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The Great State of Texas

alarmingrick wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:The forceful nature by which some in Dakka OT have justified their political stances in recent threads as being "based in Christianity" led me to seek out some of this wisdom for myself.

Low and behold I found this:
Spoiler:


The above image taken from this site:

http://teapartyjesus.tumblr.com/
(Click on each picture to see who said it, etc.)

A collection of true quotes from some of our geatest modern "Christian" thinkers...


Sometimes one can see why fatwas are issued.


Christians don't have fatwas. We're to turn the other cheek and say "thank you sir, may I have another".


Here's the part I like:


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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USA

Or at least chastise their politicians, whom represent them and their views, for calling Homosexuals "terrorists" simply for pushing for equal rights under law. Or the ones that claim that all homosexuals should be executed or put in jail. Or the ones that claim "raising funds for breast cancer research is making men subservient to women". Or the ones that say anyone who's had an abortion is a whore or a prostitute. Or the ones that make craptons of racist comments and constantly attack minorities as lazy and worthless criminals. Or the ones that want to "put judicial activists on the endangered species list" like the grey wolf was (IE through being hunted to near extinction). Or the ones that say we should "empty the clip" on illegal immigrants.



It's not a very happy picture to look at when you have governors and congressmen at both the state and the federal level doing these kinds of things. By silently allowing these things to go on, the majority Christian population is perpetuating them and agreeing with them. Yet somehow people on this forum are wondering why minorities generally don't want to vote Republican.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 15:04:10


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

What gets trippy is its: Thou shalt not murder.

Is it murder if they violate God's law?

Discuss.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 15:03:44


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Whose responsibilty is it to chastise a politician who claims to be a Christian but makes hateful, intolerant, and/or bigoted statements? If Christian organization do not stand up and say "that guy doesn't represent us", does that represent an implicit approval?

I personally don't have a problem with Christianity and have met a number of Christians whom I like and admire. But I do think that the website cited here makes a disturbing point that there appears to be a conflict in how Christian beliefs are protrayed in our current politics and used to justify arguments which seem un-Christian, at least to me as an outsider (albeit one with an interest in politics and some background in religious studies).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
alarmingrick wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Sometimes one can see why fatwas are issued.

Christians don't have fatwas. We're to turn the other cheek and say "thank you sir, may I have another".

Here's the part I like:



Is that the part where Tarantino took part of a quote from the Old Testament, and wrote a bunch more onto it? I'm going to take it as amusing for that to be cited by a Christian, as I presume you know it's not actually a Biblical quote.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/20 15:26:23


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USA

Mannahnin wrote:Whose responsibilty is it to chastise a politician who claims to be a Christian but makes hateful, intolerant, and/or bigoted statements?

If Christian organization do not stand up and say "that guy doesn't represent us", does that represent an implicit approval?
When they voted for him/her, yes.

Ignorance of politics isn't really a very good excuse when you're trying to stick your head in politics to begin with, as many Christian organizations are trying to do.

I don't have a problem with Christianity or Christians in general, but I DO have a problem with hate-mongers. That the two groups intersect so much is a very sad thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 15:28:09


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My blog
 
   
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Mannahnin wrote:Whose responsibilty is it to chastise a politician who claims to be a Christian but makes hateful, intolerant, and/or bigoted statements?

If Christian organization do not stand up and say "that guy doesn't represent us", does that represent an implicit approval?

Isn't this the argument that anti-Muslim groups have made about Islamic Terrorism? Isn't that argument also shouted down rather forcefully?

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
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Manchester, NH

Not by me, at any rate. I say the same thing about them as I do about Christians.

The hatemongers are not representative of the religion, but it is disturbing that there is not a greater and more widespread denunciation of them by the good and normal and reasonable people who are part of the same religion.

Also, in this thread we're talking about elected officials, not terrorists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 15:33:50


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Mannahnin wrote:Not by me, at any rate. I say the same thing about them as I do about Christians.


You do?

Mannahnin wrote:Regardless of whether Osama sincerely believed, the actions he put into practice were betrayals and perversions of all the positive teachings of Islam. Much as the murders and terrorism committed by the KKK were perversions and betrayals of the peaceful teachings of Christianity.

Referring to the hateful philosophy and murderous ideas advanced by Bin Laden as a "pathetic excuse of teachings" is not a reflection on the millions of peaceful Muslims around the world. It is a judgment on the philosophy of hatred and evil which Osama himself supported and recruited others into.

It's unfortunate, but you don't.

You gave "millions of peaceful Muslims" a pass on OBL (and rightly so), but condem Christians (and Christianity I suppose) for not speaking out against what you deem improper comments by religious political figures.

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Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Mannahnin wrote:Whose responsibilty is it to chastise a politician who claims to be a Christian but makes hateful, intolerant, and/or bigoted statements? If Christian organization do not stand up and say "that guy doesn't represent us", does that represent an implicit approval?


I'm pretty sure the fact that there's no way that someone who says these really hateful things will be elected on a national level means that there's enough Christians who disagree with them for such generalizations as I mentioned to be considered inaccurate.

Mannahnin wrote:I personally don't have a problem with Christianity and have met a number of Christians whom I like and admire. But I do think that the website cited here makes a disturbing point that there appears to be a conflict in how Christian beliefs are protrayed in our current politics and used to justify arguments which seem un-Christian, at least to me as an outsider (albeit one with an interest in politics and some background in religious studies).


There's several avenues to go down from here, regarding this subject. I'll engage you on the topic, because I'm confident that you'll discuss this in good faith. I've found that typing thoughtful responses that are met with "hurrr nuh uh" is to be colossal waste of time.

I'd like to know what conflicts you refer to, so I can address them.

As to the taking care of the poor thing, I completely agree that it seems that many Christian politicians may seem to be uncharitable when it comes to matters of policy. I'm sure it varies wildly from candidate to candidate but I would imagine that there's decent plurality (I won't say majority, as I don't have the figures handy.) that believes that charitable giving should be left up to the individual and not mandated by the government. Personally, I believe that this line of thinking falls apart when you get into subjects like corporate personhood and factor in how much of America's money is controlled by people whose only loyalty is to their bottom line and their stockholders, but I don't doubt the sincerity of most people who hold this belief.

As far as Gay Marriage is concerned, I consider marriage to be a legal matter so I don't see the problem. Whether or not being gay is a sin isn't an issue, at least to me it isn't, because everyone sins every day. People who are overly judgmental need to remember Romans 3:23:

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


So without even getting into whether or not being gay is a sin (I have several gay friends, most of whom are much nicer people than I am ) I say to you that is not, in my opinion, for other people to judge them. Anyway, I have to go to class in a bit, so I'll check back in later.

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USA

Monster Rain wrote:I'm pretty sure the fact that there's no way that someone who says these really hateful things will be elected on a national level
Gingrich and Santorum both stand a good chance of getting nominated on a national level. Perhaps if one of them does, we'll see if this really is a fact?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 15:55:08


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My blog
 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

I said elected, not nominated. Let's leave the goalpoasts where they are, shall we?

I shouldn't have to explain that the primaries are all about being extreme.

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USA

Monster Rain wrote:I said elected, not nominated. Let's leave the goalpoasts where they are, shall we?

I shouldn't have to explain that the primaries are all about being extreme.
... and I shouldn't have to explain this part:
Melissia wrote:Perhaps if one of them does, we'll see if this really is a fact?

IE, if either of those gets nominated, it certainly would test your statement. You know, seeing as it would then have them for election on a national level. And they've both had a history of racist, homophobic, and sexist statements.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 16:06:16


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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MN (Currently in WY)

Newsflash: People use the words of others (In this case Jesus) to justify their own twisted and hateful ideas!

If it wasn't Jesus, it would be Adam Smith. If it wasn't Adam Smith, it would be Ayn Rand. If it wasn't Ayn Rand it would be, Karl marx. If is wasn't Marx, it would be whoever was convenient.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/20 16:09:21


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Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Melissia wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:I said elected, not nominated. Let's leave the goalpoasts where they are, shall we?

I shouldn't have to explain that the primaries are all about being extreme.
... and I shouldn't have to explain this part:
Melissia wrote:Perhaps if one of them does, we'll see if this really is a fact?

IE, if either of those gets nominated, it certainly would test your statement. You know, seeing as it would then have them for election on a national level. And they've both had a history of racist, homophobic, and sexist statements.


I could have sworn the post I responded to read a bit differently a moment ago.

I suppose you'd then have to prove that the reason they were elected was because of their "racism" and homophobia, and not any of the other pillars of their respective campaigns though.

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Oklahoma City, Ok.

Melissia wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:I'm pretty sure the fact that there's no way that someone who says these really hateful things will be elected on a national level
Gingrich and Santorum both stand a good chance of getting nominated on a national level. Perhaps if one of them does, we'll see if this really is a fact?


Well, Bachman was elected Congresswoman, And Santorum had been elected Senator.

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Come again some other day
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Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

The House of Representatives is full of crazy people on both sides of the aisle, and Santorum was replaced by someone much more moderate, as I recall.

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Manchester, NH

biccat wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:Not by me, at any rate. I say the same thing about them as I do about Christians.


You do?

Mannahnin wrote:Regardless of whether Osama sincerely believed, the actions he put into practice were betrayals and perversions of all the positive teachings of Islam. Much as the murders and terrorism committed by the KKK were perversions and betrayals of the peaceful teachings of Christianity.

Referring to the hateful philosophy and murderous ideas advanced by Bin Laden as a "pathetic excuse of teachings" is not a reflection on the millions of peaceful Muslims around the world. It is a judgment on the philosophy of hatred and evil which Osama himself supported and recruited others into.

It's unfortunate, but you don't.

You gave "millions of peaceful Muslims" a pass on OBL (and rightly so), but condem Christians (and Christianity I suppose) for not speaking out against what you deem improper comments by religious political figures.


You are misunderstanding or deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote there. In the quoted section, as you should be able to clearly see, I treat Christianity and Christian terrorists the exact same way I do Islam and Islamic terrorists.

As I already pointed out, in this thread we're not talking about the words of abhorred terrorists. We're talking about hateful or disconcerting rhetoric coming from elected officials or national candidates who actually get voted for. If a political candidate in the US or another first-world nation got elected while spouted nasty Islamist rhetoric, perverting the Koran into something hateful, I'd be equally condemnatory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:Whose responsibilty is it to chastise a politician who claims to be a Christian but makes hateful, intolerant, and/or bigoted statements? If Christian organization do not stand up and say "that guy doesn't represent us", does that represent an implicit approval?


I'm pretty sure the fact that there's no way that someone who says these really hateful things will be elected on a national level means that there's enough Christians who disagree with them for such generalizations as I mentioned to be considered inaccurate.


As noted, folks like Bachman and Santorum have been elected to national office in the past, and there are people who make similar public statements who are presently in office. From my perspective, this seems to indicate that using religion as a tool of divisiveness and us-them politics seems to have at least some track record of success.


Monster Rain wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:I personally don't have a problem with Christianity and have met a number of Christians whom I like and admire. But I do think that the website cited here makes a disturbing point that there appears to be a conflict in how Christian beliefs are protrayed in our current politics and used to justify arguments which seem un-Christian, at least to me as an outsider (albeit one with an interest in politics and some background in religious studies).


There's several avenues to go down from here, regarding this subject. I'll engage you on the topic, because I'm confident that you'll discuss this in good faith. I've found that typing thoughtful responses that are met with "hurrr nuh uh" is to be colossal waste of time.

I'd like to know what conflicts you refer to, so I can address them.


Well, you go into talking about one of them below. Based on what I've read of Jesus' teachings, it would seem to me that a cornerstone of Christian politics would logically be support of the poor. But in practice it doesn't seem to work out that way. The last prominent Christian politician I remember talking a lot about the poor, about peace, and about self-sacrifice was Jimmy Carter.



Monster Rain wrote:As far as Gay Marriage is concerned, I consider marriage to be a legal matter so I don't see the problem. Whether or not being gay is a sin isn't an issue, at least to me it isn't, because everyone sins every day. People who are overly judgmental need to remember Romans 3:23:

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


So without even getting into whether or not being gay is a sin (I have several gay friends, most of whom are much nicer people than I am ) I say to you that is not, in my opinion, for other people to judge them. Anyway, I have to go to class in a bit, so I'll check back in later.


And this is one of the reasons I respect you as a person. You are able to reconcile your religious beliefs with tolerance toward your fellow man and with modern conceptions of human rights. Given what Jesus said about how to treat other people, and about not judging, and about caring for people even if you believe them to be sinners, your position seems to me the one most consistent with Christianity. But your position does not seem to be one held by prominent Christian politicians. At least not one that's publicly spoken (except maybe by Democrats, like Obama). And I think it really should be publicly spoken. Christians shouldn't be hearing only the condemnatory position, and seeing people who are intolerant of gay marriage as the only ones representing their religious views in the public sphere. I think it also does a disservice to Christianity and Christians that non-Christians like me only see these jerks up there representing their views as Christian ones. It gives the false impression that you're all like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:The House of Representatives is full of crazy people on both sides of the aisle..


While true, IME when someone makes this kind of comment it's often a way of avoiding or minimizing the issue. "Both sides do it' only matters if we're playing a game of tit-for-tat. But if the point is to get red of the crazy and bad people, then if crazy people are on both sides of the aisle, then all of those crazy people should be criticized. That way hopefully they get thrown out of office in the next election, once their craziness is pointed out and made obvious.



This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/02/20 16:55:50


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Implicit in the popularity of these figures is a terrible education system. I can't think of a single western country where those sorts of views are tolerated in public figures, let alone encouraged.
For comparison, the Christian Party in the UK got a grant total of 0.1% in the 2010 general election.
Though it does look like Obama is going to sweep back into a second term in office, so maybe these peoples' time is over.

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Easy E wrote:Newsflash: People use the words of others (In this case Jesus) to justify their own twisted and hateful ideas!

If it wasn't Jesus, it would be Adam Smith. If it wasn't Adam Smith, it would be Ayn Rand. If it wasn't Ayn Rand it would be, Karl marx. If is wasn't Marx, it would be whoever was convenient.


Thanks for telling us what we all already know.

I never understand this type of post.

Because people as a whole (says you) have a habit of deplorable/hypocritical behavior it shouldn't be discussed or opposed, or people should just accept it?

What is your point in pointing out the obvious exactly?


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The obvious is often forgot in an attempt to score points.

Also, what is obvious to you is not obvious to all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 18:15:21


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The thing to remember in this is the fact that it is possible to find non Christians, liberals, OWS people, and others with similar quotes that can either be twisted, taken out of context, or in context to reveal departures from professed beliefs.
Go to any conservative web site and you could find threads similar to this one.
Just saying this to back up Easy's point.

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Manchester, NH

Relapse wrote:The thing to remember in this is the fact that it is possible to find non Christians, liberals, OWS people, and others with similar quotes that can either be twisted, taken out of context, or in context to reveal departures from professed beliefs.


A) Well, then the first question is whether the comments are truly taken out of context. If the quotes represent their actual and consistently-espoused positions, then nothing is being twisted. The irony of the site's humor is placing the quote out of context into Jesus' mouth, but that doesn't mean the politician in question is being misrepresented. Rather their words are being contrasted with the teachings of the moral figure whom they claim to be attempting to emulate. If there is a conflict there, without the politician's words being twisted or misrepresented, then there would seem to be at least an element of hypocrisy present.

B) Your post seems like an attempt to dismiss the issue by saying "other people do it too"; but as our mothers taught us, two wrongs don't make a right. Please let me know if I've mistaken you, and you do actually mean to participate further.

Mannahnin wrote: "Both sides do it' only matters if we're playing a game of tit-for-tat. But if the point is to get rid of the crazy and bad people, then if crazy people are on both sides of the aisle, then all of those crazy people should be criticized. That way hopefully they get thrown out of office in the next election, once their craziness is pointed out and made obvious.



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Mannahnin wrote:
Relapse wrote:The thing to remember in this is the fact that it is possible to find non Christians, liberals, OWS people, and others with similar quotes that can either be twisted, taken out of context, or in context to reveal departures from professed beliefs.


A) Well, then the first question is whether the comments are truly taken out of context. If the quotes represent their actual and consistently-espoused positions, then nothing is being twisted. The irony of the site's humor is placing the quote out of context into Jesus' mouth, but that doesn't mean the politician in question is being misrepresented. Rather their words are being contrasted with the teachings of the moral figure whom they claim to be attempting to emulate. If there is a conflict there, without the politician's words being twisted or misrepresented, then there would seem to be at least an element of hypocrisy present.



The quote in the OP is indeed out of context as I explained in an earlier post.

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I don't mean to excuse anything by saying other people do it too. It''s just that there is similar hypocrasy in all camps and it often seems to me that liberal hypocrites are lionized while conservatives recieve the main share of the bashing.
   
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Manchester, NH

CptJake wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:
Relapse wrote:The thing to remember in this is the fact that it is possible to find non Christians, liberals, OWS people, and others with similar quotes that can either be twisted, taken out of context, or in context to reveal departures from professed beliefs.


A) Well, then the first question is whether the comments are truly taken out of context. If the quotes represent their actual and consistently-espoused positions, then nothing is being twisted. The irony of the site's humor is placing the quote out of context into Jesus' mouth, but that doesn't mean the politician in question is being misrepresented. Rather their words are being contrasted with the teachings of the moral figure whom they claim to be attempting to emulate. If there is a conflict there, without the politician's words being twisted or misrepresented, then there would seem to be at least an element of hypocrisy present.


The quote in the OP is indeed out of context as I explained in an earlier post.


I appreciate that, Jake. Thanks for engaging sincerely in the discussion. I'm not sure that I agree, but I appreciate your position. Yes, he said there is a functioning safety net, and that that's not why he's concerned about them.

1) Is that a legimate line of reasoning? Is the safety net truly functioning if, for example, 1 in 5 American children do not consistently get sufficient nutritious food?
2) Even if we as a society consider the present level of hunger and poverty acceptable, do people who follow Christ's teachings feel obligated to pursue a higher standard, to feed more of the hungry, clothe more of the naked, and care for more of the sick?
3) Given the Mitt Romney supported and helped to implement comprehensive health care reform in Massachusetts, to ensure that his citizens had greater access to care, is it inconsistent for him to now espouse that the citizens of the United States as a whole do not need the same kind of access? Which position is more consistent with Christian values? When he was Governor and he helped extend coverage to more of the poor and the needy? Or now as a national candidate, when he backs away from that position and those actions?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relapse wrote:I don't mean to excuse anything by saying other people do it too. It''s just that there is similar hypocrasy in all camps and it often seems to me that liberal hypocrites are lionized while conservatives recieve the main share of the bashing.


If you see that happening, then by all means point it out. I hope I have not engaged in such actions. I don't think bad behavior by one person can ever excuse misbehavior by someone else just because they're in opposing political camps. Again, two wrongs don't make a right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 19:33:32


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CptJake wrote:

The quote in the OP is indeed out of context as I explained in an earlier post.


And You are missing the point of the site.

That being said the site provides the initial context in a direct link attached to each pic, so the original context is not being ignored and is linked.

But that is really not the point.

The point of the site is to take the words and statements of those that have claimed to be Christians and who have attempted to act as if they speak for Christ and his followers (and who have demonized and attacked others for not being so) and asking in pictoral form for the viewer to imagine if what they have said is something that Jesus would have said.

It is very clear that very often what they are saying and doing bears very little resembelence to the teachings of Christianity that they claim is their foundation and justification.

The quotes are real and unedited.

The pictoral presentation is useful to drive this point home.

So even if we want to take the original quote in the OP and claim it is out of context, what we are really looking at i s a large body of quotes that demonstrate a general anti-Christian mentality and focus, yet claiming to be rooted in Christianity. Some are so hateful and directly offensive that context is irrelevant...


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I'm gonna have to agree with mannahan, if someone says they are christian and makes hateful statemens, it is automatically assumed everyone in that religion is like that, as wrong as that is, and as untrue as that is.


also:

Spoiler:


captain fantastic wrote: Seems like this thread is all that's left of Remilia Scarlet (the poster).



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I'm gonna have to agree with mannahan, if someone says they are christian and makes hateful statemens, it is automatically assumed everyone in that religion is like that, as wrong as that is, and as untrue as that is.


I don't think that's what I wrote, sorry.

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wocka flocka rocka shocka

Mannahnin wrote:
I'm gonna have to agree with mannahan, if someone says they are christian and makes hateful statemens, it is automatically assumed everyone in that religion is like that, as wrong as that is, and as untrue as that is.


I don't think that's what I wrote, sorry.


Whose responsibilty is it to chastise a politician who claims to be a Christian but makes hateful, intolerant, and/or bigoted statements? If Christian organization do not stand up and say "that guy doesn't represent us", does that represent an implicit approval?

this is what I was agreeing on =w=

captain fantastic wrote: Seems like this thread is all that's left of Remilia Scarlet (the poster).



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...urrrr... I dunno

Relapse wrote:I don't mean to excuse anything by saying other people do it too. It''s just that there is similar hypocrasy in all camps and it often seems to me that liberal hypocrites are lionized while conservatives recieve the main share of the bashing.


Not entirely.
Winston Churchill was as Right was you would like, and he's a national hero now after years of lionising, arguably undeserved lionising too.

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