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blood reaper wrote:Know what I think of Grey Knights?

They are just fine in most rule terms, except somethings.

Its just the models and the fluff that I dislike, its a mess and should have never been given to Mat Ward/

2 things.

1) The old metal models are actually some of the coolest GW has ever produced, and the new plastics are even better.

2) Fluff? Quite abit was actually around since long before Mat Ward got his hands on it, he just brought it into the light when it would probably have been the prudent thing to let it lie in the dark recesses of 40k back history where it belonged. Bloodtide, Jokearo, GKs purging entire populations... It all existed before now, he just turned the spotlight on it.

I hate the necron bandwagon!!!! Oh wait...thats next month's topic.

Hückleberry wrote:I hate the necron bandwagon!!!! Oh wait...thats next month's topic.

Why wait

lets get em away from hating on my shiny marines.

Grey Templar wrote:

blood reaper wrote:Know what I think of Grey Knights?

They are just fine in most rule terms, except somethings.

Its just the models and the fluff that I dislike, its a mess and should have never been given to Mat Ward/

2 things.

1) The old metal models are actually some of the coolest GW has ever produced, and the new plastics are even better.

2) Fluff? Quite abit was actually around since long before Mat Ward got his hands on it, he just brought it into the light when it would probably have been the prudent thing to let it lie in the dark recesses of 40k back history where it belonged. Bloodtide, Jokearo, GKs purging entire populations... It all existed before now, he just turned the spotlight on it.

Do you want to know what else I dislike?

Threads like these, they do nothing but enforce the image of every forum member hating Grey Knights.

Personally I can sympathise with the OP.

The foundations the Grey Knights (in terms of rules and fluff) being a small elite force is not too bad and their previous codex was actually pretty good. I think it’s just the current codex does a poor job of interpreting the Grey Knights (in terms of rules and fluff).

I’m going to say that using the book doesn’t necessarily make you a bandwaggoner. I’d say someone using SW/BA miniatures in a GK list or fielding a MSU Coteaz chimera/ Crowe razorback spam list could be classed as a bandwagoner.

I’m also recommending the OP fields a “counts as” army rather than a full blown GK army. They don’t have to be “mind bullets” or “mind cannons” if you don’t want them to be, nor do you have to assemble the GK miniatures straight out of the box. I recommend filing/greenstuffing away the GK regalia/symbols as well as kitbashing to making the miniatures “your own”. I personally recommend getting some pre heresy terminator shoulder pads to add some extra character to your miniatures.

I can't stand the new codex I saw nothing wrong with daemonhunters and play that one when ever I can but the new coded is just complete Crap on the overpowered scale.

Personally I can sympathise with the OP.

The foundations the Grey Knights (in terms of rules and fluff) being a small elite force is not too bad and their previous codex was actually pretty good. I think it’s just the current codex does a poor job of interpreting the Grey Knights (in terms of rules and fluff).

I’m going to say that using the book doesn’t necessarily make you a bandwaggoner. I’d say someone using SW/BA miniatures in a GK list or fielding a MSU Coteaz chimera/ Crowe razorback spam list is probably a stronger case for a bandwaggoner.

I’m also recommending the OP fields a “counts as” army rather than a full blown GK army. They don’t have to be “mind bullets” or “mind cannons” if you don’t want them to be, nor do you have to assemble the GK miniatures straight out of the box. I recommend filing/greenstuffing away the GK regalia/symbols as well as kitbashing to making the miniatures “your own”. I personally recommend getting some pre heresy terminator shoulder pads to add some extra character to your miniatures.

iproxtaco wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

n0t_u wrote:What's the point of this argument anyway? One side says "my opinion is right, your's is wrong", the other mirrors it. Just going in circles in my opinion.

No, I keep saying it's all opinion, and than he says I just say that so I don't have to take criticism or something...read the Draigo thread in the background sub forum...

No that's not what I say. You make your point, and someone disagrees. You then dodge having to actually respond with a coherent statement by saying "that's just your opinion". It's the mark of a man who has nothing back up his beliefs.

Than please, post something here that backs up your beliefs.
I believe I have backed up mine, I have stated that whatever Draigo does, is rebuilt, resurrected or re-grows. Just like what the Grey Knights do as an entire force every day...

He beats Mortarion, a Daemon Primarch. Significant but not unheard of. Much less suited individuals have done similar things, Dante's defeat of Ann'grath the Unbound for example. Except this wasn't an epic battle in which a clearly out-classed character struggles on but eventually succeeds due to their heroism, oh no. Draigo, alone and unaided, smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard. Since he's a Daemon Primarch, this would be composed of the elite of the forces he can raise, Death Guard champions, Nurgle Daemons etc. Draigo ignores this, and easily bi-passes them. He then beats Mortarion to the ground, and takes the time out to engrave his previous commander's name onto his adversaries heart. Yeah that's right, he stops in the middle of some pretty powerful Death Guard and Daemons, and takes a bit of time out to perform intricate heart surgery on an angry Daemon Prince. Mortarion doesn't then get up and fight to the last, no, he 'escapes', he runs away.

I think your forgetting that he's a grey knight.....scratch that....he's the "Supreme Grand Master" of the grey knights, so on top of all the specialized daemon fighting and what nots of a normal grey knight...he's probably the most powerful by far, he is the best of the grey knights, which are the best of the all the other space marine "chapters" as for "performing heart surgery" he more than likely just ripped his chest open with his sword which would take what.....1 and a half seconds? as for "being surrounded by his body guards" he more than likely destroyed them first with cleansing flame.

Then Draigo is trapped in the Warp. He has no food, no water, no way to repair his armour or weapons effectively, yet he prevails. You could argue that the Warp is not a realm bound by the physics of the material universe, normal laws do not apply. Doesn't matter. Draigo shouldn't have been able to survive the transition. The Warp is a place that destroys those exposed to its tides. The Red Corsairs trapped on the outside of the Echo of Damnation in Blood Reaver are killed in moments. Terelportation requires an Astropath to keep those in transit safe, Interceptor packs are noted to be extremely dangerous methods of travel, even for a Grey Knight. His flesh should have been flayed from his bones and his soul taken by the tides in excruciating agony like it happens in all other fluff.

As I said, he's the best of the grey knights, an order formed to fight chaos. So I would assume he could use some "psychic shield" of sorts to block all the nastiness of the warp...Interceptors travel through the warp, though it is very dangerous as you have said, but I would assume Draigo is better than an interceptor.....

Sadly, Draigo perseveres. You think he would die soon after when he starts being confronted by powerful Daemons. Nope. He encounters a Bloodthirster, a pretty strong one at that. Surely this means certain death for him? Draigo's fists think otherwise. Alone, in the Warp, with no sword, he beats a Bloodthirster to death with his own hands, in the realm where Daemons should hold the advantage. To add insult to injury, he takes the Greater Daemon's axe, and somehow purifies it of all Daemonic essence, and again, this is in the Warp, where the very air is permeated with Chaotic Power. Then somehow, he forges himself a new sword.

Draigo wasn't "bare handed" I would assume he's still carying the half of his sword that he used to kill the daemon that draged him into the warp in the first place, not to mention cleansing flame is a b tch to daemons, as for actually forging the new sword....I have no clue how he did it, so I have nothing to say to that....

Then he walks through the Warp, killing uncounted other Daemons, and burns down Nurgle's garden. Wow. He literally set fire to almost the entirety of Nurgle's domain like some slowed arsonist. He's not done. After that he goes and kills Slannesh's chosen Daemonettes and cuts them up into little pieces. Taking a detour from his rampage, he goes to have a look round the Inevitable City, see if he can pick up a snowglobe or t-shirt to bring back to the boys, but instead decides to destroy this city, and subsequently kill the ruling Lord of Change by burying it in the rubble. Then he walks away like nothing even happened. Oh, and he's done thousands more acts like these.

I would like you to refer to my statements of him being the "best of the best of the daemon slaying specialized order of bad asses that are more bad ass than a normal space marine"

Here's the icing on the cake. Not even the Chaos Gods, as in Khorne, can do anything about him. He walks around keying their cars and kicking over their bins and they can't do a thing about it because he's immune to old grandpa Nurgle's protests that he'll call the police or else.

I would assume the gods find Draigo amusing, he runs around killing everything and obliterating everything so much it would make an obliterater jealous, guess what.....Draigo is causing CHAOS in the realm of CHAOS, I think the dark gods find that humorous...besides, their too busy playing the Great Game to really care.......

Here's the cherry. You may say that nothing he does ever means anything, which is true, he destroys the Inevitable City and the stones pile pack up the second he takes his eyes away, but the fact remains that he actually did these things, and has done them countless times.

Read the above comments on being the best of the best of the best and what not...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rampage wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Rampage wrote:Thanks Bombboy, now I understand why.

Can't...tell...if...serious...?

, nah that was serious. OT, Congratulations on being the 9,000th BOLS subscriber by the way .

hahahaha, I was surprised anyone noticed

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He beats Mortarion, a Daemon Primarch. Significant but not unheard of. Much less suited individuals have done similar things, Dante's defeat of Ann'grath the Unbound for example. Except this wasn't an epic battle in which a clearly out-classed character struggles on but eventually succeeds due to their heroism, oh no. Draigo, alone and unaided, smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard. Since he's a Daemon Primarch, this would be composed of the elite of the forces he can raise, Death Guard champions, Nurgle Daemons etc. Draigo ignores this, and easily bi-passes them. He then beats Mortarion to the ground, and takes the time out to engrave his previous commander's name onto his adversaries heart. Yeah that's right, he stops in the middle of some pretty powerful Death Guard and Daemons, and takes a bit of time out to perform intricate heart surgery on an angry Daemon Prince. Mortarion doesn't then get up and fight to the last, no, he 'escapes', he runs away.

I think your forgetting that he's a grey knight.....scratch that....he's the "Supreme Grand Master" of the grey knights, so on top of all the specialized daemon fighting and what nots of a normal grey knight...he's probably the most powerful by far, he is the best of the grey knights, which are the best of the all the other space marine "chapters" as for "performing heart surgery" he more than likely just ripped his chest open with his sword which would take what.....1 and a half seconds? as for "being surrounded by his body guards" he more than likely destroyed them first with cleansing flame.

I think you're forgetting that I acknowledged that his defeat of Mortarion wasn't itself a ridiculous thing. How he did it is unimaginably mary-sue. A lone Grey Knight, who was somehow elected to being the Supreme Grand Master which means the other 8 Grand Masters were present, somehow took on a Daemon Primarch and his elite body guard, failing to enact a kill because this Daemon Primarch ran away. If it had been an epic struggle then I would have no problem, but sitting down to do intricate open heart surgery in the middle of the Death Guard's elite is OTT to the insane. Saying he just killed the bodyguard makes it worse. These Chaos marines, Plague Bearers, possibly even a Greater Daemon or two, were just killed without a second thought.

Then Draigo is trapped in the Warp. He has no food, no water, no way to repair his armour or weapons effectively, yet he prevails. You could argue that the Warp is not a realm bound by the physics of the material universe, normal laws do not apply. Doesn't matter. Draigo shouldn't have been able to survive the transition. The Warp is a place that destroys those exposed to its tides. The Red Corsairs trapped on the outside of the Echo of Damnation in Blood Reaver are killed in moments. Terelportation requires an Astropath to keep those in transit safe, Interceptor packs are noted to be extremely dangerous methods of travel, even for a Grey Knight. His flesh should have been flayed from his bones and his soul taken by the tides in excruciating agony like it happens in all other fluff.

As I said, he's the best of the grey knights, an order formed to fight chaos. So I would assume he could use some "psychic shield" of sorts to block all the nastiness of the warp...Interceptors travel through the warp, though it is very dangerous as you have said, but I would assume Draigo is better than an interceptor.....

He uses a psychic shield? Oh right, now it make perfect sense! I have a feeling you're vastly over-estimating how good he should be. If it's dangerous for even a Terminator Grey Knight to do, even for VERY short periods, then Draigo shouldn't have been able to survive considering he's trapped in the Warp ALL THE TIME.

Sadly, Draigo perseveres. You think he would die soon after when he starts being confronted by powerful Daemons. Nope. He encounters a Bloodthirster, a pretty strong one at that. Surely this means certain death for him? Draigo's fists think otherwise. Alone, in the Warp, with no sword, he beats a Bloodthirster to death with his own hands, in the realm where Daemons should hold the advantage. To add insult to injury, he takes the Greater Daemon's axe, and somehow purifies it of all Daemonic essence, and again, this is in the Warp, where the very air is permeated with Chaotic Power. Then somehow, he forges himself a new sword.

Draigo wasn't "bare handed" I would assume he's still carying the half of his sword that he used to kill the daemon that draged him into the warp in the first place, not to mention cleansing flame is a b tch to daemons, as for actually forging the new sword....I have no clue how he did it, so I have nothing to say to that....

Wow, a broken sword, that's much better. He still went and beat down a Bloodthirster using it. In the Warp. In the Realm of Chaos.

Then he walks through the Warp, killing uncounted other Daemons, and burns down Nurgle's garden. Wow. He literally set fire to almost the entirety of Nurgle's domain like some slowed arsonist. He's not done. After that he goes and kills Slannesh's chosen Daemonettes and cuts them up into little pieces. Taking a detour from his rampage, he goes to have a look round the Inevitable City, see if he can pick up a snowglobe or t-shirt to bring back to the boys, but instead decides to destroy this city, and subsequently kill the ruling Lord of Change by burying it in the rubble. Then he walks away like nothing even happened. Oh, and he's done thousands more acts like these.

I would like you to refer to my statements of him being the "best of the best of the daemon slaying specialized order of bad asses that are more bad ass than a normal space marine"

You're overestimating how good he should be. The Supreme Grand Master goes from being killed a Daemon Primarch, to being able to run around the Warp immune the will of the Chaos Gods.

Here's the icing on the cake. Not even the Chaos Gods, as in Khorne, can do anything about him. He walks around keying their cars and kicking over their bins and they can't do a thing about it because he's immune to old grandpa Nurgle's protests that he'll call the police or else.

I would assume the gods find Draigo amusing, he runs around killing everything and obliterating everything so much it would make an obliterater jealous, guess what.....Draigo is causing CHAOS in the realm of CHAOS, I think the dark gods find that humorous...besides, their too busy playing the Great Game to really care.......

Except that's not what it says in the passage. They cannot do anything about him, end of story.

Here's the cherry. You may say that nothing he does ever means anything, which is true, he destroys the Inevitable City and the stones pile pack up the second he takes his eyes away, but the fact remains that he actually did these things, and has done them countless times.

Read the above comments on being the best of the best of the best and what not...

Read previous comments on how you're overestimating how good he should be. No other character in 40k aside from Horus and the Emperor have done anything close to what Draigo can do.

Man... I want to enter this debate so badly, but I'd feel like a douche for doing it.

On an on topic note, I kinda get where Seaward is coming from. As bad as the fluff is, the models are awesome IMO and the army looks fun to play, so I can't help but kind of want to play them too.

Hückleberry wrote:I hate the necron bandwagon!!!! Oh wait...thats next month's topic.

Xenos bandwagons are never anywhere near as bad as PA bandwagons - part of the reason that Space Marines bandwagon so well is the interchangeability of the models. The Necrons will have a few new fans, but it won't be anything like the usual BA/SW/GK release response.

That's what you say now, but when the C'tan are suddenly able to stroll through the Webway or something it'll be a different story...

Durza wrote:That's what you say now, but when the C'tan are suddenly able to stroll through the Webway or something it'll be a different story...

Except the C'tan have been retcon as being overthrown by the necrons and increadibly weaker. I doubt it's be nearly as bad, but I won't hold my breath either way.

Seaward wrote:

Hückleberry wrote:I hate the necron bandwagon!!!! Oh wait...thats next month's topic.

Xenos bandwagons are never anywhere near as bad as PA bandwagons - part of the reason that Space Marines bandwagon so well is the interchangeability of the models. The Necrons will have a few new fans, but it won't be anything like the usual BA/SW/GK release response.

I’ll have to agree with the above statement.

The inter changeability of MEQ miniatures and as well their popularity further encourages MEQ bandwagonning over xenos forces.

The xenos fanbase in general is smaller in numbers than and not as fanatical as the MEQ fanbase anyway. Even if the new Necron codex that is coming out was written by Matt Ward, I don’t see too much fuss being raised about it (apart from cheesy Stormlord lists).

I love this thread. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Maybe we can ask yakface to start a whole new forum for hate threads, that way everyone who hates X army will have somewhere they can go to post. Just saying.

iproxtaco wrote:
I think you're forgetting that I acknowledged that his defeat of Mortarion wasn't itself a ridiculous thing. How he did it is unimaginably mary-sue. A lone Grey Knight, who was somehow elected to being the Supreme Grand Master which means the other 8 Grand Masters were present, somehow took on a Daemon Primarch and his elite body guard, failing to enact a kill because this Daemon Primarch ran away. If it had been an epic struggle then I would have no problem, but sitting down to do intricate open heart surgery in the middle of the Death Guard's elite is OTT to the insane. Saying he just killed the bodyguard makes it worse. These Chaos marines, Plague Bearers, possibly even a Greater Daemon or two, were just killed without a second thought.

Ran away as in retreated to the Warp, from where he couldn't return to realspace for a loooong time. That's as good as you're going to get with Daemons.

I love Grey Knights. My Tyranids have gone through a renaissance since they came out. I'll take Psyflemen over Long Fangs, psycannons over meltaguns, and Strike Squads over Grey Hunters any day of the week. I actually feel like they're the most balanced army that's come out in a while, and I bet there are some Tyranid and Eldar players out there who agree with me.

I only dislike the Dreadknight and Crowe models along with techno monkeys, I liked the idea of the old GK fluff. Valiant warriors destined to die but still fighting, even when normal Space Marines could have broken. I don't see that anymore, and I loved the old GK metals despite the price tags and thought they were the coolest Imperial Models in the line.

methinks the "i hate X army" topics really stem from a lack of ability to combat said army with your army of choice. too many curb stomps by GK players? well... all i can say is learn to fight them. EVERY army is beatable by pretty much any other army. yea, handycaps exist and in some cases are more pronounced then others, but it dosent make it unbeatable. and certianly not a reason to be jumping on the hate wagon.

now that said i plyaed GK when they first arrived, and it was my first choice for marines and my 3rd army. (after DE and 'crons) and while im not a big fan of the fluff... or ward for that matter, it dosent change the fact i like the models, and i think the army plays fairly well. and every "trick" is beatable. draigowing, purfier spam, DK etc. all has weakness and can be brought down.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I think you're forgetting that I acknowledged that his defeat of Mortarion wasn't itself a ridiculous thing. How he did it is unimaginably mary-sue. A lone Grey Knight, who was somehow elected to being the Supreme Grand Master which means the other 8 Grand Masters were present, somehow took on a Daemon Primarch and his elite body guard, failing to enact a kill because this Daemon Primarch ran away. If it had been an epic struggle then I would have no problem, but sitting down to do intricate open heart surgery in the middle of the Death Guard's elite is OTT to the insane. Saying he just killed the bodyguard makes it worse. These Chaos marines, Plague Bearers, possibly even a Greater Daemon or two, were just killed without a second thought.

Ran away as in retreated to the Warp, from where he couldn't return to realspace for a loooong time. That's as good as you're going to get with Daemons.

Mortarion 'escaped' from Draigo, he wasn't even given the dignity of being banished. True though, he couldn;t return for some time after that. Had to call up Fabius Bile to have him reverse Draigo's choppy and quick open heart surgery.

sennacherib wrote:I love this thread. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Maybe we can ask yakface to start a whole new forum for hate threads, that way everyone who hates X army will have somewhere they can go to post. Just saying.

Actually not a bad idea in an effort to isolate the hate.

I always looked at it like Draigo was anchored to the warp and as such gained the cohesiveness that others lack when they go. This is why he keeps returning to the warp and this was part of the demon primarch's plan to torture him till he breaks. Draigo is there because he's the best and even he must some day relent in the fight against chaos.

I don't hate GK. I just dislike them because of the nasty things they do. They're nice bad guys and Draigo is a very good point in favor of my canon in which Malal is still kicking.

Demolisher Cannon approves of mass Terminator armor, and especially Paladins.