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ShumaGorath wrote:

Revarien wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote: *snippet from previous post*

Personally, even as a sister of battle player, I think she is underpointed. I think she should be in the 185 range, personally... But that is if we look at a single model in the vacuum of model vs. point cost.

Now if you toss her in with the rest of my army and compare it to the horrible horrible train wreck my SoB codex is, I think we're allowed 1 item to ATTEMPT to make up for the stupidity that was thrust upon us... as a whole, this codex sucks, but the one bright gleaming hope it has, is named St. Celestine, and my opponents will at least respect HER if they can't respect my Sisters of Battle.

I don't think one awful design decision really makes up for the other, especially considering how much of the HQ slot is invalidated by celestines existence.

Does this mean I shouldn't field my Canoness?

In your words Shummy, what exactly is wrong with Celestine?

I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm actually asking.

H.B.M.C. wrote:In your words Shummy, what exactly is wrong with Celestine?

I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm actually asking.

She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

ShumaGorath wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:In your words Shummy, what exactly is wrong with Celestine?

I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm actually asking.

She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

H.B.M.C. was asking your opinion, so don't mince words. Tell us how you really feel.

I have played extensively with the sisters WD dex including a couple of tourneys at 1.75k.

My experience is that Celestine tends to dominate games at 1k or so, (especially C&C where she is the best objective-contestor you could concieve) but her influence drops off quite a bit at higher points levels with so many S6+ shots and power claw/fists flying around. Also, she doesn't like walkers or vehicles

ShumaGorath wrote:She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

That teaches me nothing. Please be specific.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

That teaches me nothing. Please be specific.

Although I disagree with ShumaGorath's central premise, Celestine is good for the following reasons:
- High Mobility
- Heavy Flamer
- 4+ Wound Power weapon with WS7 I7 and 6 attacks on the charge
- 2+/4++
- Never dies.

Basically, you send her towards your opponent and either they 'waste' fire on her or they don't. Either way, she will get to them and will tie up or kill one or more units.

She is extremely vulnerable to high strength shooting and powerfists and has a tendency to yoyo a lot, but generally is a great distraction / disruption unit.

pretre wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

That teaches me nothing. Please be specific.

Although I disagree with ShumaGorath's central premise, Celestine is good for the following reasons:
- High Mobility
- Heavy Flamer
- 4+ Wound Power weapon with WS7 I7 and 6 attacks on the charge
- 2+/4++
- Never dies.

Basically, you send her towards your opponent and either they 'waste' fire on her or they don't. Either way, she will get to them and will tie up or kill one or more units.

She is extremely vulnerable to high strength shooting and powerfists and has a tendency to yoyo a lot, but generally is a great distraction / disruption unit.

How is a unit that can't die "vulnerable" to something? Being killed just allows her to charge again.

ShumaGorath wrote:How is a unit that can't die "vulnerable" to something? Being killed just allows her to charge again.

She can die. She just doesn't always stay down.

You are reminding me of the OMG MEPHISTON threads right now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

That teaches me nothing. Please be specific.

She is highly mobile. Can not reasonably be tarpitted due to her tendency to die and ressurect outside of combat. She has six power weapon attacks on the charge that ignore toughness. She is a 2+/4+ IC with ws and I7. She has a heavy flamer. That stat-line in any other book would be worth ~190 points (230+ in the DE book). The fact that she can't actually be killed is icing, her raw stats already put her solidly into the wildly under costed category. A marine captain with nothing but a power weapon is 115. A marine captain with a power weapon, artificer armor, a jump pack and a theoretical heavy flamer would be about 185. He has fewer attacks, WS, and I. His toughness is one higher but his weapon is worse.

That means that in comparative costing, her ability to not die is worth at minimum NEGATIVE SIXTY POINTS. Compare her to any other IC in the games last three additions, nothing even comes close for the cost. She has beaten the vendetta for bs costing pretty solidly, she's probably beating the manticore as well.


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pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:How is a unit that can't die "vulnerable" to something? Being killed just allows her to charge again.

She can die. She just doesn't always stay down.

You are reminding me of the OMG MEPHISTON threads right now.

Except mephiston doesn't have an invulnerable, doesn't get back up, has a similar statline, is reliant on psychic powers, and is more than twice the cost. You're reminding me of the people that wanted 35 point Penitent engines.

ShumaGorath wrote:That means that in comparative costing, her ability to not die is worth at minimum NEGATIVE SIXTY POINTS. Compare her to any other IC in the games last three additions, nothing even comes close for the cost. She has beaten the vendetta for bs costing pretty solidly, she's probably beating the manticore as well.

Comparative costing between codexes has been shown not to work right again and again. Books are generally costed against themselves and not other books.

ShumaGorath wrote:Except mephiston doesn't have an invulnerable, doesn't get back up, has a similar statline, is reliant on psychic powers, and is more than twice the cost. You're reminding me of the people that wanted 35 point Penitent engines.

It was a joke on the folks who freaked out about how OMG OP Meph was. Geeze. You're not helping your case any. lol

Comparative costing between codexes has been shown not to work right again and again. Books are generally costed against themselves and not other books.

Bad game design does not excuse more bad game design. She is wildly undercosted in the codex that she's in. There is no reason at all to take a cannoness in that book. None. They are comparatively worthless next to the cheaper demigodess with wings. She is game breaking at 1250 or lower and plainly overpowered above that. If you're going to try to whine to me that the rest of the sisters book is dramatically overcosted to make up for it then you're going to have to point out how. As it is she's just undercosted in a book that is at best poorly written and full of bad game design. Being at the bottom of the barrel doesn't make her place smell nicer.

It was a joke on the folks who freaked out about how OMG OP Meph was. Geeze. You're not helping your case any.

Except unlike mephiston for BAs Celestine actually DOES seemingly get into every sisters army that exists because she actually is plainly and dramatically undercosted.

ShumaGorath wrote:hyperbole.

She is undercosted. Sure. Most undercosted most powerful model in the game. No.

I'm not about to change your mind though.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:hyperbole.

She is undercosted. Sure. Most undercosted most powerful model in the game. No.

I'm not about to change your mind though.

Then what, praytell, is the most undercosted model in the game if not her?

Shuma if you want to compare costs lets look at the Space Marine command sqaud and compare it to the Sororitas Command Sqaud. They are the same price for less attacks overall, less toughness, less initiative, some models have less WS, and they have a worse wargear selection along with an ability that might not work. The Preacher is 5 points less than a Sanguinary Priest and he has -2 WS, -1 BS, -1 S, -1 T, -1 Ld, a worse save, worse wargear, and significantly less potent ability since his only works if the unit he is with assaults. My point being is the codex needs something like Celestine to compete with other codices. Point costs cannot be compared across codices even though they should be. POint costs are utterly irrelevant to the utility of the unit obviously.

honestly i was reading through this and i had to comment. hope it doesn't come out too confusing. i have a tendency to rant

yes there are certain things gift of chaos, zogwart etc. that are perhaps a bit too good for the cost. but take a look at both of them. gift of chaos is either on a daemon prince and a complete waste where warptime is way better, or he is on a sorcerer and the sorcerer can be killed. zogwart can just be shot in the face with a lascannon and he is gone, sure a bit of luck would be required but still he can be killed and the threat can be removed.

with celestine it is just not possible. yes i do concede that Celestine is not going to break the game by herself, but look at what you are getting. a character the CANT DIE!!!

you get a god that will yes only kill a few things, but effectively allows an army to NEVER GET TABLED. the whole thing with you can always win if you table your opponent, no longer applies to them.

with that in mind remember that she also doesn't count as a kill point if she dies *if i remember correctly* i personally have played numerous games where she was all that was left. because of her the game went on for about 2 hours.


i would also like to point out that for some codex's *chaos space marines for example* *cough* *cough* there is really no way to tarpit her, cause you need every unit and you simply can not tarpit her effectivly. and yes i understand that is understandable and that you can still work around her but really giving an army a model that CANT DIE! how is that not broken?

honestly i find grey knights more fair as they have weaknesses and are actually pretty well priced for what you are getting.

and i can personally say that i actually enjoy playing against GK while SoB well... yeah... they have celestine a character that never DIES!!!




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just a little thing as i was looking through celestine's rules

the whole place her within one inch of were she "died"

what if it is not possible to do that?

what if there is a giant mob of orks on top of her... or something similar?

just something to add to my thoughts

Lol. Was that satire?

She only comes back on a 4+. if there are no models on the table, it's still a tabling.

I just want to chip in say that I am so enjoying the talk about how sob has the cheesiest unit in they game and people hate playing against sob because of their super power goddess who destroys EVERYTHING.

I am happy about this because lets face it when ever since 2ed have you herd other people being so scared of our army? I mean most people haven't played a sob army in their entire lives.

We're like the unknown army. Nobodies seen us, played against us and the few that do aren't really super impressed.

I hope that every player will know and fear us and we finally get some respect!!!

We are the Adepta Sororitas and we have come to cleanse the witch, the mutant and the Heretic!!!!! NONE SHALL BE SPARED THE HOLY CLEANSING OF FLAMES!!!!!!.

I'm sorry Pretre, my pteranadonic friend, but Shummy's got you here:

ShumaGorath wrote:Bad game design does not excuse more bad game design.

The fact that the books are designed in a vacuum is bad game design, as Shummy says. Celestine might have been designed without comparisons to other HQ's, but that's not a point in her favour. Now I can live with Celestine being Queen Bitch of the Universe as long as she is costed correctly. It seems, based upon what Shummy has said, that she is not.

How does the 'never die' part work exactly?

MrFlutterPie wrote:I just want to chip in say that I am so enjoying the talk about how sob has the cheesiest unit in they game and people hate playing against sob because of their super power goddess who destroys EVERYTHING.

I am happy about this because lets face it when ever since 2ed have you herd other people being so scared of our army? I mean most people haven't played a sob army in their entire lives.

We're like the unknown army. Nobodies seen us, played against us and the few that do aren't really super impressed.

I hope that every player will know and fear us and we finally get some respect!!!

We are the Adepta Sororitas and we have come to cleanse the witch, the mutant and the Heretic!!!!! NONE SHALL BE SPARED THE HOLY CLEANSING OF FLAMES!!!!!!.

Um... exalted >.>


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H.B.M.C. wrote:How does the 'never die' part work exactly?

place a token on the board where she left the table: she comes in within 1" of the token, or as close as possible, on a 4+ the next turn... if you roll less than 4+, then you can try on subsequent turns, till she does, or the game ends. Opponent is awarded KP/VPs if she is off the board when the game ends.

Oh right. I thought it was just roll, and if you don't get her she's actually dead. So you just keep trying? Youch... that's... not good.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh right. I thought it was just roll, and if you don't get her she's actually dead. So you just keep trying? Youch... that's... not good.

Personally, I think Justicar Thawn at 75pts is worse.... he can capture objectives, wears termy armor, and can hammerhand AND activate his force weapon on the same turn (lvl 2 psyker), as WELL as the same mechanic Celestine has.

You can't get this guy away from objectives :/

Revarien wrote:Um... exalted >.>

What does the "exalt" button even do?

I see it all the time but I don't know what purpose it serves?

It increases your iScore, which in turn boosts your stats. Everyone knows that...

H.B.M.C. wrote:It increases your iScore, which in turn boosts your stats. Everyone knows that...

I don't even know what an iScore is or what it does.

I'm Canadian so I spend most my time as a lumberjack in the frigid north lands and I spend my free time drinking and wrestling bears so sometimes I'm a bit out of the loop.

iScore is a numerical approximation of your ePeen.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm sorry Pretre, my pteranadonic friend, but Shummy's got you here:

Okay, I'll plead ignorance here. Am I like a Pteradon? What does that mean?

The fact that the books are designed in a vacuum is bad game design, as Shummy says. Celestine might have been designed without comparisons to other HQ's, but that's not a point in her favour. Now I can live with Celestine being Queen Bitch of the Universe as long as she is costed correctly. It seems, based upon what Shummy has said, that she is not.

I don't believe that they are designed in a vaccuum. I believe the codexes themselves attempt to be costed to compete with other codexes but that some abilities are worth more in different codexes. As a completely out there example, Meltaguns cost more for some armies because of how cheap their troops are, or how accurate their troops are, or their availability in multiple slots, etc. I think 40k should be better balanced as a whole, but making the same ability cost the same for every unit in the game is probably not the way to do it.

pretre wrote:
I don't believe that they are designed in a vaccuum. I believe the codexes themselves attempt to be costed to compete with other codexes but that some abilities are worth more in different codexes. As a completely out there example, Meltaguns cost more for some armies because of how cheap their troops are, or how accurate their troops are, or their availability in multiple slots, etc. I think 40k should be better balanced as a whole, but making the same ability cost the same for every unit in the game is probably not the way to do it.

I completely agree with this statement. Also, the bad design in the SoB 'codex' imo is a combination of the special characters being under costed and the generic options being over costed. You cannot, however, compare a SM captain to Celestine.

No one has said she is not under costed, she is just not as game breaking (at tournament point levels) as people are making her out to be. Also, I never see Thawn played and he has essentially the same ability as Celestine while also being a scoring unit...

pretre wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm sorry Pretre, my pteranadonic friend, but Shummy's got you here:

Okay, I'll plead ignorance here. Am I like a Pteradon? What does that mean?

I believe it's an incorrect reference to The Land Before Time where the pteranodon was named Petrie.

As opposed to 'pretre'.

DarkStarSabre wrote:I believe it's an incorrect reference to The Land Before Time where the pteranodon was named Petrie.

As opposed to 'pretre'.

Aha! Good call DSS. Yeah, H.B.M.C. called me Petrie before and it was pretty funny. I was really confused and thought that I was missing some really wordy jab at me. lol

"I flied?"

I would be more amused if he made priest jokes though.