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IIRC Caphias Caine always gets the women.

I believe most of the Imperium...the hives and forges at least...and under some kind of population control...so you require a permit to have a family...at least I think in Titanicus one of the afore mentioned members of the married couple says about getting a permit to start a family.

I doubt they have forced celibacy...it's probably just a religious choice, as in real life.

LazzurusMan wrote:I believe most of the Imperium...the hives and forges at least...and under some kind of population control...so you require a permit to have a family...

I could totally see this for Mechanicus Forge Worlds - I like the idea that they are organized so strictly that people are essentially nothing but IDs, strings of numbers to be assigned and reassigned by an automated process depending on where the "human resources" are required. Population control would be just one part of a system designed to work just like the machines the Cult Mechanicus reveres.

For Hives, it'd probably be a bit more difficult. Upper levels... yeah, I guess it would be doable, at least concerning the common workers. But I'd say nobody cares what happens in the Underhive. Of course this too will differ depending on the world in question - or the individual's perception of the setting.

Ouf sounds bad, that's like being married to Boris, whose recreational hobbies consists of drinking booze and growing hair, even if he of the same gender as you because you are just standing next to each other on the production-line.

Melissia wrote:
Anyway, the sister in Cain's Last Stand was probably Mitchell's first attempt to create a likable religious character so I have to cut him some slack, even if the result was facepalm-inducing.

Really? I liekd the sister character in that book. It was different from Cain's usual view on the Sorortias (which showed up in book 5 I think?) and forced him to change his mind.

More to the point it makes the Sisters seem more than two dimensional caricatures. THey all shouldn't be identical in their beliefs or the way they act. It's almost as annoying as when someone writes Space Marines in a repetitive, one dimensional manner.

The problem is that it was basically just trying to play at titillating the reader rather than trying to make her a believable character.

Brilliantly stated Connor. The SOB until now seem uninteresting due to their main trait is angry, seriously something else to add some color would be nice.

What SM did was maybe grasping at straws, but it was better than nothing.

Frankly it was worse than nothing.

It'd take a dedicated author to make Sisters more than merely two dimensional "angry girl burn heretics durr" characters (Sisters really don't have enough material because GW has neglected them for so long). Mitchell wasn't writing for Sisters in that book, he was writing Cain, who hates Sisters and therefor always has negative interpretations of them.

Lynata wrote:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:A lot of people keep saying that space marines are neutered in one way or another but I've never seen it written elsewhere.
Does it say so in one of the Black Library books or something?

I don't recall ever having read it anywhere - it seems to be one of those "community opinions" often presented as fact. There's a number of instances in novels where a Marine would have a chance of engaging a woman but doesn't, which commonly gets interpreted this way (for example, I think someone mentioned a Horus Heresy book where some girl saw a naked Space Marine and she was like "aw, such a waste" or something), just like members of the "Marines need to have dicks!" faction like to interpret some line (a SW "making a pass" at some woman in the SW Codex) in the way that they could do sex. So it all hinges on your perception.

Personally, I think it would make a lot of sense to have them neutered, though, given that the Emperor would not want them to have a "functioning package" anyways. Space Marines are not only warriors first and foremost, they are warriors only - raised and bred purely for battle and not having the luxury of possibly allowing their dicks to distract them from combat, nor do I believe that the Emperor would wish to risk Marines breeding with the population, as this would take control of the geneseed away from Terra and enable rogue Marines to raise as many troops as they'd want. Someone also mentioned that the Emperor saw the Astartes as a temporary measure to win the Great Crusade and that they were meant to fade away into history once all was done, and that he did not want them to replace normal humans (which would happen over time were they to breed, as they are biologically superior).

Then, there's also the matter of biology and mechanics. Given all the chemicals and pseudo-steroids the Marines are pumped full with, I wouldn't be surprised if their package were to atrophy as it happens to bodybuilders who manage to knock their hormone ratio out of balance. Finally, again going by GW, their power armour comes with a waste recycler, and the urine tube needs to be plugged in somewhere. Given the small aversion the 40k setting has as a whole concerning plugging stuff into their bodies, guess what would make the most sense when some piece of organic material isn't required for the soldier's function?

But this, too, is something where everybody needs to make up their own opinion. I'm merely pointing out that Marines are extensively modified and tailored for a singular purpose in life, and that said purpose doesn't really involve sticking it into wimmenz. Also makes becoming a Space Marine somewhat more grimdark, I think, as it takes away another bit of their humanity.

By far the best answer I've ever gotten on the subject.

Thanks

Maybe you should write fluff about them yourself Melissia, instead of just complaining about what a bigotted commissar thinks about them. For me, he seems to smark over old sport-results.

Melissia wrote:The problem is that it was basically just trying to play at titillating the reader rather than trying to make her a believable character.

Thats sandy mitchell for you. Look at the redemptionist he wrote up in his Dark Heresy novels. and then there were those Genestealer brothels...

Anyhow, Ben Counter and James Swallow write some decent Sisters. Asercarion was one of the better parts of the Soul Drinkers novels (and she is perhaps the only Imperial ever to bring a Space Marine back from Chaos. She's that hardcore.) And while I dont' always like the Swallow Sororitas, they generally come across as pretty complex and doing more than just polishing their bolters and shooting people.

There were also those hardcore Famulous in Crossfire who brought down an entire noble house just by using the servants.

Part of the problem si that some writers are always associating Sisters with the Ecclesiarchy (who are 90% donkey-caves) So if you get an donkey-cave priest, you're probably going to get some mindleslsly loyal donkey-cave sister.

The hell is a donkey-cave? xD

Connor MacLeod wrote:More to the point it makes the Sisters seem more than two dimensional caricatures.

The problem is that Sisters, much like Space Marines or other heavily indoctrinated characters, are undoubtedly more difficult to describe and narrate than the average Joe, simply because their uniform upbringing and lifestyle specifically aims to press their personalities in a prefabricated mold. This has nothing to do with being two-dimensional; going against this mold only means that the end result will conflict with what the Adepta Sororitas represent as a whole and violate the spirit of the entire army. Proper representation of such a character requires a more delicate approach, highlighting the slight nuances that will still exist between them as a result out of unique personal experiences (unplanned incidents, potential acquaintances) and minor genetic predispositions (such as being more irritable due to the amount of adrenaline released in stress situations).

What Mitchell did was basically NOT the above but taking a hammer to the job and trying to bash "individuality" into the character by the bluntest way possible. Letting the character do stuff that so fundamentally conflicts with the entire belief system may set her apart for sure, but it also sets her apart from the traits that identify a Sororitas character in the first place.
Or in short, basically, what Melissia and Connor wrote. For what it's worth, it is quite difficult to hit the right string between the "two-dimensional" and "contradictory" extremes, and I do believe that the majority of authors (or roleplayers) fail at doing so, including most Marine fiction I've taken a glance at (though you'll always have the cop-out of just pointing at the Wolves there, I guess). I also think that a two-dimensional portrayal is still much better than one that so strongly goes against everything the Sisters are, though, for it is more than power armour and a prayer on their lips.

Anyways, I definitively agree with Counter and Swallow having done a much better job at balancing this. I'd also add Kev Walker (Daemonifuge) to that list - even though his job was somewhat easier as it focused on a single Sororitas character, I fondly remember the aged Prioress from Ophelia VII who managed to be badass without a weapon aside from her wit and words ("Let's have fate even the odds"), as well as Canoness Ramientes and her remarkably more "political" approach to dealing with the Inquisition when compared to the zealous younger Sisters.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Asercarion was one of the better parts of the Soul Drinkers novels (and she is perhaps the only Imperial ever to bring a Space Marine back from Chaos. She's that hardcore.)

Huh, did Aescarion pop up in more than just the short story "Daemonblood"? *blinks*

Beaviz81 wrote:Maybe you should write fluff about them yourself Melissia

I do, every week in a roleplay session but I'm not an official BL writer Fanfiction is the only thing anyone can agree upon as not being canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:The hell is a donkey-cave? xD

Think about an alternative word for a donkey. Then about an alternative word for a cave.

It's censorship.

I don't think an even angrier nun is a good idea. They are already stereotypically angry. From what I'm getting from you Lynata I'm amazed the whole SOB ain't working for Khorne. The only feeling I see is anger. But the person for me who really destroyed the magic of the Sororitas was Dan Abnett. A Saint that gives Gaunt what he needs? WTF? Then she seduces Milo as well. Who came up with that Saint? Ron Jeremy?

If I should go deeper I would look into any other personality-trait. How hard do they repent and such? What are their desires? Favorite food? What is the general outline of the faith? I guess Mother Theresa might be a good enough rolemodel, and also most of the cadets likely washes out because they doesn't have what it takes to be pure enough of heart to be one.

Also unfortunately I can see priests taking advantage of young Sororitas (reality is a bitch). There likely exist scum-priests in WH40k. as well, and that could scar a nun quite good, while provide some explanation. Of course it must be noted that I in usual fashion is stabbing wildly.

Beaviz81 wrote:Also unfortunately I can see priests taking advantage of young Sororitas

Sisters operate in groups-- almost never do they operate alone.

The confession-thingy. Ouf the Catholic church has it's share of scum-priests, and they are likely even more prominent in a grimdark universe.

Beaviz81 wrote:The confession-thingy.

Sisters confess within the Sisterhood, not to a priest.

Yeah they have Confessors. Sorry, you just can't take everything we have read that sort of is positive from monasteries without the negative things.

Even so, I personally think the problem is far greater than SM designing an out of character SOB. A Saint ran around having sex with multiple guys. I'm almost surprised DA didn't construct a brothel with SOBs. But with a Saint acting that way, of course the rest gets diluted, and it doesn't help one bit that DA and SM is the two most respected writers of WH40K.-fluff.

Beaviz81 wrote:Yeah they have Confessors.

... which do not have the authority to judge Sororitas. In fact, the other way around is true.

The Sororitas have the authority to police and judge the Ecclesiarchy.

From what I'm getting from this, is that the SOB should be serving Khorne. Their sole feeling is anger. I mentioned a certain Saint that had sex, it was blatantly never mentioned again, and the Saints is the best of them.

Beaviz81 wrote:From what I'm getting from you Lynata I'm amazed the whole SOB ain't working for Khorne. The only feeling I see is anger.

Hate is a strong motivator - what keeps them in line are the hundreds of rules that serve to narrowly dictate it towards a singular specific purpose, the impressive discipline practiced by its members, and a strong conviction in serving a good cause. Egoism has practically been eliminated from their minds, they virtually live to serve, and their interconnectedness and endless trust/reliance in each other almost completely eliminate the possibility of corruption. Needless to say, this trust and selflessness can still be abused (see Vandire), but after the Age of Apostasy certain safeguards have been put in place designed to prevent that from happening ever again.

Beaviz81 wrote:But the person for me who really destroyed the magic of the Sororitas was Dan Abnett. A Saint that gives Gaunt what he needs? WTF? Then she seduces Milo as well. Who came up with that Saint? Ron Jeremy?

In case you're referring to Saint Sabbat - I've never actually read that book, but I vaguely know what it's about and what does her reincarnation (if it's even true) have to do with the Sororitas? The original Saint Sabbat existed before the Adepta Sororitas were even founded, and by far not every Saint is a Sister. That supposed reincarnation wasn't even from the Schola Progenium, it was some farmgirl from an agri-world. The only thing the Sororitas have in common with this "Saint" is their genitalia.

Beaviz81 wrote:and also most of the cadets likely washes out because they doesn't have what it takes to be pure enough of heart to be one.

I think "washing out" is only possible once you're still in the selection process in the Schola. According to the Liber Sororitas article in WD, once you're a member of the Orders, "washing out" means being transferred to the Repentia. Once you're in, you're literally "in for life".

Beaviz81 wrote:Also unfortunately I can see priests taking advantage of young Sororitas (reality is a bitch). There likely exist scum-priests in WH40k. as well, and that could scar a nun quite good, while provide some explanation. Of course it must be noted that I in usual fashion is stabbing wildly.

Going by the 2E blurb about the Schola Progenium, scum-priests don't get to serve in a Schola, and considering how strongly it is stressed in the text they likely have strict screening process going on - if you even have male Drill Abbots interacting with female progena in the first place (it is unclear whether the aforementioned gender separation applies only to the progena or to everyone). And after that, the Sisters get to live within the walls of their convent, which doesn't permit "outsiders" to deal with anyone but the Canoness and her most trusted Sisters Superior at any case.

Not saying it's impossible (perhaps something along the lines of an "indecent touch" by the hands of an aged and high-ranking Church official whilst talking to a somewhat inexperienced Sororitas bodyguard who doesn't understand his intentions - or maybe the Schola screening process isn't 100% flawless), just that it's extremely unlikely. You'd probably have a better chance at making up some smut about a lesbian BDSM relationship between two Sisters within the convent walls, and that's got to mean something.

I meant while they were mere cadets. Though what I have to go on there, is actually something I picked up from Bonanza. There a nun washed out, and the nun washing her out was so happy about it, she was pure of heart and all that, just didn't have the dogma in her to be a good nun. I can perfectly see budding Sororitas at the schola washing out in droves as I refuse to believe the second-best warriors of the Emperor doesn't have a high failure-rate. And they ain't killed, just moved to other sections, commissars, arbites and so on. As for the scum-priests, I was stabbing wildly, and I really don't like whatever I write analyzed when I'm stating stabbing wildly. Especially when I write more sensible pieces which is better analyzed, like what I mentioned about the food and Mother Theresa. That was more a last ditch attempt to make a quite scarred Sororita nothing else.

For the Saint, it seem like the vessel was a Sororita if memory serves.

I can't claim to know what happened with Vandire, and even so the little written seem to be more innuendo.

Unfortunately hate is a feeling of Khorne. For me the individual Sororitas are likely full of flaws. Ranging from the ones that takes a wee bit much of sugar on their cereal to more brutal offenders. Claiming trust and selflessness seems to be a very stupid way to adhere to things at WH40k. grimdark still springs to mind. Innocence proves nothing.

Having only skimmed through the Cain books (which have become more or less the focus of the debate), I'll say that, while entertaining, their characters think and behave XXth Century westerners IN SPACE.

Almost no consideration is given to the fact that these people live in a demential society of the distant future, under rules and beliefs that might strike us as utterly alien.

The true test of mettle for a science fiction writer is not taking characters from an alien universe and making them likable by pulling them closer to the reader's mindset. It's creating characters whose actions, morals and circumstances, while strange and perhaps discomforting for current standards, the reader can understand and even relate to.

Please feel free to correct anything I got wrong. I'm writing this on and off while I'm at work.

Maybe we should make a list of things that can actually be sourced and sort some of these issues out like that.

Imperial citizens (not Sororitas or Astartes) seem to behave based on the common culture of their homeworld or their own personal values. For instance in Eisenhorn we find that his pilot, Betancore, had a daughter (seemingly out of wedlock) and that Ravenor (while he was Eisenhorn's interrogator) was involved with another member of the Inquisitor's retinue: "his lover" according to Eisenhorn. This makes sense, since Dark Heresy makes it very clear that even the Imperial Cult varies from world to world. Since the teachings of the Cult Imperialis vary, we can imagine that the individual teachings on sexual activity will vary from sect to sect as well.

Sources: Eisenhorn Trilogy, Dark Heresy, Inquisitor's Handbook

According to Deathwatch, Astartes can become Chem Gelds, but don't start with that *ahem* feature. It's an important note since Deathwatch PCs are already experienced Marines who've been levied to the Deathwatch after doing something of note for an Astartes. That tells us that the Marines are probably physically capable of intercourse. The next question is "Do they have a desire for it?"

Aside from Space Wolves (and their progenitor chapters) most of the chapters seem to be more-or-less monastic in nature. Although the Ultramarines appear to keep a more visible presence in the worlds of Ultramar and we know this because the Codex states that families consider it a great honor for the sons to be selected and eventually become Astartes. They couldn't know that their son had survived to become a scout, let alone graduated from scout to full Battle-Brother without the Ultras telling them so, which means that someone is getting letters from their great-great uncle saying "Hey! Internship's over, they hired me! Love ya! PS The Emperor Protects!" Even with this closer tie, I haven't seen any indication that Ultras take time away from their duties to have relationships or even flings. Chances are good that Astartes are indoctrinated to simply go through their day denying themselves pleasure. I think it was the 4th edition Codex that gave an example of a typical day in the Fortress-Monastery (the second word is important there) where the marines would be woken after 4 hours of sleep, do bolter drills, pray, eat breakfast (or be called away mid meal for combat sims), more drills, lunch (same as breakfast) and so on. Couple this with surgeries and hypno-indoctrination (none of which are given any real detail) they undergo and you can bet that "distracting thoughts" are probably pushed far to the outside of their minds.

In short: Can they? Yes. Do they: Highly doubtful, as the mix of training and indoctrination should keep them in a near-constant state of being 'on the job' as it were.

Sources: Deathwatch, Codex: Space Marines (5th), Codex: Space Marines (4th)[I think]

Now, Space Wolves... Yeah, this one is a bit more tricky. We do know that the Space Wolves keep themselves apart from the rest of the population of Fenris, but they also love to drink and carouse. The definition of carouse is:

ca·rouse   [kuh-rouz] -roused, -rous·ing, noun
verb (used without object)
1. to engage in a drunken revel: They caroused all night.
2. to drink deeply and frequently.

Origin:
1550–60; variant of garouse < German gar aus ( trinken ) (to drink) fully out, i.e. drain the cup; compare Middle French carous < dialectal German gar ūs
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/carouse

So they codex says that they like to drink... and drink. Not much help there. Given their gregarious nature and partying habits, I wouldn't be surprised if the Space Wolves did have lots of sex at their feasts. However, we still don't know what the hypno-indoctrination does to the Astartes. As I'm writing this I'm thinking that the point of it may be to re-route sexual desires into the need for combat. It would serve dual purposes by increasing their aggression and keeping them busy doing what the Emperor needed them to do: Conquer.

In short: Can Space Wolves have intercourse? Yes. Do they want to? Possibly, and if the hypno-indoctrinations used by the Astartes are used by the Wolves (we do know that they use 'deviant' methods of alteration) then the above theory may be in play. If they don't, then the likelihood of horny Space Wolves goes up greatly.

Sources: Codex: Space Wolves, Dictionary.com, my 'd up imagination.

Addendum: While we can be reasonably certain that Astartes are able to perform sexually, we have no information on fertility. With 10,000 years of history and no "bastard son of a space marine" lore around we can hypothesize that they're sterile, but we simply don't know.

I don't know enough about the Sororitas to claim anything, but looking at the comment here and the information about them in the Dark Heresy books, I would be inclined to believe that they're largely celibate.

What does that mean?

They're not supposed to, but some do. "Some" would be a number so small as to be virtually unique, and the book references to Sororitas with lovers could be viewed in that light. After all, it's something of a singular event which makes it interesting, unlike a book detailing how Joe Guardsman field strips his lasgun. We should also ask if the narrator is reliable. Having not read those books, is it possible that he's lying or using the Sister-in-question as a satire?

In short: Can they? Yes. Do they want to? No clue, since we'd need some fiction written from a Sister's PoV to know her actually thoughts, and even that is only representative of her, not all Sororitas. Do they? Highly doubtful.

Sources: This thread, Inquisitor's Handbook

Beaviz81 wrote:I can perfectly see budding Sororitas at the schola washing out in droves as I refuse to believe the second-best warriors of the Emperor doesn't have a high failure-rate. And they ain't killed, just moved to other sections, commissars, arbites and so on.

Technically they aren't Sororitas then, as the novitiate begins only after being transferred to the Order - but yeah, I would think this is likely.

Beaviz81 wrote:As for the scum-priests, I was stabbing wildly, and I really don't like whatever I write analyzed when I'm stating stabbing wildly.

Mhm? I think you did raise a valid point that does warrant some discussions, for the clergy is likely to contain a number of nutjobs abusing their authority for personal gain, especially since worship of the Emperor varies so strongly from region to region. In essence, such priests exist in the real world, so I don't see any reason why they shouldn't exist in 40k. They'd have more chances with non-Sororitas servants, however - especially indentured citizens doing penance for some sin, or the Frateris Militia. Sisters aren't the only females in the Church, after all.

Beaviz81 wrote:Especially when I write more sensible pieces which is better analyzed, like what I mentioned about the food and Mother Theresa.

Alright. Well, given that humility takes a strong place in the Sisters' background, I'd say that their food is pretty basic, and it seems like they do a lot of fasting (there's a lot of holy days in the Ecclesiarchy). As for Mother Teresa, are you referring to a specific incident or her mercyful nature? For I'd say that whilst it has little to do with the Orders Militant, the Hospitallers would be quite similar in their dedication to aid the sick and the poor. Likely combined with still not hesitating to take violent action against heresy when it is spotted, though.

If you want a novel recommendation, James Swallow's Sororitas books actually feature a Sister Militant (the no-nonsense Miriya) and a Sister Hospitaller (the clever but gentle Verity) as the two main protagonists, one being a strong contrast to the other. One could perhaps say Swallow "cheated" when using two different Orders to better differentiate between the personalities of his main characters, but the end result is still nice. "Hammer & Anvil", the newest book about them, introduces a new conflict between Miriya and a new superior who is so fixated on duty and following orders that there's a strong enmity between her and Miriya, the former thinking that the latter is something of a loose cannon and should have been executed long ago. Quite interesting.

Beaviz81 wrote:For the Saint, it seem like the vessel was a Sororita if memory serves.

Hum - well, someone with the book would have to clear this up, I've only read the Lexicanum article and it talks about a farm girl.

Beaviz81 wrote:I can't claim to know what happened with Vandire, and even so the little written seem to be more innuendo.

Regarding the Sisterhood, it's only hinted at, yeah - but for the Schola Progenium it outright describes what can be summed up as child prostitution and slavery. Which is why the Ecclesiarchy launched a major reform of the system, resulting in "today's" Schola Progenium being the direct opposite of the Vandirian era in terms of purity and chastity.

Beaviz81 wrote:For me the individual Sororitas are likely full of flaws.

Of course - for me, it is the flaws that make a character interesting much more than his or her strengths.

Beaviz81 wrote:Claiming trust and selflessness seems to be a very stupid way to adhere to things at WH40k.

Hmm, how so? Selflessness is the perfect protection against mental corruption (the worst thing that could happen is that you become a tool, but that alone won't erode your spirit), and trust plays an integral role in turning their society into a mini-cosmos in which everyone is aware of anyone elses' faults and flaws, in turn doing much to prevent small doubts that may arise from time to time turning into a crisis of faith, or perhaps worse, allow for a Sister to become tainted.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:Having only skimmed through the Cain books (which have become more or less the focus of the debate), I'll say that, while entertaining, their characters think and behave XXth Century westerners IN SPACE.
Almost no consideration is given to the fact that these people live in a demential society of the distant future, under rules and beliefs that might strike us as utterly alien.

That's the vibe I picked up from all the descriptions I have heard from the people talking about these books, aye.

Oh yeah the priest was just my desire to mate the two from Saving Grace and V for Vendetta, toss them into space.

Mother Theresa was known for a fierce temper, and had traits of aggression as well as temperance. I just thought of her more as a model to be honest.

That detail about Vandire was stomach-churning. Where do you have it from.

I guess at flaws like arrogance, pride, judgementalness can be found as flaws of Sororitas, also a desire to pray needlessly for friends I take. I sort of have developed two, one Hospitallier and one rather old Famulous. I can PM you the rough details.

Also I want a storyline where a girl found too pure of heart almost causes disaster.

Beaviz81 wrote:Mother Theresa was known for a fierce temper, and had traits of aggression as well as temperance. I just thought of her more as a model to be honest.

God no. The woman's an embarassment to Catholicism.

There is a character in 40k that uses her as a model - a cult leader from the 3rd edition rulebook who fetishises suffering like a two-bit Slaaneshite - but it's got nothing to do with what a good religious character is like.

Lynata wrote:Hum - well, someone with the book would have to clear this up, I've only read the Lexicanum article and it talks about a farm girl.

Saint Sabbat was not a sororitas. The only time a Sister appeared in the Gaunt books which I've read was as a vision given Gaunt.

Lynata wrote:Regarding the Sisterhood, it's only hinted at, yeah - but for the Schola Progenium it outright describes what can be summed up as child prostitution and slavery. Which is why the Ecclesiarchy launched a major reform of the system, resulting in "today's" Schola Progenium being the direct opposite of the Vandirian era in terms of purity and chastity.

Which is why the Sisters of Battle changed their names from the Brides of he Emperor to the Daughters of the Emperor.

Lynata wrote:Hmm, how so? Selflessness is the perfect protection against mental corruption

Selflessness and humility are the greatest protections against corruption indeed.

Lynata wrote:That's the vibe I picked up from all the descriptions I have heard from the people talking about these books, aye.

Yeah, it definitely has that problem.

^ Hey, we actually agree on something.

Thanks for clearing up the confusion regarding that reincarnation of Saint Sabbat.

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh yeah the priest was just my desire to mate the two from Saving Grace and V for Vendetta, toss them into space.

Heh, I remember that scene in the last one. I'm sure such clerics could exist in the setting, the Ecclesiarchy is pretty vast and the Schola during the Age of Apostasy shows that (just like in RL, I guess) the potential is there - even Thor could only change the rules, not how people may think, and the clergy is recruited from a much more diverse background than the Sisters whilst simultaneously not being held to their strict lifestyle.
Of course, the Sisters would probably act upon such blatant abuse of power if they ever hear of it. They're sort of the internal police, after all.

Beaviz81 wrote:Mother Theresa was known for a fierce temper, and had traits of aggression as well as temperance.

Oh? Guess I only heard an idealized version, might have to investigate further.

Beaviz81 wrote:That detail about Vandire was stomach-churning. Where do you have it from.

That's from the Sisters' 2E Codex:

The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain.

As I always say, lots of interesting fluff in the old books!

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess at flaws like arrogance, pride, judgementalness can be found as flaws of Sororitas, also a desire to pray needlessly for friends I take. I sort of have developed two, one Hospitallier and one rather old Famulous. I can PM you the rough details.

Aye - whilst arrogance and pride are discouraged and eliminated on a personal level by means of humiliation and mortification, I noticed a streak of the very same flaws on an organizational level. Basically, a Sister identifies herself so much with her Order or the Sisterhood as a whole that it becomes like a family to her, complete with seeing an affront against the Orders or her faith as an affront against herself.

"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies."
- from a complaint by Canoness Carmina to General Kurov of the Armageddon Command Guard, GW's Armageddon 3 campaign

Notice the pride?

As for the Hospitaller and the Famulous ... characters, you mean? I'm always open to read other fans' stuff when it concerns an area of interest to myself, but are you looking for feedback or do you have specific questions?

AlexHolker wrote:There is a character in 40k that uses her as a model - a cult leader from the 3rd edition rulebook who fetishises suffering like a two-bit Slaaneshite - but it's got nothing to do with what a good religious character is like.

You mean the Adepta Sororitas Canoness in the rulebook's fluff blurb? I thought it was a pretty accurate portrayal. Few people seem to know it, but the Sisters have always been described that way, since the very days of 1E Rogue Trader ("penitent organization", "constant hardship and deprivation", ...). This is 40k. They aren't "normal people", which is why I'm so confused every time someone pulls that Pseudo-Sororitas from the Cain books as an example.

The Mother Superior took up a pen and carefully began to take notes. To my astonishment the silver pen appeared to be studded with short pins or nails which vexed the flesh of her fingers as she wrote. He fingers were quite raw where the skin had been worn away by the sharp points, yet she made no outward signs of discomfort as if this were the most natural thing in the world. Doubtlessly seeing my expression of horror, she stopped writing and carefully put the pen on the tabletop.
'Our belief,' she said slowly, 'is that there are two reasons only for a thing to be made. The first is that its manufacture inflicts suffering upon its maker which is reason enough to make it. The second is that the thing, once made, causes suffering to those who use it. It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering. Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?'
'I have heard this and other things too,' I mumbled, embarrassed by what must have appeared a morbid fascination.
'Of course. Hair-shirts! Naked vigils on cold stone floors! The scourge of prayer and endless mortifications of the flesh!' She smiled as if amused by my timidity. I had heard of these things of course but could not answer her. 'This pen,' she said matter of factly, 'was made by Sister Chastity to remind us that words have their price, for there is no value in suffering for its own sake, is there!'

I'm sure you have also read the line "Prayer cleanses the soul, but pain cleanses the body" a couple times by now, it gets reprinted in a number of 40k books.