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Kid_Kyoto wrote:Can we wait till we see them to argue how they should have looked?

For all we know they're plastic Vostreans.

I would be even more excited for more affordable Vostroyans than affordable Kriegers.

Heh maybe since its "Storm Troopers", perhaps there would be Terrax Guard

By I agree, wait and see

Bicker, bicker...

Look, girls, if you want " special" troops with cables from weapon to backpack, try Ramshackle Games' Support troopers-- come with gas masks or bare heads, choice of weapons, right size etc.

If you want variety in your IG regiments, look around, there's plenty out there. I've just had a batch of Prince August "Warzone" Imperial infantry from ebay, at about £4 for 10 troops (ie a fifth of the cost of GW equivalents), again all with gasmasks, M16 lookalike guns, WW1 helmets, and a basic paint job makes them presentable as another IG unit.

The market's awash with 28mm figures, most at prices way below GW'S. Don't get me wrong, I like GW- the sculpting and moulding are great, they're fairly easy to kitbash, etc etc etc.
BUT if you want to field a horde army (like,errmm, IG), you want/need lots of troops, preferably at less than £7 each.

Here endeth the lesson......

Ahh but here is the predicament

Some people like/have to play at GW stores. They wont take kindly to 3rd party products

The market is not 'awash' very few plastic products out there and no one wants 20 pounds of pewter for an army

IG GENERAL wrote:Here endeth the lesson......

I'm guessing you were home schooled?

Las wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Why did I say that? Because nothing about them harkens to WWI trench fighters--the armor is too compacted, and it's clearly designed to be worn as a composite chestplate.
The only thing that harkens to WWI and chemical warfare are the gas masks on some of the figures, and those style gas masks are still in use today.
Why? Because there's basically two kinds of gas masks you can make that actually function.
The classic 'bug eye' where you have the filter and two eye lenses on the mask and the 'faceplate' style you see today where it's a large rounded "visor" essentially that allows for much much better vision capabilities.

Guh, youre being quite pedantic.

Go into your 5th ed codex to the Stormtrooper page and look at the artwork. Then look at this. Do you see where similarities can be made? How, in my opinion, I could see connection in influence when it comes to artistic style which matches up with my own personal taste? I realize its not exactly the same (obviously!) but your's isn't the impression I get from it, and I like it. If you dont agree, fine, but dont tell me my interpretation is wrong. Its insulting and frankly a terrible way to go about discussion.


Edit: link doesnt seem to be working so....

Spoiler:

I don't see it.

What I DO see with the 3rd ed Stormies is these guys with gas masks and packs:



As someone who owns 4 different styles of Stormtrooper(2nd, 3rd, Kasrkin, and DKoK Grenadiers), the 3rd ed haven't aged well.

Great news, plastic storm troopers would be great, been put off coughing up for the metal box set. But for conversion purposes this kit could be nice. I will keep my eye's on this, cheers Kroot.

Kanluwen wrote:Again, I agree with this to a point. In the case of Ogryn, it makes sense that they kind of 'adopt' the characteristics of the regiments they serve with. They're supposed to be fairly imitative with a Bone 'Ead in charge.

I'm ok with the different units being given militaristic looks... and admittedly ogryns don't look all that cadian at present... ratlings kinda... I'm just happy they got redone. For those two and even the rough riders... their form is as much a defining part of their exotic nature. So it doesn't need to be as showy in the way Stormtroopers need to be.

Kanluwen wrote:
Considering I can't think of a time where they really "came from the heart of the Imperium" I have to disagree. Stormtroopers are raised by the Schola Progenium on worlds which range from hellish deathworlds to civilized parities of humanity at its peak, and the Progenium most definitely is an Imperial institution, but the Stormtroopers themselves are part of the Munitorum. When we get down to it, all their equipment will likely be done in a 'local' pattern based on where they're being brought in from wouldn't you think?

I just mean "heart of the Imperium" as a more general way of saying that Stormtroopers, because their allegiance is suppose to be to the Imperium rather than any particular planet... don't necessarily get posted where they trained. So properly Imperium raised Stormtroopers, shouldn't necessarily look like the local grown "stormtroopers"... similar but not the same. Thats part of what makes them exotic. They be dress appropriate to their respective planet, but I imagine there would be more uniformity between Stormtrooper regiments than between the local grown regiments of any two given planets.

Consider the Adeptus Arbites... they also come from the Schola Progenium... and they are pretty uniformly equipped across the galaxy. Since they're primarily a paramilitary police force first... while Stormtroopers are frontline combatants, it seems reasonable that they'd be at least as consistently equiped as the Arbites, if not more so. Maybe that consistency and Imperial style has been emulated and they should look like Karsikins... but its simply not as colorful or as interesting as it could be.

Kanluwen wrote:They should look exotic, but not so exotic that they don't fit in with the setting.

Agreed.

Kanluwen wrote:I think the Vostroyans only do that because Blanche had a hand in designing the Vostroyans, and he's always been big on the kind of 'gothic' aspects of the Imperial Guard if that makes any sense. A lot of his artwork after the Vostroyans released also featured the Vostroyans or Guardsmen patterned to look like them, and most of it was meant to show generic unnamed regiments with him given free reign to do so.

I think the "gothic" aspect is something really lost on the Imperial guard. The army is so much an analogue for modern armies that they tend not to have as much of the ornaments or impracticalities that define the looks of all the other armies. They have them, just not to the same degree. Vostroyans work because from the ground up they were designed to capture that feel with their anachronisms. Cadians were never so intended... when they were concieved the notion was that the mixture of platoons from different planets would give the army its "from many world" feel.

Kanluwen wrote:I think the big problem will be that if this truly is a combined veteran/stormtrooper kit--then there's no avoiding a Kasrkin or Cadian feel.

I think this last idea of yours summarizes my concerns. Something else to consider is that GW seems insistent on supporting Catachan and they aren't exactly supported by a Kasrkin look. Its one reason I think ST should be a separate, but similar enough, style of IG.

aka_mythos wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Considering I can't think of a time where they really "came from the heart of the Imperium" I have to disagree. Stormtroopers are raised by the Schola Progenium on worlds which range from hellish deathworlds to civilized parities of humanity at its peak, and the Progenium most definitely is an Imperial institution, but the Stormtroopers themselves are part of the Munitorum. When we get down to it, all their equipment will likely be done in a 'local' pattern based on where they're being brought in from wouldn't you think?

I just mean "heart of the Imperium" as a more general way of saying that Stormtroopers, because their allegiance is suppose to be to the Imperium rather than any particular planet... don't necessarily get posted where they trained.

That's true, but that's also true for practically every Guard Regiment out there. They still are equipped based upon where they're raised/trained, as the worlds responsible for their training are also responsible for equipping them when that training is finished.
As time wears on though and the replacement gear that they have from the founding onwards, it's likely they'd start getting stuff that isn't really "localized" through the Munitorum.

So properly Imperium raised Stormtroopers, shouldn't necessarily look like the local grown "stormtroopers"... similar but not the same.

Ehhh. I can agree with this to a point, but I think it's kind of a sketchy subject. Most worlds don't actually have anything like "stormtroopers".
That's what makes the Kasrkin such a unique piece of the whole Cadian lore. They're trained in the same tactics as Stormtroopers and they can function as Stormtroopers if the need wills it, but what makes them so damned important to the Cadians is the fact that they're hard as nails and they know how to fight conventional wars alongside the Cadian Shock.
Bear in mind, I'm sure that you or someone else will bring up the point of the Death Korps Grenadiers or any of the Carapace Armored Regiments(Urdeshi, Volpone, Jantine, etc) but they are essentially "Stormtroopers Lite". They don't function in the same role as Stormtroopers--they just use the same basic equipment(Carapace and Hellguns).

Stormtroopers, in the sense of the actual Progenium's Stormtroopers, when we see them used by the Imperium at large are best used at the forefront of an attack or operating by themselves.

Thats part of what makes them exotic. They be dress appropriate to their respective planet, but I imagine there would be more uniformity between Stormtrooper regiments than between the local grown regiments of any two given planets.

I wouldn't. The local grown regiments of any two given planets might be supplied by the same Forge Worlds--which means, in all likelihood, their equipment would look similar enough that you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference.

Consider the Adeptus Arbites... they also come from the Schola Progenium... and they are pretty uniformly equipped across the galaxy. Since they're primarily a paramilitary police force first... while Stormtroopers are frontline combatants, it seems reasonable that they'd be at least as consistently equipped as the Arbites, if not more so. Maybe that consistency and Imperial style has been emulated and they should look like Kasrkins... but its simply not as colorful or as interesting as it could be.

I think the Arbites are kind of a bad example. Their armor isn't meant to simply be practical, it's also meant to readily identify them as Arbites. If you look at police forces around the world, you can almost always recognize them as "Oh, that's a police officer!".

With soldiery, you can do the same but you won't necessarily recognize a designated marksman from a USMC platoon versus a designated marksman from a Russian Spetznaz unit. The only thing that will tell you that they're "marksmen" likely will be the guns having longer barrels, bipods, and bigger scopes.

Kanluwen wrote:They should look exotic, but not so exotic that they don't fit in with the setting.

Agreed.

This is one of those things where I think it's the hardest part to 'make it fit'. You can do so much with the concept of a "Stormtrooper", but how much of it actually makes sense for 40k?

Kanluwen wrote:I think the Vostroyans only do that because Blanche had a hand in designing the Vostroyans, and he's always been big on the kind of 'gothic' aspects of the Imperial Guard if that makes any sense. A lot of his artwork after the Vostroyans released also featured the Vostroyans or Guardsmen patterned to look like them, and most of it was meant to show generic unnamed regiments with him given free reign to do so.

I think the "gothic" aspect is something really lost on the Imperial guard. The army is so much an analogue for modern armies that they tend not to have as much of the ornaments or impracticalities that define the looks of all the other armies. They have them, just not to the same degree. Vostroyans work because from the ground up they were designed to capture that feel with their anachronisms. Cadians were never so intended... when they were conceived the notion was that the mixture of platoons from different planets would give the army its "from many world" feel.

You know, I've never really understood why people feel a Guard army needs to look like it represents every single world.
I don't begrudge people who want their army to look that way, but I've always felt it kind of detracts from the army as a whole.

Kanluwen wrote:I think the big problem will be that if this truly is a combined veteran/stormtrooper kit--then there's no avoiding a Kasrkin or Cadian feel.

I think this last idea of yours summarizes my concerns. Something else to consider is that GW seems insistent on supporting Catachan and they aren't exactly supported by a Kasrkin look. Its one reason I think ST should be a separate, but similar enough, style of IG.

I think depending on how they do the kit, you could easily have something that fits with Catachans.
The big problem with Catachans though is that when you compare them and their vests to the Cadians...even the least armored Cadians look like hardcore heavy troopers.
But carapace armor+bared forearms(not wholly bared arms or carapace armor zipped open or whatever), knives attached to the armor in such a way that it's easy to reach for wetwork, smaller shoulderpads, etc could work quite well for a 'Catachan Stormtrooper' I think.

Stormtroopers/Veterans plastic kit?

Oh please, let there be camo-cloaks to make some Tanith 1st and Only minis!


Ah, wishful thinking... What a great concept!

I'm with Las on this one. Give us some proper IG Storm Trooper upgrades. Although I like the look of the 3rd ed metals much more than the Cadians and their Kasrkin, you can tell when comparing the two that the STs are in sore need of a new sculp and/or plastic kit, whereas the latter look just fine (plastics will be welcome at any point, of course, but the Kasrkin models have some years in them yet, in my opinion).

Additionally, it's quite clear (in name, fluff, battlefield role and aesthetic) that the IG STs are conceptually based on the original German Stormtroopers (which is why they look right at home next to the DKoK and Steel Legion). To deny this is just being pedantic. Which brings me to me next point: in response to those saying the 3rd metals look "out of place in the IG", is simply not the case. Go look up some old IG battle reports (specifically the one with Steel Legion Mechanised vs. Necrons), painted up nice, they look fine - like special forces/shock troops, just as they should do.

For those who like the Kasrkin and not the current ST models, that's fine. But you need to understand that the Kasrkin are the home grown, Cadian-specific, Cadian-themed answer to the generalised ST regiment that most other IG regiments deploy. Therefore, obviously, they look right at home - with Cadians! They might even cut it for some players who like the Cadian look and are happy to field Kasrkin as "counts as" models for IG STs. However, for many others (like myself), I prefer the 3rd ed aesthetic, and think that a current ed sculpt would do wonders for that visual concept and we'd have some awesome looking minis.

Unfortuneately for myself and those who think like me, it appears that others may be right when they point out the current pattern of "Cadian-ifying" the IG codex in terms of minis. Personally, if they did plastics/updates of both STs and Steel Legion, they can have all my money! If they keep the IG the way it is, then I'll just have to keep on dreaming . . .

<thread terminated; please don't revive threads that are more than one month gone.>