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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





lixulana wrote:
focus on where it says to use the shield rules from the main rule book.

You're not reading correctly. The only reference to main rule book is when it talks specifically about Parry and that you should use to rules from the main book.

So if it isn't a shield, then I can take a shield with my tyrant/bruiser?
I guess it doesn't take up a hand either, so great weapon + iron-fist should be fine.

"Ogres often cover their off-hand with a spiked metal gauntlet...."

"works exactly like" a piece of mundane armour makes it a piece of mundane armour, because otherwise it isnt working exactly like a piece of mundane armour

That makes no sense at all as we've pointed out in countless other logic demonstrations that seem to be escaping you. Works like != is. Also, if you want to get anal about works exactly like, it doesn't work exactly like, because it has its own special rules. So if you're going to harp on the fact it's exactly like means equals then it wouldn't work whilst mounted because it IS a shield. If it's a shield with extra rules, then it's not a BRB shield, as a BRB shield has specific, exact rules as defined in the big book.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




@HawaiiMatt
The description says it is a gauntlet that covers the off-hand. Sounds to me like you could still have something in that hand, yes.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




"Ogres often cover their off-hand with a spiked metal gauntlet..."

So, the off hand is only covered? Cool, that doesnt mean it has been used up!

Parry while mounted is not a property of the shield but of the Parry rules, actually DR - sorry that that escapes you. Its modifying the parry rules not eh shield rules.

Working like a shield means it has to count as a shield for the purposes of selecting magical armour, otherwise it isnt working exactly like a shield. Sorry if that escaped you
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




You keep saying it works exactly like a shield, which it doesn't. It allows parry while mounted, which shields don't. This means it doesn't work EXACTLY like a shield. Sorry if that escaped you.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




which is a modification to the Parry rules, as I explained. Not the shield rules.

"works exactly like a shield" + modification to the Parry rules. Still works exactly like a shield

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/04 09:19:19


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




So if an ironfist modifies the parry rules, but a shield doesn't, an ironfist still works EXACTLY the same as a shield? If you can't see that that is illogical than there is nothing more I can say.
   
Made in bg
Cosmic Joe





Bulgaria

So an ironfist is better than a shield but it ain't armor.
Thats masterfull logic right there.


Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't know why that is illogical to you. Better than is not the same as is. In fact, the entire point of better than is that something is different.... How else would it be better than?
   
Made in bg
Cosmic Joe





Bulgaria

I agree it isn't a shield, it's an ironfist and it's mundane armour.


Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




It doesn't say it is mundane armour, where do you get that from?
   
Made in bg
Cosmic Joe





Bulgaria

Well it's not in the magical gear section of the book.


Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Neither are great weapons and the like, but they aren't mundane armour either...
   
Made in bg
Cosmic Joe





Bulgaria

Go back two pages and find out that weapons and armors often share a selection slot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/04 10:52:54



Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Airmaniac wrote:So if an ironfist modifies the parry rules, but a shield doesn't, an ironfist still works EXACTLY the same as a shield? If you can't see that that is illogical than there is nothing more I can say.

According to the actual rules it works exactly the same as a shield, because it does. It also has additional rules, but as far as a shield goes - it is exactly the same as a shield.

You cannot see your own flawed logic either, namely that youre ignoring the rules written down in favour of something youve just made up

An ironfist is, RAW, mundane armour. "RAI" arguments otherwise are just a waste of time.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I am saying that the Ironfist isn't classified as being mundane armour or not (RaW). The RaW are conflicting: it says ironfists work exactly the same as, and then immediately giving a case where they do not work the same. Therefore, in my opinion, RaW are on nobody's side here, which means you should resort to the most logical option (which, given the fluff that Ogre Wizards don't wear armour, is that the ironfist is not mundane armour). Anyway, you guys feel free to bend the rules as always (still casting Scorch into combat nosferatu?)... It is not like you are my opponents anyway.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sigh, apparently you dont read forum rules either.

Scorch can currently be cast into combat, as can IG. If youd bothered to pay attention to any of those threads, my position on what was meant is clear.

This isnt twisting rules, this is applying clear as day rules: IF is a sheld, and allows you to wear magical armour. Anything else is arguing RAI, whcih gets you nowhere

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/04 13:16:32


 
   
Made in us
Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior




Easy with the snark, folks. It doesn't help with the "discussion".

I suggest you don't believe anything posted by thedarkavenger unless confirmed by other regular posters here at Dakka. He has shown he is incapable of basic English comprehension.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Can someone post the line in the ironfist description where it specifically says an Ironfist is a shield? I mean where it is layed out in black and white "An ironfist is a shield" or "shield; an ironfist blah blah blah".
   
Made in us
Scribe of Dhunia






OK Army book, page 32 "An ironfist works exactly the same way as a shield"

A little further down:
"As such, an Ogre using an ironfist benefits from all of the rules for shields"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/05 01:01:41


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's only 3 short paragraphs. The first is essentially fluff. The third says it can use it mounted. Below is the 2nd.
An ironfist works in exactly the same way as a shield--an Ogre using an ironfist benefits from a bonus to its armor save, and may be eligible to make a Parry save as described in the Warhammer rulebook.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scarecrow456 wrote:A little further down:
"As such, an Ogre using an ironfist benefits from all of the rules for shields"

This is only a sentence fragment and should not be construed to be a complete thought. Because it isn't (at least in English). The complete sentence indicates you get the rules for shields while mounted. There is no comma.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/05 01:13:22


   
Made in us
Scribe of Dhunia






DukeRustfield wrote:
Scarecrow456 wrote:A little further down:
"As such, an Ogre using an ironfist benefits from all of the rules for shields"

This is only a sentence fragment and should not be construed to be a complete thought. Because it isn't (at least in English). The complete sentence indicates you get the rules for shields while mounted. There is no comma.


Ogre Kingdoms Army Book wrote:As such, an Ogre using an ironfist benefits from all the rules for shields (including parry save) even if he is mounted.

That's the full and exact quote. I'm not sure what comma your referring to, but if it's the first one, it's very much there. The first line of the 3rd paragraph is just a fluff fragment, and doesn't really mean much when it comes to rule discussions.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The iron fist is neither armor or a weapon. It is simply an option/army special rule (which is why it's listed in the army book where it is) that allows the model to follow/benefit from the same rules for shields, even when mounted.

Works exactly as does not equal is.



   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Shields function as mundane armour, something working exactly like a shield works exatly like mundane armour
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





There is no listing for "mundane armor" anywhere in any of the relevant rules.

The only exception [to magical interference] to this is when a Wizard has armor as part of his standard equipment or an option for 'normal' armor, such as light armor, or a shield.

-They don't have armor as part of their standard equipment.
-They don't have light armor or a shield as options. That's RAW. You can look under their entry and see neither the word 'shield' nor 'light armor' nor 'heavy armor.'
-An ironfist is pretty clearly not 'normal' armor or it wouldn't be in a special rules section.

I think we've beaten this to death and we'll obviously need clarification. But RAW and RAI I simply don't see it.



   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




And RAW I do see it. Functioning as a shield makes something as normal an armour as you can get.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Too bad they don't say "functioning like" or "exactly like" or "sorta kinda like."

The definition of RAW is the exact wording of what is there. What you are doing is what RAI is and making an extrapolation.

If an ironfist was normal armor, it wouldn't have special rules. It would be a shield. That's normal. Scaly skin functions exactly like light/heavy armor, but it's not normal armor. If a unit had a magic mushroom that increased the armor by 1 and gave the unit a parry save when in CC it still wouldn't be a normal armor shield.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Except this is normal armour - it works exactly like a shield, working exactly like normal armour makes you "normal amour" for anything that cares, otherwise you are not "working exactly like" but "working a bit like, bit not quite like"

You are arguing RAI and not RAW, as has been proven repeatedly over these 4 pages.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





working exactly like normal armour makes you "normal amour" for anything that cares

Where is this rule in the BRB? Or army book? We're talking RAW.

otherwise you are not "working exactly like" but "working a bit like, bit not quite like"

And that's what the Ironfist does. Because it works like a shield with its own special rule added. That's RAW, and thanks for point it out. It works "not quite like" a shield.

If working exactly like makes you = then an ironfist can't work while mounted. Because it IS a shield as you keep contending. But it's not equal because it has its own rules. Equal means equal. It's 100%. 3=3. 3 != 3+1. An ironfist is a shield + special. Normal armor is a shield, light armor, heavy armor. The BRB lists nothing else. They certainly don't list ironfists.

That's RAW. (Though I don't think it will come down to RAW in the long run.)

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Except, RAW, it works exactly like a shield. You keep on ignoring this, I presume for humorous reasons. After all, we're talking RAW, and you're ignoring EXACTLY the work EXACTLY in the rules. Repeatedly.

ALso Ironfists alter the parry rules, not the shield rules. So, again, youre still wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/08 20:23:21


 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

DukeRustfield wrote:
working exactly like normal armour makes you "normal amour" for anything that cares

Where is this rule in the BRB? Or army book? We're talking RAW.

otherwise you are not "working exactly like" but "working a bit like, bit not quite like"

And that's what the Ironfist does. Because it works like a shield with its own special rule added. That's RAW, and thanks for point it out. It works "not quite like" a shield.

If working exactly like makes you = then an ironfist can't work while mounted. Because it IS a shield as you keep contending. But it's not equal because it has its own rules. Equal means equal. It's 100%. 3=3. 3 != 3+1. An ironfist is a shield + special. Normal armor is a shield, light armor, heavy armor. The BRB lists nothing else. They certainly don't list ironfists.

That's RAW. (Though I don't think it will come down to RAW in the long run.)

We've got 3 types of armor saves. Armor from equipment:

Armor Saves: Page 43
The value of a model's armor save is determined by the equipment it carries, as detailed in its entry in the relevant Warhammer Armies book.
Goes on to mention special armor, such as Gromril and chaos armor, but doesn't state those as an exclusive or complete list (otherwise empire full plate wouldn't be armor)

Armor from being mounted (part of Cav rules on page 83)

Scaly Skin (special rule, page 75).


Is the ogre riding an iron fist? No. That rules out Cav.
Is the Iron Fist equipment, or is it a Special Rule?

Seeing how Iron Fists are bought (great weapon, pistol, extra hand weapon, or ironfist; single choice, excludes others) it lends a lot of weight to an Iron Fist being equipment and not a special rule (such as the daemonic scaly skin).


I'm kind of surprised at how little effort has gone into looking up and quoting rules in this thread. Maybe I just missed it.


-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
 
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