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unbeliever87 wrote:

Curly The Despoiler wrote:you can actually get some really effective and fun lists out of the CSM codex... not to mention the fact that you can theme a chaos army better than any other... its not for everyone ill agree with you there... but if you know how to write up a decent army list... you should be able to make any codex work...

We must be talking about two different books. Go through the codex, see how all the long range shooting is in the HS slot? See how the troops/transport can only contribute within 18"?See the limited number of fast moving Melta? See the lack of decent upgrades and overall lack of flexibility? See all the random/just-for-fun units that can't actually be relied upon in a competitive setting?

alabamaheretic wrote:agreed sides he said he wants a fun list that is competitive not some waac list

Tell me, what's the difference between competitive and WAAC? Fun is where you find it; some people have fun by playing random lists without caring about the results, some people have fun by playing strong lists and playing to the best of their abilities within the frameworks (rules) given to them.

OK fether... the CSM codex is themed (as are all the codices) so thats why you dont have all the upgrades that may be in other marine codices... not to mention the fact that csm armies arnt prodominantly shooting armies... they take the fight to the enemy in most cases and shoot along the way... if you expect to sit back and shoot with a chaos army, youre playing them wrong... thats like saying the tau codex is horrible because they dont have many combat upgrades... think about the type of army it is supposed to be before ragging on the codex...
but i totally agree with you that rhinos are infact... not rubbish

When did I say the Chaos army wasn't 'themed'? All I said was that the codex was underpowered because it lacked the options that the more competitive codexes have. This is 5th edition, where mech and shooting is king. With a small number of exceptions, competitive lists win in the movement and shooting phase, not in the assault phase.

But hey, keep ignoring my points and making excuses for why a terrible codex is terrible.

FYI, noteable exceptions consists of: DoA Blood Angels, some Thunderwolf Cav lists, one or two Ork lists...that's all I can think of. Remember, I'm talking about competitive lists, not random CC lists that you lose to becuase you're terrible.

The Tau codex is also underpowered, but that's mainly because it's old and only has one or two competitive builds. Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Kroot, Disruption Pods and the ability to stall the opponent (Gun Drones, Piranhas, JSJ) are the only reason Tau can remain competitive, and even then it requires some luck.

all im saying is that the csm codex isnt a terrible codex... ive won a few tourneys using this codex (2 quite recently) including a games workshop staff tournament....
i just think that rather than complain about the chaos codex to a guy that clearly wants to do a chaos army, make the best of a bad situation and actually help him with a list that can be fun and competetive.... hes just versing his friend... hes not playing for the champion of the universe lol
i understand if you think that the csm codex in inferior because youre unable to adapt to the somewhat limited resources that it has... but just coz you dont see a way to make it work... doesnt mean that it wont work for other people

im sick of arguing on this poor guys thread... lets just agree to disagree
i like the codex because im used to it and can use it... you think its gak because you cant...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and mate... its people like you that kill the hobby for other people

Honest question here. Do you consider your usual Nurgle list competitive?

For what it's worth, this is about the most competitive CSM list I can think of off the top of my head. Points from memory:
Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Chaos Terminator Squad (3), 3 x Combi-Melta - 105
Chaos Terminator Squad (3), 3 x Combi-Melta - 105
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Obliterators (3) - 225
Obliterators (3) - 225
Obliterators (3) - 225
Total: 2000

By the way, we're in Australia, outside of Arcanacon/MiF there's no such thing as a competitive tournament here. Even those two shoot themselves in the foot with overbearing comp, painting and sports scores.

I dont have a set list i use all the time... but none of mine are written to be overly competetive... my armies tend to be very themed... ive just used nurgle for long enough and against so many different opponents that i know how to use them effectively... at the end of the day, you can have the most flawless list and still lose... it comes down to good decisions and the luck of the dice
as noob as it sounds... im not into writing lists just coz i know theyll smash mu opponent... eg... i sometimes field defilers... theyre really not as good as people think lol
and there may not be many official tournaments however i can assure you that there are alot of locally run veteran gamer tournaments all around the country.... and the staff tournaments for GW are quite challenging (sometimes lol)


i can tell you now though that that list is good... ive gotta say though... something that works well in a competative list is 2 dreadnaughts with 2 close combat weapons.... theyre a reasonably cheap yet tough distraction... and if they do make it to the enemy (which they usually do) they can make a real mess lol... i see we have the same philosophy with meltas... the more the better lol (then again anyone that plays marines should think the same way lol)

The only way I would consider running Dreadnoughts when there are vehicles of your own around is as a cheap Missile Launcher/Autocannon platform, removing all DCCW entirely. Dreads are slower than Rhinos, so with a DCCW there's a very good chance of charging and killing your own Rhinos. At least with Missile Launcher/Autocannon the chance of killing your own vehicles is low (ie, firing the ML as a Frag) when they do decide to go nuts. I did consider them when writing that list, feel free to sub them in for the Terminators if you like.

Correct, Defilers really aren't as good as most people think. When you consider that they have to compete for spots with Obliterators and Havoc squads they're even worse.

unbeliever87 wrote:Honest question here. Do you consider your usual Nurgle list competitive?

For what it's worth, this is about the most competitive CSM list I can think of off the top of my head. Points from memory:
Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Chaos Terminator Squad (3), 3 x Combi-Melta - 105
Chaos Terminator Squad (3), 3 x Combi-Melta - 105
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Obliterators (3) - 225
Obliterators (3) - 225
Obliterators (3) - 225
Total: 2000

By the way, we're in Australia, outside of Arcanacon/MiF there's no such thing as a competitive tournament here. Even those two shoot themselves in the foot with overbearing comp, painting and sports scores.

actually no i dont think plauge marines are the most competative way t run CSM. test after test i find CSM outright just better. More guns, more wounds, yes less survivaility but most things that are geared to kill marines kill marines just fine. I find my favorite squads are 10CMS 2xmeltas, IoCG and a rhino. 215 points, 10guys, rerollable 9LD, Icon and lots of bolters... More damage output, better in assault.
And 9 oblits is way too many for 2000... you need more targets and trick...

I run 3x2man oblits squads in ardboys...

All in all CSM are better not using MSU and filling your units... Rhinoes are really just dilivery systems for chaos, not as much of a gun wagon. I find 10man CSM and 8man Zerker squads the most competative troops. Also if your looking to go competative run 2 Daemon Prines,,, hands down one of the best HQ in this game. I always run a tzeench warptime prince and slaanesh lash prince. A lot fo the time I run a greater daemon as well.

Do you know why I went with the Plague Marines, over a CSM squad? Plague marines as per the setup above cost 175 points per unit. A CSM squad with 2 meltaguns (1 Meltagun and 1 Champ with combi-melta) cost 155. T5, FNP and a more useful Meltagun is worth 20 points, especially on a minimum sized troops unit.

Do you know why Berzerkers aren't the best troop? No Meltaguns. Good luck assaulting tanks and hitting on 6's.

Do you know why a sorcerer is better than a prince in this list? He's cheaper and can cast powers safely from inside the rhino. Deamon princes get shot up and die first turn.

I would love to see your 'ard boys list.

Edit: Let's try something a little more towards your direction though. Again, points from memory.

Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Dreadnought, Missile Launcher, Autocannon - 110
Dreadnought, Missile Launcher, Autocannon - 110
Chaos Space Marines (10), 2 x Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 215
Chaos Space Marines (10), 2 x Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 215
Chaos Space Marines (10), 2 x Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 215
Chaos Space Marines (5), 1 x Meltaguns, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Chaos Space Marines (5), 1 x Meltaguns, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Chaos Space Marines (5), 1 x Meltaguns, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Obliterators (2) - 150
Obliterators (2) - 150
Obliterators (2) - 150
Total: 2000

More firepower spread out around more units. Less Meltaguns, but more bodies overall. Dark Eldar and Mech IG will rape you a little more softly.

You have gotten enough replys, there is a good chance you will never get to my post, but personally, I think obliterators & defilers are superior to vindicators. Oblity's have a metric ton of firepower whereas defilers are a bit tougher & have ordinance that they can move & shoot (if that is all they shoot). Bottom line oblits have more power whereas defilers & predators are a bit tougher. But I think, with that many PM's you are more than tough enough & 4 obliterators should do you just fine. However, personally I really like khorne berzerkers & noise marines (did I mispell khorne?). Berzerkers are overall the best marked unit in my opinion, but used properly, the AP 3 small blast pinning effect of a blastmaster is very useful. Just 5 noise marines; one w/ a blastmaster, the others with sonic blasters, is a very shooty/dangerous unit, not to be underestimated (particularly if you deploy them in a good positionwith cover). Marked units are great for claiming objectives; but I would say Khorne berzerkers (due to thier sheer power), & plague marines ( for thier survivability), are the best at this (for CSM's). I hope this helps (although I'm probably a bit late)

: )

I would also like to note transports are a lot more useful since the las rulebook update, so it would serve you well to consider how useful transports might be to your army if used correctly, particularly in certain missions.