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wuestenfux wrote:

Reecius wrote:Chaos is still good, it's just bland. There are like 2 viable builds and they are almost identical.

There at least three different viable builds:
1. Plague Marines, Obliterators, winged DPs, Termicide.
2. MC heavy: winged DPs, GD, Dreads, Defilers, Daemons.
3. Rhino heavy: Chosen, CSM, and Havocs in Rhinos with maxed-out special weapons, lash Sorcerers.

Those last two, while good, aren't top tier builds, IMO. I have yet to see either of those lists win an event, but I could have just missed it. The ONLY chaos builds I see win events are PM, Lash, Oblit lists.

Orks aren't losing steam, either. If anything, they do better in MSU land. The best Ork build that consistently places in tournaments that I see are battlewagon based. Deff rollas, lootas, nobs, KFF, and boyz do just fine in the current meta.

Nob bikers fell out of fashion a while ago. Manticores and missile wolves made them old news. A Nob Biker list is still good, for sure, but hardly what it was when it first came out. The best use I see for them now is a smaller unit of 6 or so, that is still very effective, although I still think you are better off putting the Nobs in a deff rolla delivery system.

I agree with Kirika, it is simply a matter of time before we see GK lists winning tournaments. They are just so packed to the brim with power. They play the MSU game better than any other book, IMO, and MSU armies are consistently top performers in the tournament scene. They can take a counter for any other top list as far as I can see right now. I know my missile wolves have some weaknesses that I can't really get around without sacrificing a lot, but GKs can make a balls out shooting list that is also equipped to deal with hordes, MCs, elite assault armies and can take objectives with fearless, mobile units. They just cover every base so well.

Time will tell though. I will be interested to see how things shake down 6 months from now.

@Reecius

I see a few glaring gaps in the GK line-up honestly. If you can kill of 4-5 vehicles a turn now then you can handle 99% of GK lists that are being bandied about. Though I hear Goatboy's created a beast.

Reecius wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Reecius wrote:Chaos is still good, it's just bland. There are like 2 viable builds and they are almost identical.

There at least three different viable builds:
1. Plague Marines, Obliterators, winged DPs, Termicide.
2. MC heavy: winged DPs, GD, Dreads, Defilers, Daemons.
3. Rhino heavy: Chosen, CSM, and Havocs in Rhinos with maxed-out special weapons, lash Sorcerers.

Those last two, while good, aren't top tier builds, IMO. I have yet to see either of those lists win an event, but I could have just missed it. The ONLY chaos builds I see win events are PM, Lash, Oblit lists.

Couldn't agree more. When Nob Bikers were rolling around in style still in late 4th/early 5th, and before the amped up IG and Space Wolves came on the scene, the Chaos Monster Mash was a much better contender. Now, however, they just can't compete with the shooting that a Mechanized IG or MSU Marine list can dish out.

Now...give me reliable demon weapons and dreadnoughts, and all bets are off.

As Reece has been saying grey knights are just silly in power. They have a lot of shiny new toys though, and as long as people keep playing with those you wont see grey knights taking the top tables. I'm talking about paladin death stars in storm ravens, scouting dreadknights, termie spam etc... When players get by all the new toys and tart playing with a solid core to their army then grey knights will win tournaments.

My list is pretty solid with coteaz, 3 units of purifiers, 4 units of strikes, 2 henchmen, and 3 dreads. every squad can kill everything there is in the game, and every squad has the same purpose. It's very basic, but truely devestating. I've taken 1 and only 1 loss since I started playing that list, and I've been playing it about 4 times a week on average since the begining of May.

A good player with a good grey knight list is just frightening.

I'm guessing that's at 2k? How do you feel about them at 1500 or 1750?

Yeah that's for 2k. I'm trying to cut my list back to 1750 for the nova invitational and it really doesn lose much. I lose mastercrafted on all my hammers, and dozreblades from all my tanks, as well as 1 full strike squad. Well that puts me at 1764, so I'm figuring out the best way to cut the last 16 but you get the idea.

1500 is a point value I haven't experimented with yet, but I magine I'd have to rework y list from the bottom up. Although, the end result would probably be a simillar but cut down version.

After playing Grey Knights on Vassal and with proxies I believe they are right up there with Space Wolves and Blood Angels as a top army.

Where Grey Knights edges out wolves is fortitude, going second and 24 inch range basic guns instead of 12. Fortitude is the big game changer. Wolves does not reserve very well with Long Fangs. Better range then other marines armies with psycannons and storm bolters is pretty big. However Wolves have wolf scouts which are amazing in objective and table corner missions and for getting at fire support. Wolves also has better melta access with Grey Knights having to pick up henchmen or expensive vehicles for melta access. Thunderwolves probably are better then dread knights because they don't compete with long ranged fire support.

In my opinion the top armies in the post Grey Knights world are: Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Orks, Space Marines, Dark Eldar. Only time will tell.

@Wuestenfux
Land Raiders seems like the issue I been having with my Grey Knight lists. Vindicare and multi meltas on venerable dreadnoughts along with storm raven seems like your best options. Suicide melta henchmen your losing troops to kill the land raider and actually need to get with in 6.

@Reecius
So your starting Grey Knights too? Have to agree with you that they are silly good. Still working on a Wolf list that can beat them. Allied Witch Hunter Inquisitor to combat fortitude is going away in August so looking at other options. I am too attached to my Wolf scouts to go for a full on firepower list like yours. I like armies that can compete in all phases hence I really like Space Wolves and Grey Knights really is growing on me. It is kinda hard for me fitting in Bjorn.

As much as I love Eldar, Eldar hasn't been competitive for awhile in 5th. I tried to make it work but they just aren't as good as newer codexes. Everything is so expensive points wise. Eldar troops are pretty terrible. They just can't put out enough shots to win the mech wars. Boosting onto objectives works if you can kill the tank on the objective and if its not a massacre/major/minor/draw/loss style tournament. Maybe its time to post the 2011 update to the Space Elves Fandex my friends and I made.

@DevianID
My latest list also is a Coteaz list but it doesn't actually have any Grey Knights in it opting for venerables with multimelta and psybolt auto cannon, vindicare and henchmen for cheap troops so I can fit in 2 storm ravens. Grey Knight Strike Squads are really underwhelming except in match ups where you actually want warp quake. 2 Strike Squads maximum. 3 henchmen sitting in a Psybolt razor claims your home objective just fine. If the razor is destroyed you can hide 3 behind the wreck. Is just explodes you have to worry about.

Avariel wrote:After playing Grey Knights on Vassal and with proxies I believe they are right up there with Space Wolves and Blood Angels as a top army.

Where Grey Knights edges out wolves is fortitude, going second and 24 inch range basic guns instead of 12. Fortitude is the big game changer. Wolves does not reserve very well with Long Fangs. Better range then other marines armies with psycannons and storm bolters is pretty big. However Wolves have wolf scouts which are amazing in objective and table corner missions and for getting at fire support. Wolves also has better melta access with Grey Knights having to pick up henchmen or expensive vehicles for melta access. Thunderwolves probably are better then dread knights because they don't compete with long ranged fire support.

In my opinion the top armies in the post Grey Knights world are: Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Orks, Space Marines, Dark Eldar. Only time will tell.

@Wuestenfux
Land Raiders seems like the issue I been having with my Grey Knight lists. Vindicare and multi meltas on venerable dreadnoughts along with storm raven seems like your best options. Suicide melta henchmen your losing troops to kill the land raider and actually need to get with in 6.

@Reecius
So your starting Grey Knights too? Have to agree with you that they are silly good. Still working on a Wolf list that can beat them. Allied Witch Hunter Inquisitor to combat fortitude is going away in August so looking at other options. I am too attached to my Wolf scouts to go for a full on firepower list like yours. I like armies that can compete in all phases hence I really like Space Wolves and Grey Knights really is growing on me. It is kinda hard for me fitting in Bjorn.

As much as I love Eldar, Eldar hasn't been competitive for awhile in 5th. I tried to make it work but they just aren't as good as newer codexes. Everything is so expensive points wise. Eldar troops are pretty terrible. They just can't put out enough shots to win the mech wars. Boosting onto objectives works if you can kill the tank on the objective and if its not a massacre/major/minor/draw/loss style tournament. Maybe its time to post the 2011 update to the Space Elves Fandex my friends and I made.

@DevianID
My latest list also is a Coteaz list but it doesn't actually have any Grey Knights in it opting for venerables with multimelta and psybolt auto cannon, vindicare and henchmen for cheap troops so I can fit in 2 storm ravens. Grey Knight Strike Squads are really underwhelming except in match ups where you actually want warp quake. 2 Strike Squads maximum. 3 henchmen sitting in a Psybolt razor claims your home objective just fine. If the razor is destroyed you can hide 3 behind the wreck. Is just explodes you have to worry about.

So the top five armies are Marine, Marine, Marine, Guard and Emo Elves (not in any partivcular order). Thats interesting, and by interesting I mean sad.

@Avariel
I don't know if I will for sure start them as I already have marines and spikey marines, but it is tempting. They are just so good.

@Frazzled
I'd say the pecking order now is:

1.)GK/SW (I think the GK will edge them out over time, but it is still up in the air right now)
2.) IG (still 100% capable of winning against the big dogs)
3.) BA
4.) Orks
5.) DE/Daemons (a good Daemon army crushes people, it is just their unreliability that keeps them from a higher ranking. And yes, they can beat GKs.)

That isn't a terrible mix at all from a pure variety point of view, the kicker is that the MEQs have such a greater showing.

whitedragon wrote:

Reecius wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Reecius wrote:Chaos is still good, it's just bland. There are like 2 viable builds and they are almost identical.

There at least three different viable builds:
1. Plague Marines, Obliterators, winged DPs, Termicide.
2. MC heavy: winged DPs, GD, Dreads, Defilers, Daemons.
3. Rhino heavy: Chosen, CSM, and Havocs in Rhinos with maxed-out special weapons, lash Sorcerers.

Those last two, while good, aren't top tier builds, IMO. I have yet to see either of those lists win an event, but I could have just missed it. The ONLY chaos builds I see win events are PM, Lash, Oblit lists.

Couldn't agree more. When Nob Bikers were rolling around in style still in late 4th/early 5th, and before the amped up IG and Space Wolves came on the scene, the Chaos Monster Mash was a much better contender. Now, however, they just can't compete with the shooting that a Mechanized IG or MSU Marine list can dish out.

Now...give me reliable demon weapons and dreadnoughts, and all bets are off.

It is clear that CSM fall further back with the arrival of each new codex making their viable builds worse and worse.
Nevertheless, a skilled player can still do well with the MC list, same for the Rhino-heavy list.

Avariel, how have those storm ravens been working out for you... They seem like such a waste to me. Sure, your delivering melta venerables, but in your config the meltavens and storm ravens are kinda just bait for players to overthink and shoot at when they could be killing the weaker psyrifles.

Have you had issues with people just assaulting your dreads with throwaway units? Do you have any DCA in the stormravens for counterattack?

wuestenfux wrote:
Nevertheless, a skilled player can still do well with the MC list, same for the Rhino-heavy list.

Provided you don't run into a Space Wolf Missile Spam or IG Gunline, I agree with you. Otherwise, you just can close the distance before getting blown away.

@wustenflux
you can make that argument for any army though, that a skilled player will win with them. If we're looking straight at army power though, I think those particular list won't be tier one. After thinking about of some more, I'd add deathwing to that list, above blood angels. That list is so good and easy to play. A bunch of fearless, scoring units that are good in assault and shooting makes for a great army. Excellent counter to missile wolves and psyflemen dreads, too.

wuestenfux wrote:In fact, it appears that Orks fall behind these days. Every new 'dex has some means to counter a Ork horde.
In particular, Nob Bikers have a hard time in cc vs GK if they gonna active their force weapons.

I disagree with this. GK's don't have that many attacks and your probably not gunna get the assault on bikers. Thats only 10 attacks in a full squad witch 5 will hit, Then if not using hammer hand (so they can activate force weapons) they wound on 5++ so 1 or two wound wich most nobs will still have a 5++ save. Your gunna get crushed with returned PK's and still loose combat as he only needs to kill 2 Meq's to tie. GK's don't do great aginst CC monsters like that.

The real problem is stupid cleansing flame. If you get charged by one or more units with the ability, you lose half to 75% of the Mob before anyone swings. So stupid.

Just be sure to shoot those guys!

Or attack them with Nobs. How effective is a 4+ to wound (7 to 11 models) then a 4+ save followed by a 4+ inv. to do 1 wound on a 2 wound model.

At least cleansing flame is work for someone, I've yet to have the damn thing go off.

And let me tell you, charging a unit of 30 boys with 5 purifiers and having cleansing flame fail is a gigantic "uh oh" moment.

Grimgob wrote:Or attack them with Nobs. How effective is a 4+ to wound (7 to 11 models) then a 4+ save followed by a 4+ inv. to do 1 wound on a 2 wound model.

I hope you mean FNP and not that you're using armour and then invulnerable saves!

If the GK's are packing Psyfleman Dreads, they hurt Nob Bikers and are no fun against Battlewagons either.

Biker Nobs are going to be better against GK's for sure in CC, but you have to weather the storm against the Psyfleman dreads first.

Infantry Nobs are going to be better protected from the Psyflemen in their battlewagons, but the GK's don't have to use hammerhand against T4, so will have their force weapons up most likely.

@Corrode, I do mean FnP thanks for the correction
@Whitedragon, Psyflemen dreads are the answer there (darn 4 TL str8 shots) but with assaulting GK's even aginst foot nobs your only forcing them to take like 1 more save on average.

Grimgob wrote:@Corrode, I do mean FnP thanks for the correction
@Whitedragon, Psyflemen dreads are the answer there (darn 4 TL str8 shots) but with assaulting GK's even aginst foot nobs your only forcing them to take like 1 more save on average.

Grim, I hear you, but with their force weapons turned on, each failed save is a whole model removed vs just 1 wound in the bucket.

If the Rune Priest is doing his job, all of those force weapons and psychic powers are worthless. It's just like any other army its all about understanding it. GK's are good, but not unbeatable.

Tony Malave
http://chicagokamikazes.blogspot.com/

Don't forget the guy who takes a weak army just to pick up the Best Painted prize to cover admission and have some fun games.

I agree with everyone else about GKs, though, solely because of fortitude. I saw a game of GK versus DE where every crew shaken/stunned result for the GK meant they could move on to shooting the next ravager, but every crew shaken/stunned result for the DE meant nothing.

Oaka wrote:Don't forget the guy who takes a weak army just to pick up the Best Painted prize to cover admission and have some fun games.

I'm that guy. thanks for the $50 gift card for paint comp.

Lol curse you. I'm the guy that just misses best painted by 1 or 2 points and get the $50 sportmanship award....

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:Lol curse you. I'm the guy that just misses best painted by 1 or 2 points and get the $50 sportmanship award....

Silly, they don't give sportsmanship awards. Sportmanship amounts to knowing your army and rules and buying the other person a drink while playing.

Well, i had a few and seen them awarded. It generally comes down to being fair or sometimes playing the game for the games sake. Putting aside winning and losing, occasional "hold on, your at 12" i would go for a Rapid fire" because at the end of the day in battle that is what they would do. Space Marines would not fire once, if they could fire twice. I think it's more about the spectacle for me with Wargaming, especially at tournaments where you get nicely painted armies facing off against each other. I think you Yanks call it "Hearing the Drums of War" or something, i call it enjoying the ambience.

imalave wrote:If the Rune Priest is doing his job, all of those force weapons and psychic powers are worthless. It's just like any other army its all about understanding it. GK's are good, but not unbeatable.

Tony Malave
http://chicagokamikazes.blogspot.com/

If the rune priest is in range of every power, every time, he'll stop half the powers. Doesn't make powers useless, by any means and that is the best you can hope for.

Reecius wrote:

imalave wrote:If the Rune Priest is doing his job, all of those force weapons and psychic powers are worthless. It's just like any other army its all about understanding it. GK's are good, but not unbeatable.

Tony Malave
http://chicagokamikazes.blogspot.com/

If the rune priest is in range of every power, every time, he'll stop half the powers. Doesn't make powers useless, by any means and that is the best you can hope for.

You're right Reece. Against GK's, the Rune Priest is just as effective as blocking anyone else's powers. A LD10 Psychic hood really does well against the GK's though since most of the troops are only LD8-9. Eldar RoW and Tyranid Shadows of the Warp are amazing though.

With 6th edition around the corner; and SoB, Tau, and Necron all getting new codices; I think the tournament landscape is going to shift dramatically in the next 6 months.

I haven't really seen a TAC GK list other than purifier spam than can handle all horde, Alpha strike, and mech armies; although there's a big gap between people that are playing the grey knights because the codex is good and people that are playing the grey knights because they themselves are good.

Speaking about CSM, if history is any indicator, we can expect a CSM codex right before 6th. And as a competitive army, 9 Oblits backed up by PM and KB with 2 winged DP always does well in every batrep I've seen.