It's still early though. In a few more months, you're going to see them in the upper echelons of tournament armies, right up there with IG, Space Wolves and Orks. Honestly, I can even see them surpassing those armies.

I could be wrong, or knee-jerking, it's just that going through the dex and the possible builds it is astonishing what you can pull out of it.

They really put the screws to bugs, just like last edition.

I am almost considering building a GK army to be my main tournament list as I feel that it is such an all around powerful book.

I agree though that you shoot purifiers to death, but some armies don't really have that option (certain Ork, Daemon, and Bug builds).

@MVBrandt
Yeah, I'd love to get a game in, that would be good fun.

Point level often plays a role when it comes to competitivity.
To this end, I was surprised to see a nice GK list at the 1500 pt level:
Inquisitor Xenos, 5 Termies, 10 Termies, 2x 5 GK's w/ Razorback, 3 Psyfleman Dreads. Squads had maxed out psycannons.

Book is pretty damn good, I really hope Necrons are insane against MEQ and psykers to help reign in the SW and GK. With modern terrain coming out at major events IG could use a little breathing room while the other books catch up.

In my opinion, the grey knight book is balanced just fine. They have awesome stuff, but every army should have awesome stuff! The best games are those that are balanced not through everyone being mediocre, but by everyone being awesome! I've had no problem taking on grey knight armies with both my Dark Eldar and Salamanders. The thing about the grey knights is, if you play their type of game, you WILL lose. Grey knights can seem too good because their specialist units really can't be beat at what they do. The age old strategy of shoot the sword guys, stab the shooty guys isn't a suggestion, it is a necessity against this codex.

A shootout at 18 inches? Grey knights win. Charging a unit including 3 techmarines with crazy grenades? Grey knights win. Pouring long range fire into 24 inch range guys who can't reach you due to nightshields....Dark Eldar win .

I think Deamons will become even more rare now that Grey's and DE are becoming more common. Tyranids also seem to be in real decline.

I think GKs are in the same boat as Blood Angels. Lots of powerful toys, but the army is priced in such a manner that if you try and cover all the bases, you will be vastly outnumbered. After playing several builds, the things that stand out to me are:

Cleansing Flame- Counters the main weakness of the army (hordes) and Paladins are so much better of a deal than Strike Squads, it begs the question of why ever take them?

Coteaz- So many possibilities are openned up by this character and he has other abilities that make him worth his cost without the henchment thing.

Teleporting Dreadnights- Say what you want about the Rifleman Dreads, having three of these guys on top of you on turn two is a problem for many armies out there and they counter a lot of the other weakneses of the rest of the army. They may end up even more broken depending on how Grand Strategy interacts with the shunt (post FAQ).

Grenades- Psychotroke and Rad Grenades win games. You can get them on very inexpensive characters, some of whom do not even take up HQ slots (hi2u Tech Marine IC) and require little in the way of strategy to be effective.

The above are all things that can be easily incorperated into lists. The rest of the book is kind of pricey and you make sacrifices to include it (unlike, say Mech Vet spam or Grey Hunter spam), so a lot of lists I have seen other people running have had the same issues as Blood Angel ones; too many toys and not enough bread and butter troops.

I think that if you build a list around pysfilemen, a few squads of purifiers, a few strike squads solely for the horribly designed warp quake, and some henchmen, you have an incredibly good army that is effective against everything. It shoots, it assaults, it beats up hordes and MSU mech. Sure, you can counter build an army to beat it, but then that army must also be able to face the other big tournament lists.

I do have to say though, that a good Daemon list does fine against anything but warp quake spam GK (and you usually only see one or two warp quake units if any in most builds). My teammate, Italiaplaya, plays a Fatecrusher Daemon list almost exclusively and he has nearly tabled GKs every time he has played them.

Plus, if you take a unit of flesh hounds, you can effectively remove a unit or two of gray knights from play. If Fateweaver is in range, only 1 in 36 wounds will get through the collar of khorne.

A good daemon list I think actually suffers less against what we will be seeing most commonly in tournaments from the GK book than say Orks or Bugs.

Blackmoor wrote:I fear Eldar are dead and gone because they have trouble beating the latest codexes.

I think Mechdar with Eldrad (or any Farseer with Runes of Warding) still fares very well.
I'd say combining RoW (ouch for Grey Knights) with regular Dooming duties (ouch for everyone)
+ newly rediscovered (maybe just for me) Mind War picking off pesky key enemy personnel (priests, chaplains, Nobz, MCs) will allow Eldar to stay in the fight for the most part.

Also maybe opponents lack of familiarity with that Eldar can do (because we are becoming rapidly extinct) in tourney play?

Fire Dragons vs Armor/MCs
Banshees vs Power Armor, Terminator
Avengers for scoring and high number of shots vs anything that needs to get a bunch of shurikens to the face..
and a bunch of uber mobile Wave Serpents rocking MLs or Lances.


Anyway, maybe I'm not one to speak because the only tourney I've been in and I chickened out of brining my Eldar and went with Orks!

A hardcore mechdar list is definitely still a heavy weight, it is just expensive, and probably won't survive the edition change so you don't see it often.

But if you take maxed war walkers with scatter lasers, and spam WSs with psyker defense and an autarch, you have a list that can handle damn near anything, especially in tis day of light mech. And like you said, RoW is the BEST anti psyker gear in the game, and is murder on GKs.

I think Eldar are still viable, it's just that building that army wouldn't be all that fun.

Given the huge disparity in what it costs to field a mech IG army vice a marine army, I fully expect to see the usual piles upon piles of Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

Grey Knights... Low-ish model count, metallic (read: Easy) paint scheme, relatively simple tactics.... Yeah, we're going to see a lot of that as well. Although Grey Knights list building seems to still be up in the air.

I expect to see a continued decline in CSM and Eldar players.

DE are pretty nasty, but they have a hell of a learning curve, and are extremely unforgiving to tactical mistakes. I expect to see a few here and there, and I expect them to do well.

Then, of course, there's always the one random Daemons player at every tournament, who if he has a good day, and rolls well for Daemonic Assault + Deepstrike scatters, will faceroll. If he rolls poorly... he gets facerolled.

Ork players, in my experience, are fiercely loyal to their boys in green, and I expect that everyone you saw playing Orks last year, will be back, with Da Boyz again.

Mix in a few random 'nilla marines, Templars, Dark Angels and maybe some 'nids.. and you've got yourself a tourney.

Oh and.. Tau, Sisters and Necrons not piloted by Dash will more than likely remain on the shelf, unless fielded by a "just for fun" player, in either case, they're fairly irrelevant.

I agree with your analysis.

The thing with sisters is that a well built army will kick that crap out of most other armies out there right now. It is just a very expensive army, and KPs kick it square in the vajay.

And yeah, Tau and Crons, unless piloted by a very good player, are a non issue at present. I hope that changes soon as they are two very cool armies.

Why can't Chaos catch a break.....:(

Chaos is still good, it's just bland. There are like 2 viable builds and they are almost identical.

Reecius wrote:Chaos is still good, it's just bland. There are like 2 viable builds and they are almost identical.

There at least three different viable builds:
1. Plague Marines, Obliterators, winged DPs, Termicide.
2. MC heavy: winged DPs, GD, Dreads, Defilers, Daemons.
3. Rhino heavy: Chosen, CSM, and Havocs in Rhinos with maxed-out special weapons, lash Sorcerers.

wuestenfux wrote:

Reecius wrote:Chaos is still good, it's just bland. There are like 2 viable builds and they are almost identical.

There at least three different viable builds:
1. Plague Marines, Obliterators, winged DPs, Termicide.
2. MC heavy: winged DPs, GD, Dreads, Defilers, Daemons.
3. Rhino heavy: Chosen, CSM, and Havocs in Rhinos with maxed-out special weapons, lash Sorcerers.

+1

Many people have said from the start that the CSM codex is a one trick pony, and that's just not true. Is it ready for a rewrite? Probably, but it can still hold it's own. If the number of CSM players was equal to the number of BA/SW/GK players out there, then you'd probably see CSMs placing more regularly. The same goes for some of the other overlooked codexes. Chaos demons are the same way IMO. There are a couple nasty builds available, but very few good demons players showing up at tourneys to represent the codex, so it doesn't place as regularly.

Shinkaze wrote:
So who won the Welsh champs?

Stu Robertson won with DE. I got 2nd with mech Guard, 3rd was a pretty balanced and ordinary Marine army.

Reecius wrote:Chaos is still good, it's just bland. There are like 2 viable builds and they are almost identical.

But they are sooooooooooo boring.

I am really suprised that ork players did really well Because with every new codex da boyz getting weaker.

Every new army is mostly close combat oriented like BA beats you with good save and fnp,DE torture you with wyches , Grey knights burn your boys even before combat start...

In fact, it appears that Orks fall behind these days. Every new 'dex has some means to counter a Ork horde.
In particular, Nob Bikers have a hard time in cc vs GK if they gonna active their force weapons.

I agree with Avariel that missions, massacre vs win loss and terrain are all factors in what wins but the biggest factor is the player pushing the models. How experienced is the player with the army their using is very important to how well they do.

Just from my own experience I do a lot better now with my IG making some good placings at GTs and winning RTTs then I did in summer of 2009 when I first started playing at local RTTs with unpainted models and losing fairly often.

Reecius might be overreacting a bit but jy2 has it right. Grey Knights is a top contender very well rounded and good army. yermom has won two RTTs that I know of with a competitive MSU grey knights. I lost both my games vs yermom's grey knights playing mech IG and I lost vs Avariel's mech msu grey knights as well. Grey Knights is a huge butt kicking for Mech IG because they can stun/shake your vehicles to stop you from shooting and they ignore your stun/shakes with fortitude coupled with psyrifle dreads, psybolt razors and psycannons they actually outshoot IG.

When the top players like yermom start going to GTs with grey knights you will start seeing them winning.

Orks are competitive they still have some solid options with good combat either hordes or elites and fire support from lootas. They do have some issues with land raidersrelying on power klaws and deffrollas. Big thing about Orks is many Ork players are long time Ork players and have lots of experience so they know their army inside and out and have an advantage over newer players.

Chaos is still competitive just its a wee bit boring. As a former Chaos player, I hate the 4th ed Chaos dex. Really enjoyed 3rd ed Chaos. 4th they really limited the options and although there are competitive builds I really don't like them.

Grey Knight MSU IMHO is the best MSU army possible. Spacewolves are very close, but in the MSU matchup fortitude is huge.

As above, Yermom has the gold standard for MSU GK. Sure, people could make a few tweaks for personal taste, but the core of 3 purifiers, 4 strikes, 2 meltahench, 3 psyrifle, coteaz and max vees is solid. Strikes give a huge anti-deepstrike bubble, 7 units can get s10 hammers, 40 pcannon shots, and 4 psybacks are great versus eldar. Purifers take the place of templates for wrecking hordes, and unless your playing a kill point game dealing with that much mech is a hassle.