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It's very simple! The iron fist is a Thing That Ogres Wear On Their Fists To Smash Other Things Over The Head With And Bash Still More Other Things Away From Their Guts.

Ruleswise, every discussion I've seen online and in person ends up boiled down to two camps typing "Is Not Armor!" "Is too Armor!" at each other. All the same arguments are cycled again and again, and I can see where both sides have valid points. GW needs to make a decision about this, then we'll know. Until then, accept which interpretation your local group accepts, and play on!

I agree with the above.
Locally they can't make a point of it not being armor so until the FAQ comes out locally it will be armor so problem solved.

Still would be nice to know now.

Read the posts since my last.

Hang on... let me get my defibrillator... CLEAR! *zzzaapp!*

So... are there any cogent arguments against Matt's "BRB: Armor is anything that modifies an armor save" and "BRB: wizzies that have the option for normal armor can take..."?

I think that's the last place we left off.

Off-topic: Not one person in 30 at my 2 FLGS's even hint at contesting it's armor-ness. It's interesting there are a handful of die-hard "notarmornotarmornotarmor" folk here. Are the kiddies mad because their local ogre-fanboys can finally field a tier one list? Awwwww....

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:So... are there any cogent arguments against Matt's "BRB: Armor is anything that modifies an armor save" and "BRB: wizzies that have the option for normal armor can take..."?

Yes. Because the "quote" listed does not exist in the BRB as has been pointed out numerous times. Scaly Skin is not armor. A mount is not armor. Nowhere does it say that "Armor is anything that modifies an armor save," because it's simply not true based upon other rules.

Let's stop resurrecting the thread and not adding anything.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:So... are there any cogent arguments against Matt's "BRB: Armor is anything that modifies an armor save" and "BRB: wizzies that have the option for normal armor can take..."?

Yes. Because the "quote" listed does not exist in the BRB as has been pointed out numerous times. Scaly Skin is not armor. A mount is not armor. Nowhere does it say that "Armor is anything that modifies an armor save," because it's simply not true based upon other rules.

Let's stop resurrecting the thread and not adding anything.

My argument has been miss quoted.
My argument actually said that Scaly Skin is not armor (it's in the special rule section), and that mounts and barding are not armor (as they are listed under properties of unit types).

You cannot argue what does and doesn't count as armor if you can't define armor.

I'm using page 43 in the rule book, where it states:
The value of a models armor save is determined by the equipment it carries, as detailed in its entry in the relevant Warhammer Armies Book. (rule then lists common armors and gives saves).
Some types of special armour, such as (meaning not an all inclusive list) Chaos armor or the Gromril armor of the Dwarfs, grant a formidable 4+ armor save.

If you could provide me with a better explanation of what is armor, then I'd be inclined to believe that an Iron Fist is not armor.
Please include a page number to avoid future claims of "does not exist).

With no other actual reference present, I'll be playing Iron fist = equipment, equipment = armor; until a FAQ, or page reference states otherwise.

-Matt

Yes, you have already stated that you are devising your own rules. And that is awesome for you. Others have stated likewise.

Mounts have some listing under Armor Saves per the FAQ.

Reference Section – Armour Saves
Add “Shield 6+
Mounted + Shield 5+”

An ironfist is clearly not armor. It MAY be a shield. But a Shield is not armor, as it has its own subsection equal (and not under) Armor Saves--and it has its own rules that regular light/heavy/etc armor does not, such as if you swap it out for a GW once close combat starts. An ironfist MAY qualify as "normal" armor per magical interference, as a shield does.

But you have not supplied anything that you haven't already. Nor have I. Nor has anyone else.

So a shield isnt armour, but is?

You're going round in circles

Oddly enough, when they FAQ this, they will rule that something that is EXACTLY a shield will indeed be a shield in all cases.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So a shield isnt armour, but is?

You're going round in circles

Oddly enough, when they FAQ this, they will rule that something that is EXACTLY a shield will indeed be a shield in all cases.

Well it's NOT exactly a shield it "WORKS EXACTLY" like a shield but it is a gauntlet which is armor thou I think it'll be ruled as not counting as armor for list sake per discription it is armor. just read straight out. p.s. I vote not armor but as currently written it is.

Listen up, anti-armor crowd.

--2nd paragraph on p. 32 starts with "An Ironfist works exactly the same way as a shield.."

--3rd paragraph on p. 32 starts with "In addition.."

Does everyone know what "in addition" means? Yes! It means AND! The rulebook literally says it works exactly the same way as a shield, and the extra bonuses ogres get are IN ADDITION TO THIS. For people still having trouble, you can say: In addition to working exactly the same way as a shield, all shield rules apply when the ogre is mounted.

Pro-armor folks. It's fun to debate "what is armor?" with the anti-armor crowd, about as fun as hearing Clinton say "Well, that depends on what your definition of 'is' is.", but there's no reason to take it further. "Works exactly like a shield", and "in addition" are as far as we should have to take it.

Just thought I'd throw my third set of 2 cents on the fire. Now... debate the definition of "in addition" with me, someone... please.

A shield isn't armor. A shield is a shield. No one in any army book can say a shield is armor because it's not. It has its own rules in the BRB that don't match basic armor ala giving you a flat, permanent armor save regardless of whether you are in melee combat or walking or using a 2H weapon. A shield qualifies as "normal" armor under magical interference because they explicitly state it. The only question is whether or not an ironfist is a shield.

"In addition" aka "and" does not have to be a bonus or a positive. It is used in the English language so we don't have run-on sentences. Such as:

An ironfist works exactly like a shield. In addition, if anyone says it's armor, they will die and go to hell.

OR

An ironfist works exactly like a shield. In addition, if the Ogre model ever blocks anything with it, they are instantly slain, because it's made out of radioactive plutonium and it detonates. Dumb Ogres.


Those are totally valid sentences and thoughts.


Again, no one has added one thing that hasn't been brought up copious times in the past to this silly thread. Yes, you are totally free to use what rules you want. IN ADDITION, we are totally free to use what rules we want.

even if a shield isn't armor, the Ironfist is undoubtedly a shield because it functions "exactly like a shield"

part of functioning like a shield is allowing Magic Armor to be taken.

Grey Templar wrote:even if a shield isn't armor, the Ironfist is undoubtedly a shield because it functions "exactly like a shield"

part of functioning like a shield is allowing Magic Armor to be taken.

I agree Ironfist is armor as it's written but functions like a shield doesn't make it a shield just works like a shield. otherwise it'd say is a "shield that also....." You could wet noodle work like a shield doesn't make it a shield justs function in the same way.

DukeRustfield wrote:A shield isn't armor.

p. 502 of the BRB would disagree with you.

p. 43 of the BRB would disagree with you.

I, too, disagree with you.

So, now that we've gotten you to admit that IF shields WERE armor, they would be able to take magic armor - AND now that you can read two pages of the BRB and see that shields ARE armor - does that mean you'll change your mind? Or are you going to recycle some far-reaching anti-armor argument at us yet again?

P. 502 doesn't disagree with me. It separates "magical suits of armor AND shields." Over and over. In fact you can have "only have one suit of armor AND one shield." If they are both armor, you would get either one or the other because they are both armor.

P. 43 of the BRB doesn't disagree with me. The header is:
5. SAVING THROWS <--header
ARMOR SAVES <-sub-header
SHIELDS <-sub-header (this is not subordinate to armor saves, it is a separate item, it is subordinate to Saving Throws)

If you are stating an Ironfist is armor, then they have to give it up if they purchase any magical armor per to top of page 502 as the magical armor would replace their mundane armor (ironfist). I haven't seen anyone state that and that would be rather weird.


An Ironfist isn't armor. This is clear. It MAY be a shield.

You have not gotten me to admit anything except that you can't read what you're referencing.

Now read ALL of p.502 and p.43 and see where the BRB lists shields (in a table on 43 and a list in 502) when defining different pieces of armor. Then get back to me.

Heh.

So okay, here's the quote from the BRB:

"A model can only have one suit of armor and one shield, so if you give a model a magical suit of armor or a magical shield, it replaces any mundane equivalent already worn by the model."

Simple enough, right?

So you're saying that it's armor and not a shield. This is important because of the ^ quote. We need to know what gets replaced when you upgrade to magical. The BRB is really good about calling magical items _______ SHIELD or ARMOR of _________. And/or it says it in the description itself. Ironfist, unfortunately, isn't called a Shield of Ironfist or an Armor of Ironfist. So we have to guess.

You're saying it's armor. It HAS to be one or the other or they cannot under any circumstances get magical equivalents. There is no listing for Ironfists getting magical armor. So it needs to either qualify as armor or shield and we have to know which to see what swaps it out.

So again, you're saying that if a Slaughtermaster bought an Armor of Destiny, heavy armor, he would have to give up his Ironfist, because it is the mundane equivalent that is replaced. Likewise, if he got an Enchanted Shield, he could keep his Ironfist and walk around with 2 parry saves (only 1 of which works, I guess you can choose which equivalent 6+ at time of roll?).


I suppose all this is possible. But I'm more inclined to think an Ironfist is a mount than a suit of armor. He actually rides around on it and that's how he gets the armor save. Again, everyone here (except you) is debating on whether or not an Ironfist is a shield. It's certainly not armor (light armor, heavy armor, chaos armor) or you couldn't possess it and a magical set of armor at the same time but could have a magical shield and an Ironfist. I can't imagine that's really what you mean.

If you mean that it would get lumped under Magical Armor for choices IF it is determined to be a shield...well, sure. But it has to be determined to BE a shield, first. That's the question. Not which category you'd look in. It's certainly not an arcane item.

And.. for every time you can find shields and armor differentiated, I can find a quote that lumps them together.

p. 502 "This section contains enchanted suits of armor - magical breastplates, ensorcelled shields, and so on."

p. 43 on the table, you'll see shield under the "Armor Worn" heading.

Can you stop putting words into my mouth, please? Like the many "references" you have of me calling a shield a suit of armor? That's like calling you a rules guru - it's just ridiculous.

BRB says shields are armor in two different places, but you go ahead and quote all the places they DON'T call it armor. There's what, 530 pages in the BRB or so? Probably at least 527 of them don't call shields armor. So, you've got a lot of quoting to do, yes?

Ah, my bad for misquoting you. Here's your chance to clear things up.

1: If a Slaughtermaster is allowed to get magical armor and he purchases the Armor of Destiny from the BRB, what happens to his purchased Ironfist?
a) he loses it, as it was replaced by the Armor
b) he keeps it, as it was not replaced by the Armor
c) nothing, but he can Fly and gains Killing Blow

2: If a Slaughtermaster is allowed to get magical armor and he purchases an Enchanted Shield from the BRB, what happens to his purchased Ironfist?
a) he loses it, as it was replaced by the Shield
b) he keeps it, as it was not replaced by the Shield
c) nothing, but he can gains 4 spell levels from the Lore of Big Waaagh

Please answer these questions so I won't misquote you again.

You should be able to answer those. It works exactly the same way as a shield (except that it gives it's shield bonus while mounted). That, in an all-inclusive nutshell, is the ironfist.

Repeat after me: works exactly the same way as a shield, except you get the bonus while mounted.

Again: works exactly the same way as a shield, except you get the bonus while mounted.

One more time: works exactly the same way as a shield, except you get the bonus while mounted.

And one more to bring it home, come on, I have faith in you!: works exactly the same way as a shield, except you get the bonus while mounted.

Ahhhh.... that's better. Did we all learn something today? Great. See you next week!

-edit-

Oh, and instead of putting words into my mouth when you "quote" me, how about ACTUALLY quoting me... you know... with the forum's QUOTE function? It's the little button that says QUOTE.

Woops. Despite you editing the post twice, you still didn't answer the questions. I honestly don't know your answer. Because I said what I assumed you believe and you got upset and said I misquoted you and I am putting words in your mouth. So here, let's try this again:


1: If a Slaughtermaster is allowed to get magical armor and he purchases the Armor of Destiny from the BRB, what happens to his purchased Ironfist?
a) he loses it, as it was replaced by the Armor
b) he keeps it, as it was not replaced by the Armor
c) nothing, but he can Fly and gains Killing Blow

2: If a Slaughtermaster is allowed to get magical armor and he purchases an Enchanted Shield from the BRB, what happens to his purchased Ironfist?
a) he loses it, as it was replaced by the Shield
b) he keeps it, as it was not replaced by the Shield
c) nothing, but he can gains 4 spell levels from the Lore of Big Waaagh

Let me answer

DukeRustfield wrote:Woops. Despite you editing the post twice, you still didn't answer the questions. I honestly don't know your answer. Because I said what I assumed you believe and you got upset and said I misquoted you and I am putting words in your mouth. So here, let's try this again:


1: If a Slaughtermaster is allowed to get magical armor and he purchases the Armor of Destiny from the BRB, what happens to his purchased Ironfist?
a) he loses it, as it was replaced by the Armor
b) he keeps it, as it was not replaced by the Armor Since magical armour doesn't replace shields, or things that work exactly like shields, just better
c) nothing, but he can Fly and gains Killing Blow

2: If a Slaughtermaster is allowed to get magical armor and he purchases an Enchanted Shield from the BRB, what happens to his purchased Ironfist?
a) he loses it, as it was replaced by the Shield Since magical shields replace shields, or things that work exactly like shields, just better
b) he keeps it, as it was not replaced by the Shield
c) nothing, but he can gains 4 spell levels from the Lore of Big Waaagh

@DukeBadham
So where in the BRB does it state that Magical Shields replace things that work exactly like shields, but aren't shields?

One of the ways that shields work is that they get replaced by magical shields, so something that works exactly the same, would be replaced

ALSO
why don't all of us (including me) drop this, we are getting nowhere with this. Why don't we drop this, stick with our opinions, and wait for a official ruling.

DukeBadham wrote:One of the ways that shields work is that they get replaced by magical shields, so something that works exactly the same, would be replaced

ALSO
why don't all of us (including me) drop this, we are getting nowhere with this. Why don't we drop this, stick with our opinions, and wait for a official ruling.

Everytime I read the latest on this thread I just want to start chanting, "Fight! Fight! Fight!" school ground style.

Airmaniac wrote:@DukeBadham
So where in the BRB does it state that Magical Shields replace things that work exactly like shields, but aren't shields?

I'll take this one..

If... it works exactly like a shield and one of the ways shields work is that they're replaced by magical shields -> there's your answer.

See? The ironfist works exactly like a shield, except you get the bonus while mounted.

Does it provide a parry save? Yes, IT WORKS EXACTLY LIKE A SHIELD EXCEPT YOU GET ALL SHIELD BONUSES WHILE MOUNTED.

Does it make your armor save one better? Yes, IT WORKS EXACTLY LIKE A SHIELD EXCEPT YOU GET ALL SHIELD BONUSES WHILE MOUNTED.

Does it provide any other bonuses other than shield bonuses on and off a mount? No, IT WORKS EXACTLY LIKE A SHIELD EXCEPT YOU GET ALL SHIELD BONUSES WHILE MOUNTED.

Ta-Daaaaaa!

Unfortunately, Warboss fugnutz, to some, Works Exactly like a Shield and Is Normal Armor don't coincide. And that's what six pages of this argument are about.

It really doesn't matter weather the IF is armor or a shield.

both results will allow the taking of magic armor.

Creon wrote:Unfortunately, Warboss fugnutz, to some, Works Exactly like a Shield and Is Normal Armor don't coincide. And that's what six pages of this argument are about.

Hit it on the head^^^^^^^^^^

I think part of the confusion may arise from there being a difference between the word armor and armor.

armor can mean any item of wargear that increases your armor saves: this includes Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Shields, Chaos Armor, Gromril Plate, Helms, Codpieces of Doom...

armor references pieces of the above wargear that has the word armor in its name, so Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Chaos Armor, Full Plate, Gromril Plate.


GW seems to use the word in 2 different instances.

Yep just like if you had a Sword of Parrying that worked exactly like a shield it would be a shield/ armor too! Its awsome how function makes an Item something it's not. I get your logic. ... but yes an Ironfist is ARMOR a Gauntlet to be exact < thou I hope it gets ruled as just wargear that's not armor cause its lame as hell to put a butcher in armor> Blue "Ogre Player"