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I dont play in tournamants but very much enjoying reading batreps/reviews of them and keeping an eye on their trends and developments.
With the summer season about to kick off (and several tournaments having already finished) does anyone have any views on potential army trends we might see?

From browsing the batrep threads/army and general tactics threads would the following statements be accurate?

GKs will be a potentially good counter to DE.
Mech IG will not be as prominent as previous years.
Mech DE will be prominent but may struggle to finish in the top brackets.
Builds such as Razor spam, MSUs etc will still feature a lot.
Very few people (relatively speaking of course) will field Necrons/Tau/Footdar to the top brackets.
There may be an upsurge in DAs/Templars with their recent rules amended.

Im more then open to having these dispelled, as I said my tourny knowledge is not first hand.

Edited:
Results to date as of 1/07/2011:

Based on GW circuit results to date from here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=0&aId=14700053&start=1&multiPageMode=true

Astronomi Toronto May-10 1st Orks
Astronomi Toronto May-10 2nd Eldar
Astronomi Toronto May-10 3rd Space Marines
The Alamo May-10 1st Imperial Guard
The Alamo May-10 2nd Space Marines
The Alamo May-10 3rd Orks
Bolter Beach Jun-10 1st Orks
Bolter Beach Jun-10 2nd Space Marines
Bolter Beach Jun-10 3rd Imperial Guard
Patriot Games Jun-10 1st Imperial Guard
Patriot Games Jun-10 2nd Space Marines
Patriot Games Jun-10 3rd Tyranids
Battle for Blobs Park Jun-10 1st Imperial Guard
Battle for Blobs Park Jun-10 2nd Imperial Guard
Battle for Blobs Park Jun-10 3rd Imperial Guard
Game Summit Jun-10 1st Orks
Game Summit Jun-10 2nd Imperial Guard
Astronomi-con Dallas Jun-10 1st Orks
Astronomi-con Dallas Jun-10 2nd Space Marines
Astronomi-con Dallas Jun-10 3rd Daemonhunters
ConQuest LA Invasion Jun-10 1st Space Marines
ConQuest LA Invasion Jun-10 2nd Imperial Guard
ConQuest LA Invasion Jun-10 3rd Orks
14th Black Crusade Jun-10 1st Tyranids
14th Black Crusade Jun-10 2nd Space Marines
14th Black Crusade Jun-10 3rd Tyranids

Warwick RI, 4/06, 2000 points
1 Salamanders
2 SWs
3 Grey Knights

Slaughter in Space, 28-29/05, 2000 points
1 IG
2 Orks
3 Orks
4 Nids
5 Orks

Railhead Rumble, 10-12/06, 2000 points
1 Templars
2 DE
3 Wolves
4 TBC
5 TBC

Welsh Champs, 28-29/05, 1750 points
1 DE
2 Mech IG
3 SM
4 GKs
5 Vanilla SM

IDM GT, 11-12/06, 2000 points
1 Eldar (Dual seer counsel)
2 Demons (fiend heavy list)
3 Demons (fiend heavy list)
4 Tyranids (dual tyrant and doom)
5 Eldar (mechdar)

Grim Open, 16-18/06, 2000 points
1 Space Marines (Salamanders)
2 Blood Angels
3 Imperial Guard
4 Orks
5 Grey Knights

RTT Pittsburgh, 18/06, 1850 points
1 Dark Eldar (wych/raider spam)
2 Tau (Mech)
3 Tyranids (tervigon and big bugs)
4 Space Wolves (thunderwolves)
5 Grey Knights (all paladins)

Endlessgaming Con, 18-19/06, 2000 points
1 Space Wolves
2 Inquisition (Grey Knights)
3 SM Iron Hands

Bugeater Championships, 24-26/06, 1850 points
1 CSM
2 BA
3 Eldar
4 DAs
5 DE

Vegas GT (ToS), 18-09/06, 1850 - Results based off Mannheims table analysis only
1 Orks
2 Orks
3 BA
4 GK
5 SM

RTT New Jersey, 25/06, 2000 points
1 Grey Knights
2 Orks
3 Deathwing
4 Blood Angels
5 Imperial Guard

Any other views on what might develope for the season or shocks/trends we might see?

*tumbleweeds*
No forthcoming views?

To early to really tell but I don't think you're way off the mark.

I've seen DA at tourney's recently, which was surprising, they didn't do real well though.

I play a mostly Mech IG, I've got a platoon of infantry in a large blob so it's kind of a hybrid but still mostly mech. I hope it does well though.

I haven't had a chance to play GK yet though so not sure how they may change the meta game. I think that will be the big thing. I don't see a whole lot changing unless the GK does something to do it.

I just don't see DE as ever being a consistantly high placing army. To many armies out there that have builds that are to tough for them to deal with IMO.

I disagree, theres not a whole lot out there that can deal with 7 to 9 venoms, some raiders, and 3 ravagers. And thats not even including the crews.

Just had a tourney in South Wales DE won. He is a skilled player but he maximised his list and various bits and bobs, there was a moment that included a 36" Turboboost in his last game. Dark Lance's anyone? It was a pretty good little tournament with some damn good players.

well the DE took care of business against some fairly brutal opposition.

Space Wolves did okay, Blood Angels with their Decent of Angels with BAAL Pred's and lots of FNP were popular as was Mephiston. Lots of Codex SM players too, which kept things interesting as GUN line armies went up against Alpha Strike Armies and some interesting loadout's with 6 Land SPeeders in one army + plus a Storm full of scouts.

Only 2 nid Players, Genestealers with poison Claws and adrenal glands (not sure if they were right) allowed them to pile in at speed and put down some serious wounds (high initative) even on Assault Terminators & Characters with good Inv saves.

Slaughter in Space 3 had all of one Wolf player there and his list was pretty damn tame. Orks and GK were the most prevalent, but only the Orks did well, with most players as top finishers. One of the meanest Leafblower lists I have seen in a while took overall, mostly because he got a sieze in game five against Levi's Battlewagon rush. Dark Eldar did solidly, but not as good as the Orks, generally speaking.

I don't care if there are loads of 'codex of the month' meta lists.

What I do care about if I see all the same Space Wolf armies as last year now being put on the table as bad counts as grey knights with minimal conversions and no where close to WYSIWYG.

I would rather get my skull caved in by meta lists all day long than play a confusing proxy army or bad counts as army. Everymarines are fine... GKs are not everymarines.

Orock wrote:I disagree, theres not a whole lot out there that can deal with 7 to 9 venoms, some raiders, and 3 ravagers. And thats not even including the crews.

They better pray they go first because my army could gun down way more than half of that first turn, even with cover and I know of some Razor spam lists that can deal out even more first turn light vehicle killing. I played in a 1000 point tourney a couple weeks ago and played a DE player with 6-7 vehicles (4-5 raiders and 2 ravagers I think) and after first turn he only had 2 mobile vehicles, everything else was dead or immobilized and he had plenty of cover. This is the reason I say I don't see DE as consistantly placing well. They're a very good army that will just be absolutely WRECKED by some builds, not all, or really that many but a couple of the more common power builds right now can end the game for them turn 1 if they don't go first. And reserving just makes me smile with my OotF, unless they're insanely lucky I'll be pulling them apart piecemeal.

vonjankmon wrote:

Orock wrote:I disagree, theres not a whole lot out there that can deal with 7 to 9 venoms, some raiders, and 3 ravagers. And thats not even including the crews.

They better pray they go first because my army could gun down way more than half of that first turn,

If a DE mech army is not going first, it should start with nothing on the board.

A lot of this is going to depend on tournament style. Events that require massacres are going to see very different list successes and failures from events that require bare wins only; the same applies to missions selected, and whether they over- or under-weigh the value of certain builds, etc. etc.

It's hard to establish trends otherwise, besides saying that popular or perceived-as-powerful codices will be seen more commonly than less powerful ones.


I also agree with NKelsch; a marine with a bolter, or a marine with a bolt pistol and ccw, is not a marine with a nemesis force sword and storm bolter.

When it comes to Dark Eldar, there is going to be a very large gap between those that bring them and those that do well with them. Dark Eldar, while they will be one of the better builds due to darklight spam, will require a competent player to pull off a massacre with few casaulties.

I see Grey Knights doing very well overall, due to the ability to come back from a mistake. They are one of the rare 'brand-new' armies that a lot of players will take simply because they're the most recent release but are resistant to many game mistakes. With most armies, you can hit a vehicle so it isn't a threat for a turn and move on to the next vehicle. With Grey Knights, you have to destroy a vehicle before you can move on to another vehicle. If you get a Crew Stunned against a ravager, you're done for that turn. I've seen a GK land raider shrug off everything.

I agree with MVBrandt, pour example one of the five games i played at the weekend Tournament was a "Dawn of War" versus an entire SM Biker Army with a SM Captain on a bike.

Needless to say they setup half-way across the board with his bikes, and i setup my 2 x TACs and RB's with everything else off the board as they weren't troops. He got 1st turn, Bikes = Relentless + MM = I got PWNED!

Infact i got UBER PWNED, my Devastators, preds, dreds, etc all got slagged with MM by the ned of turn 2. His list was perfect for that opponent, that board, that circumstance. I literally could do nothing, being helpless in the face of an Enemy is a horrible thing and it will happen now and again especially on Mission Tournaments. The advantage comes when I get the Open battlefield with some nice ruins for my devastators and they start throwing down lots of ML blast markers and forcing 15+ saves per round!

GK are the sickness, they have all the answers for the meta game. In my limited opinion they knock BA out of the top 3 only because they are better than BA at what BA does. I thought BA were better than SW and IG before but what do I know? shrug

I agree with MVBrandt, scoring determines the number of viable lists. In a massacre format Necrons and Tau have no chance. Lists that are designed to plink your opponent and maneuver smartly are at a disadvantage to someone just trying to smash face. Seizing the initiative in the last round can win the whole tournament.

I also agree that counts as is bad if it is confusing. Counts as should always be obvious or easily explained. It seems like alot of people act like someone is going to say these tactical marines are termaguants. Lets not be dogmatic about counts as and also lets not give any one any slack if they are trying to perpetrate.

I fear Eldar are dead and gone because they have trouble beating the latest codexes.

We will see a lot of Gery Knights because they are a small army and easy to paint.

Can you qualify what a massacre is? Is that tabling someone or the KP difference between opponents?
Not too familiar with the tourney rule setups.

What sort of builds might do better under the massacre rules?

Usually a huge difference in KP/Victory points/your opponent is gone from the board.

Generally HtH combat armies are the ones more likely to score massacres. Shooting armies can do it but a smart opponent can always find somewhere to hide some units if they really need to. Armies like DE, BA, and such that get up close and personnal tend to either get shot up crossing the board and loose or make it to their opponents lines and just roll them up.

That's been my general experience at least.

The big trend I see is lots of 2k point 'nova' style win/loss events. Honestly this is the biggest change in a long time. The old GW run GT events were all massacre/major/minor affairs usually at 1750/1850. Then 'ardboyz showed up with the 2500 point games, which while keeping the massacre/major/minor scoring caused quite a few places to up their points to 2500 as practice.

Now, with the 'Nova' being the new big thing, I expect more 2k point events with their primary/secondary/tertiary objectives ala adepticon, and about 25%-33% straight win/loss advancement inplace of battlepoints. 'Ard boyz is latter in the year, so I expect very few 2500 point events in the near future.

It depends on the format of the tournament, you can have a good 30points per mission as per our standard template. I have posted up our system here for you guys to see. I think this method is more balanced as if you fight well but lose, you still get credit and points. The mission setup is at page 4.

http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=35

It is vital you understand the rules In order to qualify for points , many is the time I have draw or won because the player was too intent on killing me instead of moving a scoring unit into the required range.

A meta-list can do well in a "SMASH FACE" (love this term ) Tournament, but in one like this one from last weekend a more balanced and flexible force will be required.

Blackmoor wrote:

We will see a lot of Gery Knights because they are a small army and easy to paint.

Bingo

So who won the Welsh champs?

It would be nice to have more straight win/loss tournaments like Nova. When you score by margin of victory a great and close game is worth a lot less points to the winner than a game where you thoroughly trounce your opponent. You have to balance that against Margin of Victory with multiple objectives keeping a losing player interested in the game no matter how poorly they are doing. There is alot to be said for that since we pay a lot of money and time to travel to these bigger tournaments.

What armies win really depends on the missions, and if you have a win/loss or massacre system. Terrain also matters some. Armies like Eldar and Tau can make it in win/loss tournaments but have a hard time getting massacres. Shooty armies like IG love terrain sparse boards but are at a disadvantage when everything gets cover and they have to take many difficult terrain tests with their tanks.

GK are top tier. They have not only decent cc capabilities making them strong vs horde armies, but also decent shooting with Psyfleman Dreads and psycannons.
Moreover, the point increase from a Marine to a GK Marine is not very large so that GK armies are smaller but not much smaller than Marine armies.

GK are ridiculous for the points. Very bad design, IMO. They get incredibly powerful options for insultingly low points cost. They may very well knock Wolves out of the top spot.

Fortitude, cleansing flame, pysflemen, sanctuary are the main culprits as well as army wide force weapons. These are just too powerful vs too many armies, particularly the weaker books.

Add this tot he fact that it is a small, cool army that is easy to collect and paint and you have a recipe for Space Wolves part 2.

In terms of format, I am happy to see an increase in competitive style tournaments and tournaments in general. I think that they are very important to the long term growth and health of the hobby.

i love to face mec da with my mec ig , my stuff is harder, all my stuff shoots down theirs, only dlance hurts me. If the start everything in reserve, master of the fleet just bums their plan away, and makes game easier. At GT recently de player held all in reserve and lost 16 kp to 1. GK have so many options of good builds from their list , will be nice to see which ones do better.

Been looking at the "Slaughter in Space" results, 4 Orks in the top 10, one GK army.

Whilst the GKs may be classed as top tier, are they out long enough for competitive builds to triumph vs the myriad of builds currently (both old and new)?

Like most things in life, the more practice one has the better experience and hence the ability to deal with different situations.

Is anyone playing GKs in upcoming tourneys? How many practice games have you had approx and vs what types of builds?

@Ratius
I was at the SiS and there are several factors that need to be considered when analyzing that information.

1.) The Ork players that did well are some very, very good, seasoned tournament players with lots of experience behind them.

2.) None of the GK armies there were what I would consider totally optimized tournament armies. There were some good ones, but not top builds, IMO.

3.) The missions were a far deviance from book standard missions, several of which forced players to come at one another which heavily favors assault armies like Orks.

I have played against some hard GK lists and they have literally nearly no weaknesses. They are a tad bit too good, IMO. I think the game designers got a little heavy handed with shoring up the GK shortcomings.

Cleansing flame is way, way overkill. Two units of purifiers charging into, or being charged by low save units will nearly wipe them out before anyone swings.

Aegis, fortitude for 5 points. That is slowed. Extra armor costs 15!

Psy ammunition for 5 points? So, so, so stupid. A psyfilmen dread is one of the permier shooting units in the game and it costs less than it should be about 20-25 points.

Sanctuary is just stupid. Armies without grenades (Tyranids, some Daemon units) just get raped. Combine this with cleansing flame and army wide force weapons and a lot of units just become totally wasted points, like any Tyranid Monstrous Creature geared towards assault.

Once list builders find the sweet spot between taking henchmen and GK units, we will see lists that are incredibly hard to beat as they will have almost no weaknesses.

I think the book would have been much better with a few weaknesses built into it.

Reece, I swear you and I need to game a lil at the NOVA if my schedule allows; they're good, really good, and we're building/using all the sweet spot lists against other options out there ... I just think you need to give it a little bit of time to adjust; Purifiers are still terribly overpriced for how poorly they stand up to torrent and small arms fire, and the dreads are just as killable as any other AV12 unit in the game, with the Vens being tougher but appropriately costed.

Woosah, good buddy; they're nasty nasty nasty, but ... I'm not sure I'm seeing the OP-ness quite yet.

The problem with Gks is that people haven't been bringing the A-game lists, I agree. The best lists should just take as many psycannons as they can as its basically 4th edition assault cannon spam but you can get 2x as many. A coteaz FAQ could drastically change things too, if you're allowed to have unlimited henchmen units then you will see insane mech lists

First game I played with grey knights I would have basically had an easy massacre against one of our best players in the area if I didnt roll a double 6 for something important :p Barring very unlikely events I find that sorta sad how easy it was to crush wolves with a purifier + dreadnought list (Not even optimized since it was my first game with them). I shouldnt be able to pick up an army and do so well in my first game

@Reece

I disagree that GK's are over the top. They do have weaknesses. Try getting all the things you mentioned into a single list w/out it having issues. They are just new and shiny right now. You'll settle in once you play them some more.

I agree, it´s verry tough to bring all the goodness in from the GK codex. You will have to compromise alot. But yes they got a lot of shiny stuff and will be tough to break, but IMHO it´s doable.