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riplikash wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:A freaking hobby knife can go through pewter with minimal effort. I don't understand the complaints here, though I'm fairly handy with green stuff. It's really just a preference thing at the end of the day, and nobody is "right"

Edit: For the record, I love metal. Plastic models almost always seem to have horrible mold lines in my experience and I hate spending all that time cleaning. Resin... ugh. Just no. Tried it, did not like it, will try again at some point but not anytime soon.

Just...no. No a hobby knife cant. Maybe little bits of flash, but you can't carve down a face or a symbol, you certainly can't just cut a figure through the torso.

And metal models have the same mold lines as plastic, plus a lot of flash on top.

While no ones preference is wrong, many of the arguments FOR the preference is wrong. People don't just want to have a preference, they want their preference to be 'right', and they come up with some pretty counter intuitive arguments to prove it, like the fact that since it is harder to work with t is better, or that a hobby knife can go through pewter with 'minimal' effort. That I take issue with.

...I can make a youtube video if you like. Seriously, it's not that hard Hell, a pair of pliers could take one apart.

In my experience, mold lines/flash are much less an issue than on plastic kits. The last several GW kits and figures I bought, the mold lines on the plastic have been atrocious, even to the point where both halves of the model are offset and I've needed replacements. People are okay to disagree, but as an example, the Anima Tactics model line has some amazing metals that need no filing whatsoever.

And my argument isn't wrong, more like objectively provable. Stop taking issue that people having differing views and light up a joint/have a drink/put on some relaxing music/just breathe (your call)

I personally prefer non metal models for fantasy and 40k.

Reasons being:
Have you ever built a hellcannon if so you know how much green stuff goes into that.

Khorne lord on jugger has more pins in him than I have finger (I have not lost any fingers yet).

The models that used to come in metal were really cool looking so converting them to make something even better looking would be a ton of work.

Super glue could leak out of the joints to make a mess.

Reasons I like metal:
If you need to defend yourself all you need is a hellcannon, empire steam tank or old metal giant and a sock and you have protection.

Moving metal models feels cool.

I will not refuse to build metal models but certain things would be nice to have in plastic.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

starsdawn wrote:Well, I believe "old medium" elitism happens every time a new, (usually) better medium is introduced. Like how old time photographers would moan that digital photography is inferior to film, or traditional painters would argue that painting with actual paints trumps digital painting and digital painters are less skilled compared to them. There was also a time when oil painters would argue oil is better than acrylic. There were even writers who would say that typing with a typewriter is so much better than using a program.

My theory is that we humans cling to what we know, and it is a blow to our ego that the skills we earned are now obsolete and we would like to feel that they're still relevant somehow.

That would be a fine theory, except I first started toying with the hobby in 2006 and didn't like plastic as much as metal just from messing around. By the time I got a few resin models I asked for help on how to work with them, looked stuff up, but at the end of the day they were just annoying and I felt like it was going to shatter. I've never had trouble converting metal so I fail to see how it's more or less a given that it's inferior.

In 20 years, will there be more surviving resin or metal models?

My take on the matter:

Metal is not inferior in terms of miniature medium, it has its own strengths. But in terms of converting and customization it is inferior since, let's face it, people would find it harder to do. You can barely change a metal miniature's pose without having greenstuff (something that can easily be done with plastic). Pinning is a pain in the posterior area. That's why people, especially those like me who like to convert stuff heavily, would prefer plastic and resin. It's not the durability that's the issue.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
That would be a fine theory, except I first started toying with the hobby in 2006 and didn't like plastic as much as metal just from messing around. By the time I got a few resin models I asked for help on how to work with them, looked stuff up, but at the end of the day they were just annoying and I felt like it was going to shatter. I've never had trouble converting metal so I fail to see how it's more or less a given that it's inferior.

In 20 years, will there be more surviving resin or metal models?

Your preference is fine, but if you have really never had any trouble converting metal I can only think that you don't do very elaborate conversions. The ease of converting plastic is one thing that really isn't up for debate. Almost every form of conversion is significantly harder when working with metal: drilling, sawing, chopping, shaving. On top of that multi-part plastic kits give you many more pieces for converting and more pose-ability, though the poses are rarely as dynamic and fluid for the same reason that action figures are never as fluid and dynamic as sculptures.

When all is said and done, metal isn't 'inferior', it is just a different material with it's own strengths and weaknesses. Plastic has more strengths then metal, but that doesn't make it better. What matters is how much you VALUE those strengths. If durability and weight are very important to you and ease of converting, pose-ability, ease of painting, extra bits, less chipping, sharper features, easier assembly, and overall more options, then metal is a better choice. And that is perfectly valid, despite the fact I listed more strengths for plastic. Not everyone wants or needs lots of converting and poses, or cares using super thin varnish layers, but they DO care about the feel and durability. 2x100 (two strengths you value greatly) can outnumber 10x2 (ten strengths you don't care that much about).

Again, the problem is people are trying so hard to argue the strengths of plastic aren't actually strengths, and the weaknesses of metal aren't actually weaknesses. Metal is inferior to work with, that is all there is too it. But it is longer lasting and heavier.

As for what there will be more of in 20 years? I could guess metal, obviously it stands up to more abuse. But that doesn't really matter. If you take care of them I imagine both will outlive you.


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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
...I can make a youtube video if you like. Seriously, it's not that hard Hell, a pair of pliers could take one apart.

In my experience, mold lines/flash are much less an issue than on plastic kits. The last several GW kits and figures I bought, the mold lines on the plastic have been atrocious, even to the point where both halves of the model are offset and I've needed replacements. People are okay to disagree, but as an example, the Anima Tactics model line has some amazing metals that need no filing whatsoever.

And my argument isn't wrong, more like objectively provable. Stop taking issue that people having differing views and light up a joint/have a drink/put on some relaxing music/just breathe (your call)

It isn't impossible, obviously, but it is an order of magnitude harder is what I'm saying. Converting metal is just harder, cutting metal is harder, and I would very much be interested in seeing a video of you cutting a marine in half cleanly with a hobby knife in any reasonable amount of time.

As for mold lines I could certainly see both ways, it's more of a personal experience thing. I've certainly had that experience with plastics, but I've had it with metals too. I would argue one isn't really worse than the other, but again, that is a personal experience sort of thing.

As for being mad...that is ever the last resort for people being called out on talking out their rear. I calmly pointed out that you cannot reasonably argue that metal is as easy to work with as plastic. That doesn't make plastic better, but it is the reality of the medium. In none of my posts have I said someone was wrong for choosing metal, or disagreed with their preference.

But people get emotionally attached to their choices and start needing it to be the right choice, so they start inventing reasons it is superior. That I have been attempting to discourage.

I think you're talking objectively about that which is subjective. Plastic does not have more pros than metal as a rule. The number of pros it has is just as subjective as anything else, depending on how much you want to analyze each material (which you're doing heavily for plastic). I've done some fairly elaborate conversions, thanks much. Stop projecting other people's faults onto what I'm saying and generalizing. Because clearly, many people who praise new mediums believe all advancements are automatically good and are simply afraid to question the methods of "the past," those old codgers! It's a given, but they also like to have relations while wearing school girl's knickers

Wish I had some better pictures:


Anyway, I'm done here. Quit implying things are better and generalizing about people.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

riplikash wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:A freaking hobby knife can go through pewter with minimal effort. I don't understand the complaints here, though I'm fairly handy with green stuff. It's really just a preference thing at the end of the day, and nobody is "right"

Edit: For the record, I love metal. Plastic models almost always seem to have horrible mold lines in my experience and I hate spending all that time cleaning. Resin... ugh. Just no. Tried it, did not like it, will try again at some point but not anytime soon.

Just...no. No a hobby knife cant. Maybe little bits of flash, but you can't carve down a face or a symbol, you certainly can't just cut a figure through the torso.

And metal models have the same mold lines as plastic, plus a lot of flash on top.

While no ones preference is wrong, many of the arguments FOR the preference is wrong. People don't just want to have a preference, they want their preference to be 'right', and they come up with some pretty counter intuitive arguments to prove it, like the fact that since it is harder to work with t is better, or that a hobby knife can go through pewter with 'minimal' effort. That I take issue with.

...I can make a youtube video if you like. Seriously, it's not that hard Hell, a pair of pliers could take one apart.

In my experience, mold lines/flash are much less an issue than on plastic kits. The last several GW kits and figures I bought, the mold lines on the plastic have been atrocious, even to the point where both halves of the model are offset and I've needed replacements. People are okay to disagree, but as an example, the Anima Tactics model line has some amazing metals that need no filing whatsoever.

And my argument isn't wrong, more like objectively provable. Stop taking issue that people having differing views and light up a joint/have a drink/put on some relaxing music/just breathe (your call)

Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans on cutting through metal being as easy as cutting through plastic. The compositions of the materials make this an absolute falsehood.

riplikash wrote:

Eilif wrote:I mentioned it briefly before, but it bears making the point that metal sculpts offer a range of pose differentiation that is just not possible in multipart plastic unless you do some serious converting/sculpting.

The sculptor of a metal (or resin) model can take into account the way muscle and fabric flexes and stretches when a torso twists and the way the leg position will change to adjust for the distribution if body weight. On a plastic model, you just twist the torso and that results in none of the anatomical reality that a sculpted model produces. Not so noticible on a space marine, but very noticible on a guardsman.

Plastic has lots of variation within certain parameters, but there are alot of poses such as crouching, hunching, etc that are just better done in metal.

I also have issues with this argument, it just isn't true. Plastic can be formed into almost any shape these days. Many of the kits available don't positions like crouching and such in order to give the buyer more posing options. It is a pragmatic decision, not a limitation of the medium.

I did specify "multipart plastic" at the beginning for a reason. That is because in order to make "multipart-multipose plastic kits" the designers have to resort to more generic poses and eschew the more subtle and anatomically correct poses that only come when the model is sculpted as a single concept design.

Of course with current technology plastics can have nearly the same sculpts as metal. In light of the market, however that is a moot point. They won't be, because if they were molded completely into uniquely sculpted poses, you'd lose the multipart convertability which is the main reason that people are willing to pay more than the price of a metal model for GW plastic kits. Folks would look at a monopose plastic mini (no matter how well sculpted) and say "why didn't they just make it in metal or resin". No one wants monopose plastic models (at least not at GW prices) which is why you nearly only see them in starter sets and from mantic.

This is why if, in todays market, you want the kind of sculpts that I was describing you have to buy metal or resin figs.

heartserenade wrote:
Metal is not inferior in terms of miniature medium, it has its own strengths. But in terms of converting and customization it is inferior since, let's face it, people would find it harder to do.

This is a very fair statement. I'm really not holding up Metal as the overall superior product, just that it does have a few very recommendable qualities.

For me it comes down to what I am looking for for a given project. Do I want the unique poses, style and resaleability of metal, or the ease of posability, assembly and convertability of plastic. The answer may be completely different depending on the project at hand.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I think you're talking objectively about that which is subjective.

He was talking about how easier it is to convert plastic over metal. That's not subjective. What's also not subjective is that plastic is easier to cut than metal. If you're not getting that, well, I can make jabs about your reading comprehension skills (oh look, he supports what you said that metal has its strengths and having a subjective preference is okay!) but it doesn't get us far now, does it?

I've done some fairly elaborate conversions, thanks much.

You do know that people can't judge how elaborate your conversion is with a) a crappy photo and b) no photo of the original uncoverted model. Can't even tell if that's supposed to be a dragon or a duck or a dragonduck.

Stop projecting other people's faults onto what I'm saying and generalizing. Because clearly, many people who praise new mediums believe all advancements are automatically good and are simply afraid to question the methods of "the past," those old codgers! It's a given, but they also like to have relations while wearing school girl's knickers

Ooooh, so stop generalizing people because only you can generalize people? Pot calling the kettle metal?



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Lord Skulk wrote:

Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans on cutting through metal being as easy as cutting through plastic. The compositions of the materials make this an absolute falsehood.

He's using power cutters. They're like power weapons, only cutters.

I converted a Mephiston recently and have to say that was a nightmare as he's cast in one piece, body, cloak, shoulderpads and head.

This is him when done.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/howardtreesong/Inquisitor02.jpg

I had to saw through the shoulderpads and right through the stuff on his head... that was a lot of work for something I'm only moderately happy with (he didn't make it to my gallery anyway).

Generally though, I find metal miniatures just take a bit more time. The longest job is cleaning up mould lines and I find that because plastic kits are usually more multi-part, you have a lot more lines to clean up, so the time saving isn't really there even with the softer material.

Breotan wrote:
- The lightweight "boardgame token" feel to plastic models can easily be remedied by gluing a nickle in the base. This also has the advantage of making the model bottom heavy so it stays on slopes better.

And simultaneously doubles the resale value.



At least with a metal model, you can believe they have cast it from some obscure and valuable precious metal to justify the price you paid for it.

Not so with Finecast. It's lighter than plastic, and warps in Aussie springtime sunlight.

For large models make mine plastic. For Gods's sake, please. I hate pinning with a passion I usually reserve for coffee and employees of the Civil Service. Chunky, heavy, fall to bits at the drop of a hat. The recent Dark Elf Black Dragon is the way forwards in terms of large scale models all right.

For infantry models though, I must say I personally prefer metal. Of course, if you're a conversion nut, plastic is the clear choice here, but as a painter, I really do prefer the clean lines and poses that come in a good metal model.

A problem I have with many of the plastic kits is that you put the pose any way you want, this can too often be an unrealistic or slightly quirky pose. Metal models are by nature going to be set in certain pose, and I like those beautifully crafted models that were sculpted in *this* particular pose by the sculptor, and then you as a painter pick up the torch and finish the model off, they often have much more character in the deliberate stance of the model, compared to the almost randomly generated pose you get with plastic.

Plastic also deforms rather quickly depending on the glue you use, while metal is far less malleable.

One last thing is the feel in your hand. Plastic models are nice and light and don't break into bits and chip when you drop them, which is why they make good line troops. Metal models always, to me, seem more dependable, there is something comfortable in the weight of a 28mm Character figure to see you through a game.

Different rules for different things I suppose.

I like my HQ:s metal. Normal troopers and vehicles should be kept plastic IMHO.

I dislike metal models. They are cumbersome, hard to covert, and they're made with some lead.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I think you're talking objectively about that which is subjective. Plastic does not have more pros than metal as a rule. The number of pros it has is just as subjective as anything else, depending on how much you want to analyze each material (which you're doing heavily for plastic). I've done some fairly elaborate conversions, thanks much. Stop projecting other people's faults onto what I'm saying and generalizing. Because clearly, many people who praise new mediums believe all advancements are automatically good and are simply afraid to question the methods of "the past," those old codgers! It's a given, but they also like to have relations while wearing school girl's knickers

Really what I am describing is not subjective at all. It is objectively easier to assemble, cut, chop, reshape, repose, and the paint requires less protection, allowing for a greater variety of colors to show through. Those are some of the objective benefits of plastic.

You are misunderstanding the point of the number of pro's as well. I'm saying that what matters is what, subjectively, is more important to you. I think you are going to have a hard time listing as many pros for metal as plastic, but what I'm saying is that doesn't matter. That doesn't make plastic better. What matters is what you value more, sculptability and paintability, or weight and durability.

In regards to your final statement, again, I never said plastic was superior. I just answered the question, why do so many people prefer plastics, and called people out (like you) for making fallacious arguments like "metal is easy to cut with a hobby knife" (bull crap), and "metal is better because it is harder to work with.

I do agree with the poster above who noted that, due to market influences, plastic is always going to come in multi-part kits and therefore if you want dynamic, organic poses you need to go for metal or resin, not due to any limitations in plastic, but due to market influences.

On a non-confrontational note, I am fairly certain you can come up with more legitimate pro's for plastic than metal, but I would be very interested in someones further analyses. If there are additional benefits to using metal I would very much like to hear them.

starsdawn wrote:
He was talking about how easier it is to convert plastic over metal. That's not subjective. What's also not subjective is that plastic is easier to cut than metal. If you're not getting that, well, I can make jabs about your reading comprehension skills (oh look, he supports what you said that metal has its strengths and having a subjective preference is okay!) but it doesn't get us far now, does it?

I never argued that metal was as easy to cut as plastic, only that his pro/con list was rigged by bias and made to sound as though no other possibility existed.

Ooooh, so stop generalizing people because only you can generalize people? Pot calling the kettle metal?

It's called sarcasm. <insert reading comprehension jab, or recommend you to ever visit OT where you'll learn quickly Cannerus is to be taken with a grain of salt when referring to school girl's knickers> I was doing it to prove a point.

Lord Skulk wrote:

Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans on cutting through metal being as easy as cutting through plastic. The compositions of the materials make this an absolute falsehood.

Answered above.

Now both of you quit being wrong and worship me already

Edit: That's more sarcasm if you didn't catch. Also, FWIW, I just sliced a metal marine in half with a hobby knife 2 seconds ago so I can transplant a different metal chest piece in it

BlapBlapBlap wrote:I dislike metal models. They are cumbersome, hard to covert, and they're made with some lead.

Not recently. And if you don't like lead don't eat them.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Anyway, I'm done here.

Apparently not.

It's called sarcasm. <insert reading comprehension jab, or recommend you to ever visit OT where you'll learn quickly Cannerus is to be taken with a grain of salt when referring to school girl's knickers> I was doing it to prove a point.

It's called the internet. You know, where tone of voice is not really part of the medium? Really, NOW I can call you a po0, or a kettle, or some other kitchen appliance (oven, maybe?). Don't do reading comprehension job when you need to comprehend better yourself, compadre.

Prove a point of what? That you know how to make sarcastic remarks? How does it support your point? Do you do it just to show how clever you are (clearly undermined by the fact you haven't comprehended the posts quite well)?

Now both of you quit being wrong and worship me already

So if you were being sarcastic does that mean we're *gasp* actually right?

Edit: That's more sarcasm if you didn't catch. Also, FWIW, I just sliced a metal marine in half with a hobby knife 2 seconds ago so I can transplant a different metal chest piece in it

Pics or it didn't happen.

starsdawn wrote:Pics or it didn't happen.

I have them up on my Fetlife account.

Wait, that's not what you meant?

...it's probably best to put me on ignore now

I think you are having some communications problems then.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

I never argued that metal was as easy to cut as plastic, only that his pro/con list was rigged by bias and made to sound as though no other possibility existed.

You argued that cutting metal, and the other things I listed, were subjective, so you were at least trying to say it is possible that it is as easy to cut metal as plastic. The fact that you brought up how easy it is to cut metal with a hobby knife further re-enforced the idea that you were trying to argue it is just as easy to mod metal as plastic. You keep saying that such things are subjective, hence why everyone thinks you are trying to say it is just as easy to cut/convert metal. If you don't feel this way...then there really is no reason to bring up the points you are bringing up.

And again, I don't think you are reading the whole post. How is the pro/con list rigged? I really would like to hear if there are more pro's to metal beyond weight and durabilty so I can make an informed choice. And I've said time and again that just because you can list more pro's for one side doesn't make it better, what matters are what qualities are important to YOU.

It's called sarcasm. <insert reading comprehension jab, or recommend you to ever visit OT where you'll learn quickly Cannerus is to be taken with a grain of salt when referring to school girl's knickers> I was doing it to prove a point.

I don't think anyone has any idea what point you were trying to prove here...or even what the school girl's knickers sentence was supposed to mean. You should probably just avoid sarcasm in debates like this unless you are going to append them with something like </sarcasm>.

Edit: That's more sarcasm if you didn't catch. Also, FWIW, I just sliced a metal marine in half with a hobby knife 2 seconds ago so I can transplant a different metal chest piece in it

Um, wow. I would be very interested in how you did this. I have been working with metal figs for 15 years and typically have to use a good strong hobby saw or dremel cutting tool to get a clean cut through a thick section of pewter. Pushing through with a hobby knife typically takes a long friggin time and deforms the edges, if it can be done at all. When most people talk about a hobby knife they are talking about something like an exacto knife. Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? Because I'm having a hard time accepting that statement as you presented it, as I'm sure are most people who read it.

Who cares about your sexual preferences. They're irrelevant. Stop beating around the non-innuendo-related bush.

Just put proof that you did cut a pewter marine in half using a hobby knife.

But then again it makes sense if your hobby knife is like this:

The best I have is a webcam and I have nothing to prove here. If you're actually interested how I did it, just make some initial hard cuts how you want it to separate, then start rocking it back and forth. Takes ~2 minutes.

Claims are supported by proof. Your clam is not supported by any kind of proof whatsoever, so unless you're an Evangelion (highly unlikely) we have reason to doubt your claim.

It's like saying "yeah strangers on the internet you should believe me I did something that is highly improbable. I have nothing to prove to you but you guys, it's totally true!" Doesn't really fly.

Huh, I've cut through metal minis rather nicely with a hobby knife too, it isn't really that hard. Plastic is easier, true. But metal feels nicer and it's sturdy and smooth and... <3 Metal.

Seriously, if I really want to convert a miniature, it being metal is unlikely to stop me. Usually metal minis are already too gorgeous to cut up though...

Incidentally, when he says he has nothing to prove, he probably means: ' I don't really care whether you believe me or not', rather than... whatever you said.

chromedog wrote:
The satisfaction derived from doing something is proportional to the amount of time and effort put into it. A plastic conversion is easy and yields minor satisfaction.
A metal conversion, because it takes more effort, will yield vastly more satisfaction, simply because.

You are stating your point of view and not making an empirical statement. I take a great deal of pleasure out of my "easy" plastic conversions and I am highly satisfied with my results. That fact that I did not have to use a bench vice, a Dremel tool, 2 part epoxy, a pin vice, and brass rod over a period of hours doesn't seem to phase me in the slightest.

I like metal HQs and plastic troops. I do not care for finecast.. Not good luck with them and bubbles/surface issues.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:I dislike metal models. They are cumbersome, hard to covert, and they're made with some lead.

Not GW models - they've been lead free for ages.

There are still some companies that do use lead-alloys, but they are generally for the historicals crowd where I daresy you will rarely find a 12 year old.
(older players generally speaking, are not at risk of lead poisoning from their figures any more than they are from their houses - where the paint and soldered plumbing joints all contained lead).


@Skalk: Naturally. ALL points of view are subjective. There is no 'right' point of view about it.

Then again, as I have stated, once you have the ability and the tools, converting metal is no more onerous than converting plastic.

The lead issue is a bit more complex than that.

Lead in figures is of very little danger. Even when cut, it's not an issue unless ingested, and even then, it's really fine particles that are the issue.

Reaper has begun to use lead in it's P-63 line again as it is cheaper and easier to recreate very fine details in lead based alloys.

As for housing. Lead paint is found in older houses regardless of who lives there and old people are as exposed to lead as children. The issue with children is that they are developmentally at a stage where they are more suceptible to lead than adults, and they are more likely to eat paint chips, a major source of lead poisoning.

All that said, I'd prefer if companies used lead based alloys to the pewter they use now. Lead based are be cheaper, much easier to convert (cutting a lead figure is remarkably easier than a pewter fig), and by following a few simple rules are not statistically more dangerous than pewter.

The lead doesn't matter unless you are using like rogue trader era models, so let's take the lead argument out of this right now. None of the major tabletop companies have used lead in more than 20 years and anyone who begins again is VERY up front about it, so you can't exactly miss it.