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Lynata wrote:The problem is that Sisters, much like Space Marines or other heavily indoctrinated characters, are undoubtedly more difficult to describe and narrate than the average Joe, simply because their uniform upbringing and lifestyle specifically aims to press their personalities in a prefabricated mold. This has nothing to do with being two-dimensional; going against this mold only means that the end result will conflict with what the Adepta Sororitas represent as a whole and violate the spirit of the entire army. Proper representation of such a character requires a more delicate approach, highlighting the slight nuances that will still exist between them as a result out of unique personal experiences (unplanned incidents, potential acquaintances) and minor genetic predispositions (such as being more irritable due to the amount of adrenaline released in stress situations).

Sisters should be easier to write than Space Marines, becuase they aren't indoctirnated and changed the way Space Marines are. Unless there's some sources somewhere where they are pumped full of chemicals FOR THE EMPEROR! or something. They come from the same Schola that the Commissars, Storm Troopers, and other Imperial types come from. They can be fanatical in their own way, but writing sisters should not be any more difficult. Also, don't forget that Sisters can incorporate more than the Sisters of Battle. You have the famulous, hospitallers, etc. There have been some pretty badass hospitallers (Verity is one, there was one in the 'Tales from the Dark Millenium' short story who lead IG troops into battle, there was the one from Warriors of Ultramar...)

What the Sisters have in advantage vs Space Marines is that they have a scope for being more than 'just warriors' - they have the religious angle too, but they have representations in every area and branch of society through their various orders, and that gives them scope and complexity in interacting with the Imperium, as well as the personal interactions with their own members. And the Imperial creed is a very open ended (even contradictory) one, unlike the more uniform Chapter Cults of the Astartes - you can get lots of different 'sects' or schisms that might crop up within the Creed - why should the Sisters be any less vulnerable to that?

Really its the whole 'nuns iwth guns' angle that bugs me, because it over-simplifies them into being the pawns of the Effing Priests, who are on the whole useless. Whereas the Sisters, at least by traditional interpretations, are actually the inheritors of Sebastion Thor's legacy. They're the ones he entrusted to keep the churhc on course and pure, and thats also why they are part of the inquistiion.

What Mitchell did was basically NOT the above but taking a hammer to the job and trying to bash "individuality" into the character by the bluntest way possible. Letting the character do stuff that so fundamentally conflicts with the entire belief system may set her apart for sure, but it also sets her apart from the traits that identify a Sororitas character in the first place.

I disagree. What makes Aescarion and Miriya (and Verity) exceptional as characters is that they basically do, in their own ways, break the Sisters of Battle stereotypes. When confronted with a traitor Marine, Aescarion does not scream FOR THE EMPEROR! PURGE AND BURN! No. She uses words and faith as her weapon, and manages to not only recover a soul for the Emperor, but manages to Eff up Nurgle in the process - how many of the more fanatical sisters would have considered that, or approved? Miriya breaks stereotype in the sense that she is not a mindlessly obedient robot or tool. She has her own views, her own take on faith, and she also has the courage to carry out her convictions no matter the cost (especially to her.) even if it means defying authority. She even accepts demotion as a consequence, and yet she still remains herself. On top of that in Hammer and Anvil we saw more of that 'convert and reason' type faith rather than 'PURGE THE SLIGHTLY IMPURE' with Decima, which is also good. I don't share the same dislike you evidently do for Mitchell's character because a.) I see it as breaking the stereotype in a different and interesting way and b.) as Melissa points out, the Cain novels are written with an obvious Cain-centric bias, and you have to take some (most?) of his perceptions with a grain of salt. Even Amberley points this out on more than one occasion in all the novels. So the Sister cain remembers may not be 100% the way he recalls or depicts her, but I suspect that at the core she is enough like that to make her (to me) as interesting as Aescarion.

Huh, did Aescarion pop up in more than just the short story "Daemonblood"? *blinks*

Aescarion makes an appearance in 'Bleeding Chalice' serving alongside an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor. Bleeding Chalice was one of the better Soul Drinkers novels. Aescarion unfortunately did not turn or kill Sarpedon, but I don't hold that against her.


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Melissia wrote:Saint Sabbat was not a sororitas. The only time a Sister appeared in the Gaunt books which I've read was as a vision given Gaunt.

She may or may not have been a Sister. Gaunt only saw her as such because that's the only point of reference he has and it could be he simply interpreted the vision he got that way. The warp is funny that way.

Anyhow, the Sabbat World Crusade guidebook had a little blurb abou tthe sisters I remember:

Page 8


Mind you given that the warp is weird enough to allow time travel crud to occur, its not impossible that 'sister's showed up at some point in some way. Will of the Emperor and all that. Might even make a fascinating story for Abnett to write.

Relationships are pretty normal for normal people in 40K. The Imperial Cult doesn't place a taboo on sex because it was invented after birth control unlike most irl religons.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Sisters should be easier to write than Space Marines, becuase they aren't indoctirnated and changed the way Space Marines are. Unless there's some sources somewhere where they are pumped full of chemicals FOR THE EMPEROR! or something.

I don't quite agree there. Space Marines at least had a childhood once, Sisters are literally raised in the Schola Progenium from being a small toddler and then subjected to an extensive regime of religious indoctrination. Space Marines have it a lot easier even if you just consider that you have numerous Chapters which all have a unique history and personality type. Put a Space Wolf next to a Black Templar and tell me it's going to be hard to describe the differences between them.

Connor MacLeod wrote:They come from the same Schola that the Commissars, Storm Troopers, and other Imperial types come from.

The Schola seems to have different classes, so that the amount of indoctrination may vary. Mind you, I am of the opinion that Commissars and Storm Troopers are just as blinded by zeal (well, maybe not as much, but close). That's what makes Commissars so effective at controlling the troops, and Storm Troopers so efficient at doing their job. A Commissar in particular is like a male Battle Sister permanently attached to a unit of common soldiers, leading by example and making sure none of them jumps out of line. Which is another reason why I think Cain has no place in the setting - at least following the basics and guidelines established by the studio.

Connor MacLeod wrote:And the Imperial creed is a very open ended (even contradictory) one, unlike the more uniform Chapter Cults of the Astartes - you can get lots of different 'sects' or schisms that might crop up within the Creed - why should the Sisters be any less vulnerable to that?

Because GW says so.

This is from the Liber Sororitas as printed in White Dwarf:

"As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra, or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.

It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of its doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.

Despite the lack of significant divergences between the Orders Militant in terms of organisation and combat doctrine, there is a degree of variance to be found within the teachings of the founders of the Orders, which tends to reflect the outlook of each Founding Saint. For example, the Sisters of the Order of Our Martyred Lady can be said to reflect the vengeful nature of their patron, Saint Katherine, while the Sisters of the Order the Bloody Rose share the brooding, quick to anger nature of Saint Mina."

Their teachings are furthermore unified across the entire Schola Progenium system, and the so-called "Rule of Sororitas" is a set of tomes detailing the dogmae of the Sororitas, kept sacrosanct by the Sisterhood as a whole and applying to all its Orders. Aside from the aforementioned slight idolization of its founding Saint, there isn't much room in terms of deviation from uniform behavorial patterns originating in the San Leor temple - certainly not enough to allow individual Sisters to get laid.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Really its the whole 'nuns iwth guns' angle that bugs me, because it over-simplifies them into being the pawns of the Effing Priests, who are on the whole useless.

I think you're underestimating the clergy. There's a whole lot of manipulative politicians and dirty egoists amongst them, but the Imperial Cult is still a warrior church, and together with the PDF, the Ecclesiarchy's Preachers and Confessors are often the very first defence any Imperial world has against alien invaders, mutant uprisings or heretical cults popping up, way before any Space Marine Chapter or Imperial Guard regiment can arrive to render assistance. Many of these priests are permanently attached to Imperial Guard regiments, or brave the hostile frontiers of alien space on the lookout for lost human colonies with nothing but a shotgun and a prayer book in their hands.

Cut 'em some slack.

Connor MacLeod wrote:When confronted with a traitor Marine, Aescarion does not scream FOR THE EMPEROR! PURGE AND BURN! No. She uses words and faith as her weapon, and manages to not only recover a soul for the Emperor, but manages to Eff up Nurgle in the process - how many of the more fanatical sisters would have considered that, or approved?

I think an important thing to remember is that Aescarion was offended by witnessing the fall of this Space Marine first-hand, then turning it into a personal quest to bring him to justice. Given that even other Sisters in the same story disapproved of this, it's not a difference in writer's opinion and thus remains perfectly compatible to studio material.

Connor MacLeod wrote:breaking the stereotype in a different and interesting way

I definitively wouldn't use the term "interesting" for what amounts to a Veteran Sister Superior, whose purpose it is to school and teach the next generation of young Sororitas, being turned from a virtuous example of her faith into a friendly neighborhood girl fraternizing with a bunch of men out of boredom, drinking alcohol and playing games for fun.
If you think so, that's fine, just be aware that this goes strongly against all that Games Workshop has ever written about how the Sisters tick.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Aescarion makes an appearance in 'Bleeding Chalice' serving alongside an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor. Bleeding Chalice was one of the better Soul Drinkers novels. Aescarion unfortunately did not turn or kill Sarpedon, but I don't hold that against her.

Ah, I feel almost tempted to read that now. Was the Inquisitor the same guy who "organized" Aescarion's trip to confront Castus, perchance? Would make sense if he recruited her afterwards.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Anyhow, the Sabbat World Crusade guidebook had a little blurb abou tthe sisters I remember:

Spoiler:

It is the archived mention of the sisters militant that has caused some scholars to question the received wisdom of Sabbat's origins. The Saint's Crusade took place almost a thousand years before the Age of Apostasy and the rise of the Adeptus Sororitas, but many have conjectured that, far from being a humble shepherd girl, she was a devotee of the Daughters of the Emperor who had somehow travelled across half the galaxy from San Leor to lead the Crusade. Were the Daughters of the Emperoror active outside San Leor prior ot the time of Vandire?

Certainly, relic evidence suggests her command of sisters militant had some apparent connection with the Order of Our Martyred Lady, and it is even possible they could have formed the basis of that order. however, the true nature of the connection, if any, remains firmly in the realm of Imperial myth.

Mind you given that the warp is weird enough to allow time travel crud to occur, its not impossible that 'sister's showed up at some point in some way. Will of the Emperor and all that. Might even make a fascinating story for Abnett to write.

Of course we have to remember that this is about the original Saint Sabbat and not the girl actually encountered by Gaunt, if I understand the synopsis correctly.

Beaviz81 wrote:The Jackalwolf. He rocks, twelve women in one night before he got to be a Space Wolf. Wait a minute, now shouldn't the police show up?

Yeah, that was the guy I was thinking about. Wait... how does he get twelve women if Marines are inducted before puberty? That would mean.... ew. Yeah. Call the cops.

Connor MacLeod wrote:She may or may not have been a Sister.

She wasn't. There is no "may or may not".

I admit not liking that blurb on the sabbat worlds crusade though. It sounds like baseless speculation for the sake of baseless speculation...

It's true. Saint Sabbat was a farmer.

I think that in codex: SW, Lukas the Trickster is being infamous for "sharing a dozen beds in one night" or something like that. Might have been before he became SW though.

Yeah, so call the cops already. This is really horrible.

Space wolves are inducted later. He was between 14 and 20 at the time. Of age on fenris. No need to call anyone

I think you're also attempting to apply real-world legalities on a planet where the average person dies by the age of 40, generally by being eaten by a giant fish or something.

Life on Fenris is generally short, brutal, and exceedingly unpleasant, except for the epic boozing and wenching... which is likely to get you killed when the volcanoes start erupting and the islands start sinking and the waves start crashing down and all the similarly catastrophic events that regularly plague Fenris.

Lynata that was some extremely twisted reading, but luckily it's 12 or older at least, even though that's also pretty gut-wrenching.

As for the priest, oddly enough I had quite another story for him than him being at a schola.

Mother Teresa is rumored to have an anger that scared even the pope. And he faced down the man trying to kill him, and was scared by a small nun. Well if the histories I have heard on TV is to be believed. If not someone is making a joke I'm totally not getting.

Psienesis wrote:I think you're also attempting to apply real-world legalities on a planet where the average person dies by the age of 40, generally by being eaten by a giant fish or something.

And even on our real world, the so-called Age of Consent differs wildly depending on the country in question. It's all a question of what any given population is being told about what is supposed to define "normalcy".

Beaviz81 wrote:Lynata that was some extremely twisted reading, but luckily it's 12 or older at least, even though that's also pretty gut-wrenching.

12 years? You mean when they finish the Schola?
For some reason I always thought they'd finish at around 14-18, depending on their class, but that's just because I'm assuming they're supposed to be "ready for duty" upon being transferred.

When thinking about the Schola Progenium, I tend to compare them to Nazi-Germany's Napola system, just starting way earlier and with lots of prayer.
Seen a movie on this subject once, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBcPXnLR6Oc

Beaviz81 wrote:As for the priest, oddly enough I had quite another story for him than him being at a schola.

Well, then it should fit, right?

They enter the schola at 12 years of age. I sort of figured the graduation age to be 21, as that kind of make sense (old age of casting vote). I think 14 year olds should not be allowed even to be cadet-commissars in regiments for example or budding cops. Go for 21 Lynata

As for the priest, not a very pleasant story. The victim eventually commits suicide. The priest is kicked to death by Penal Troopers.

Beaviz81 wrote:They enter the schola at 12 years of age.

Huh, where have you read that?
If we go by GW Codex fluff, at least the Sisters of Battle are raised in the Schola from earliest age onward - I'm not sure why it should be different for other orphans. Note that "orphan" would thus probably mean: Parents are working for the Imperium in a capacity that has them unable to care for the child, which means it gets orphaned at birth even though the parents are still alive. Though I guess it is possible that older orphans may occasionally be taken in.

I have it from Gaunt. There Gaunt is living with anutie and cheffie, then taken to the schola at 12.

Ah. Well ... novel authors and their interpretations.

It doesn't actually contradict anything, though - from the GW fluff, we only know that the Sisters of Battle are raised in the Schola from birth.
I took this as exemplary for all progena, but of course that's not the only possible conclusion one could achieve!

I have no compulsions of seeing nobles bribing their kids into a schola for a hope of military glory, also kids with very alive parents can probably be recommended in if they show exceptional skills with something, lets say a fire-arm f.ex.

As a side-note you never answered me about the nun, so I assume you disliked the whole construct? It is a very rough draft.

Gaunt goes to the Scholam at 12 because his father, also a Commissar, was killed in action...

No it was actually a colonel, his "uncle" Decuius recommended him in. Oktar was his mentor, he died slowly as the orks poisoned him and promoted Gaunt as he was dying. The duel happened later, and then Decius was killed.

Beaviz81 wrote:As a side-note you never answered me about the nun, so I assume you disliked the whole construct? It is a very rough draft.

No, no - just didn't get around reading it yet. I took a short glance and noticed it's a somewhat longer text, so I wanted to wait until I have some more time and can concentrate on it. Unfortunately, yesterday's work then left me too exhausted to engage in anything that requires mental attentiveness.

I'll get around to it - sorry for the confusion.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ibram_Gaunt#.Tzw7WbTNn2w

I was slightly off in my timing, in that it was after his promotion to Commissar wherein he duels his uncle, not immediately after leaving the Scholam.

Psienesis wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ibram_Gaunt#.Tzw7WbTNn2w

I was slightly off in my timing, in that it was after his promotion to Commissar wherein he duels his uncle, not immediately after leaving the Scholam.

You was all off. The dad is the colonel, Decius is the "uncle", Oktar is the other commissar. Then you have the years 20 years earlier (gets selected by Oktar), 18 years ealier (Oktar dies and promotes Gaunt as he dies), 16 years earlier (Gaunt kills Decius in a duel making an impossible move while his intestines are dangling from his belly).

Sorry I came off a tad harsh, wasn't my intention. My parents are as usual burring me over the phone.

As for the parties in pants in the Scholam, Eisenhorn says he lost his V card at 16 in the Schola Progenium.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Obviously in a game that's aimed 12-year old British boys GW wants to stay as far from the subject of S-E-X as possible.

Genocide, fascism, totalitarianism, religious terrorism, shallow morals, torture and mass-murder a-okay, but if someone takes their pants off then...

Sadly marriage often gets sidelined in sci-fi because it's too boring. We want lasers, not marital issues.

Beaviz81 wrote:Oktar was his mentor, he died slowly as the orks poisoned him and promoted Gaunt as he was dying.

Wot's dis about da boyz using poison ta zog da 'umies? Dat's izn't orky! WAAAAAGH!!!

CuddlySquig wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Oktar was his mentor, he died slowly as the orks poisoned him and promoted Gaunt as he was dying.

Wot's dis about da boyz using poison ta zog da 'umies? Dat's izn't orky! WAAAAAGH!!!

Daft 'oomie just couldn't hold his squig-beer iz all.

Wot's dis about da boyz using poison ta zog da 'umies? Dat's izn't orky! WAAAAAGH!!!

That's even brought up in the novel, as it was completely out-of-character for the Orks, who prefer the straight-on attack, to use poison to kill Imperial forces. Regardless, it was quite effective.

Well, from a Ciaphas Cain novel (can't remember which one(GOD I'm using that as a source a lot lately, coincidence mutch?)), some dude was doing the nasty with a ranked SoB.

Yeah, which is... not well-received by a number of people, mainly because it flies in the face of pre-established SOB lore. It's been posited that the Cain novels might be written as a sort of in-universe parody.

I wouldn't have reacted much personally had they been married, but it's the casual nature of the relationship that rankles me. I can see SOBs smiling and laughing, but that should likely be when they are burning or torturing heretics and such, not when they get drunk or cracking jokes which ain't about buring or torturing heretics.

I would throw this in with the bag of "The Imperium does not have time to care".

Really if you brought to guys in to your local Arbites officer for "Having gay sex" the officer would probably shoot you for wasting his time.

A planet can have all the weird sex it wants as long as it's not Chaos related, and as long as they pay the tithes.