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Made in us
The Hive Mind





Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: Also, Rigeld, Str X is not a value anymore than Str PAQWHX is a value.

Unless you can find it in the STR portion of that table for me.

PAQWHX would be a value if it existed. You'd have to look up the surrounding rules to see how it's defined.

Just like the Doom of Malantai has a Strength and a Wounds value. According to you, there is no value - so the Doom is either immortal or is instantly dead.
X is absolutely a value.

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Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

rigeld2 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: Also, Rigeld, Str X is not a value anymore than Str PAQWHX is a value.

Unless you can find it in the STR portion of that table for me.

PAQWHX would be a value if it existed. You'd have to look up the surrounding rules to see how it's defined.

Just like the Doom of Malantai has a Strength and a Wounds value. According to you, there is no value - so the Doom is either immortal or is instantly dead.
X is absolutely a value.

Well Technically X is not a value, as "For all models except vehicles these characteristics are given a value of 0 to 10" P.6 Left Column, 3rd graph, 1st sentence.

This defines value as a number between 1 and 10 ( For vehicles it says its armor value can go above 10 later in the book.)

But that does not matter, as Rending only works in close combat.

CF is used before close combat, and will not rend.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: Also, Rigeld, Str X is not a value anymore than Str PAQWHX is a value.

Unless you can find it in the STR portion of that table for me.

PAQWHX would be a value if it existed. You'd have to look up the surrounding rules to see how it's defined.

Just like the Doom of Malantai has a Strength and a Wounds value. According to you, there is no value - so the Doom is either immortal or is instantly dead.
X is absolutely a value.

Well Technically X is not a value, as "For all models except vehicles these characteristics are given a value of 0 to 10" P.6 Left Column, 3rd graph, 1st sentence.

This defines value as a number between 1 and 10 ( For vehicles it says its armor value can go above 10 later in the book.)

But that does not matter, as Rending only works in close combat.

CF is used before close combat, and will not rend.


It's not that rending doesn't work outside of combat, it's that Crowe doesn't rend outside of combat. Subtle but important difference.

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Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

No you are partially wrong. Rending happens with shooting as well. Though your "before combat" statement may or may.not be true.

Who is the idiot who asked if CF was a PSA or CC attack anyway? It is obviously not a PSA.

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rigeld2 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: Also, Rigeld, Str X is not a value anymore than Str PAQWHX is a value.

Unless you can find it in the STR portion of that table for me.

PAQWHX would be a value if it existed. You'd have to look up the surrounding rules to see how it's defined.

Just like the Doom of Malantai has a Strength and a Wounds value. According to you, there is no value - so the Doom is either immortal or is instantly dead.
X is absolutely a value.


The Doom of Malan'tai has a (starting) Wound value of 4, and a special rule that equals his Strength statistic to his Wound statistic. So no, as Death Reaper explained, X is not a value, and no issues with the Doom of Malan'tai.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:It's not that rending doesn't work outside of combat, it's that Crowe doesn't rend outside of combat. Subtle but important difference.


Where did you imply this from?

   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

X, if you know algebra is a stand in for a value. I.
n the case of poison 4+ or sniper, X can be expressed as X=T. In the case of Poison 2+, X=T+2.

For Doom, X=W.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

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Made in us
The Hive Mind





Redemption wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: Also, Rigeld, Str X is not a value anymore than Str PAQWHX is a value.

Unless you can find it in the STR portion of that table for me.

PAQWHX would be a value if it existed. You'd have to look up the surrounding rules to see how it's defined.

Just like the Doom of Malantai has a Strength and a Wounds value. According to you, there is no value - so the Doom is either immortal or is instantly dead.
X is absolutely a value.


The Doom of Malan'tai has a (starting) Wound value of 4, and a special rule that equals his Strength statistic to his Wound statistic. So no, as Death Reaper explained, X is not a value, and no issues with the Doom of Malan'tai.

Thanks for the correction - I misremembered.

Regardless, even if you think my argument is weak there's only permission to turn hits into rolls to wound - do you have anything showing that Cleansing Flame is an attack that automatically hits and wounds on a 4+?

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Made in gb
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




For what it's worth, I would say 'no' because...

If a model armed with a rending Close combat weapon rolls a 6 on any of his rolls to wound in close combat


Cleansing Flame is not a Close combat 'weapon'. It may be a close combat attack, but it is not a 'weapon'.

This is the way i'd play it personally, but houserule it with your opponent or 4+ it before the start of the game.

Edit... nevermind, didn't read Crowe's special rule carefully enough... now i'm not sure, but i'd still probably go with no as Crowe/Purifiers hardly need the help of dodgy rules writing to be effective. *shrug*

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/09 16:30:05


 
   
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Chicago, IL

AlmightyWalrus wrote:It's not that rending doesn't work outside of combat, it's that Crowe doesn't rend outside of combat. Subtle but important difference.

Look at P. 42 again. Rending weapons section. It details how close combat Rending weapons work (I was talking about a CC attack. Context is everything.)

"If a model with a rending close combat weapon rolls a 6 on any of his rolls to wound IN close combat."

Notice how rending cc weapons only rend IN close combat, not outside of it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/09 16:30:47


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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The Netherlands

Deadshot wrote:X, if you know algebra is a stand in for a value. I.
n the case of poison 4+ or sniper, X can be expressed as X=T. In the case of Poison 2+, X=T+2.

For Doom, X=W.


Yes, as you are basically saying yourself, it is not a value, it is an unknown.

rigeld2 wrote:Regardless, even if you think my argument is weak there's only permission to turn hits into rolls to wound - do you have anything showing that Cleansing Flame is an attack that automatically hits and wounds on a 4+?

Well, the argument only hinges on whether or not a 'roll to Wound' is an actual game term or just any roll that results in a Wound. Normally game terms are capitalized (such as 'Wound'). And you don't require a hit to roll to Wound, as Cleansing Flame allows you to roll for a wound directly. So it's basically all arguing semantics, per usual with GW's rules.

evilbishop wrote:For what it's worth, I would say 'no' because...

If a model armed with a rending Close combat weapon rolls a 6 on any of his rolls to wound in close combat


Cleansing Flame is not a Close combat 'weapon'. It may be a close combat attack, but it is not a 'weapon'.

This is the way i'd play it personally, but houserule it with your opponent or 4+ it before the start of the game.

The problem with that bit is that the rules already break that with the plethora of ranged weapons that have the Rending rule, such as Psycannon, Assault Cannons and any type of Sniper weaponry.

But as have said before, I wouldn't play it as Rending myself; a rule called Master Swordsman shouldn't interact with attacks that don't use a sword, even if the FAQ suddenly lines these rules up. Just playing devil's advocate.

   
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The Hive Mind





Redemption wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:Regardless, even if you think my argument is weak there's only permission to turn hits into rolls to wound - do you have anything showing that Cleansing Flame is an attack that automatically hits and wounds on a 4+?

Well, the argument only hinges on whether or not a 'roll to Wound' is an actual game term or just any roll that results in a Wound. Normally game terms are capitalized (such as 'Wound'). And you don't require a hit to roll to Wound, as Cleansing Flame allows you to roll for a wound directly. So it's basically all arguing semantics, per usual with GW's rules.

It's an actual game term - see page 19.
A to wound roll (what Rending requires) is not the same thing as any die that can result in a wound - or are you asserting that plasma weapon to-hit rolls are to wound rolls, dangerous terrain checks are to wound rolls, psychic tests are to wound rolls...]

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Made in us
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Chicago, IL

Redemption wrote:
evilbishop wrote:For what it's worth, I would say 'no' because...

If a model armed with a rending Close combat weapon rolls a 6 on any of his rolls to wound in close combat


Cleansing Flame is not a Close combat 'weapon'. It may be a close combat attack, but it is not a 'weapon'.

This is the way i'd play it personally, but houserule it with your opponent or 4+ it before the start of the game.

The problem with that bit is that the rules already break that with the plethora of ranged weapons that have the Rending rule, such as Psycannon, Assault Cannons and any type of Sniper weaponry.


Ranged weapons have their own rending rules section, so ranged rending works just fine.

Rending in close combat works a bit differently.

The rules for Rending in close combat are on P.42. For Ranged Rending P.31

"If a model with a rending close combat weapon rolls a 6 on any of his rolls to wound IN close combat." P.42

Notice how rending cc weapons only rend IN close combat, not outside of it.

So Cleansing Flame does not rend because it is used before close combat, it is not used IN close combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/09 16:41:41


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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DeathReaper wrote:Ranged weapons have their own rending rules section, so ranged rending works just fine.

Ah, yes, was misremembering ranged Poisoned weapons.

   
 
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