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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 05:21:23
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
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Eventually with that many layers of paint they'd look like someone blowtorched the model enough to completely wreck ALL of the details on it.
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DT:70-S+++G++MB-IPw40k93#+++D++A+++/wWD001R+++T(T)DM+
10k 5k
- A sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the is going on.
- An ordnance specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 08:28:42
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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pretre wrote:Psienesis wrote:So, by that logic, more Xeno Codices should lead to more Xeno players, right? After all, there's definitely Ork, Tyranid and Tau fans.
There are the same number of Xenos codex as SM codex. So under this assumption, there should be an equal number of SM and Xenos players. I find that unlikely. Marine GK BA SW SM CSM DA BT Xenos DE Tyr Chaos Daemons Orks Eldar Tau Necrons Imperial IG SOB
Problem with that theory, xenos codices don't come out as frequently, and many of the races are condemned as underpowered (Tau, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons) compared to the ' OP' (I am not claiming anything, just saying many people do claim it) Grey Knights, Blood Angels, or Imperial Guard (not marines, but still imperial). If you updated the xenos regularly instead of having up to an eleven year gap between codices and put extra effort into balancing them they probably would be more popular. With marines if BA or BT or DA become underpowered one can simply repaint their army or play them as generic marines.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/06 08:29:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 08:44:13
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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What I would love to see is a CODEX ASTARTES codex that sums up all the marine chapters that dont warrant a codex, such as crimson fists and imperial fists. It would mean those players got the unique play style and rules they deserve without totally throwing out the balance of the updating of the game...as if it werent bad enough already.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 08:48:14
Subject: Re:Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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'OP' (I am not claiming anything, just saying many people do claim it) Grey Knights, Blood Angels, or Imperial Guard (not marines, but still imperial).
There's like a few people who would claim BA are actually overpowered (namely thanks to one specific person who lost alot to them), that slot goes to Space Wolves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 10:01:28
Subject: Re:Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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In 3rd ed there were tons of Index Astartes special rules for each chapter that was featured. Even ultras got special units (tyranid specialist squads). They should bring that back.
Jaon wrote:What I would love to see is a CODEX ASTARTES codex that sums up all the marine chapters that dont warrant a codex, such as crimson fists and imperial fists. It would mean those players got the unique play style and rules they deserve without totally throwing out the balance of the updating of the game...as if it werent bad enough already.
In other words bring back the Index Astartes books. Seconded.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/06 10:04:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 13:50:21
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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This pretty much the same arguement as having a Chaos Legions book. Des each legion/chapter deserve a full codex? no.
Coudl each legion have, say a couple of speical rules and a an appropritate IC without much trouble? yes.
I'm hoping the next Chaos book will be liek the 3.5 codex where a small tweak can result in you having a fluffy force.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 14:09:56
Subject: Re:Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
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ifStatement wrote:In 3rd ed there were tons of Index Astartes special rules for each chapter that was featured. Even ultras got special units (tyranid specialist squads). They should bring that back.
Jaon wrote:What I would love to see is a CODEX ASTARTES codex that sums up all the marine chapters that dont warrant a codex, such as crimson fists and imperial fists. It would mean those players got the unique play style and rules they deserve without totally throwing out the balance of the updating of the game...as if it werent bad enough already.
In other words bring back the Index Astartes books. Seconded.
^^ So. Much. THIS.
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DT:70-S+++G++MB-IPw40k93#+++D++A+++/wWD001R+++T(T)DM+
10k 5k
- A sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the is going on.
- An ordnance specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 14:18:26
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
Hatfield, PA
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Psienesis wrote:Skriker wrote:Psienesis wrote:Are there more SM Codices because there are more SM players... or are there more SM Players because there's more SM Codices?
Space Marines have always been popular. They were the first ever plastic mini set available from Citadel and have never looked back. They are the iconic face of Warhammer 40k. I think it is a mixture of both things you asked. Popularity breeds the market for more and more SM codecies, and more and more SM codecies leads to more SM armies cropping up and so on and so on in a wonderfully cyclical fashion.
Skriker
So, by that logic, more Xeno Codices should lead to more Xeno players, right? After all, there's definitely Ork, Tyranid and Tau fans.
Yes, but you are missing the point that the Space Marines are the ICONIC image face of 40k. Hence they are very popular to begin with. Adding more codecies makes it even easier for new players to get hooked on them. Orks, Tyranids and Tau are just not as popular as Marines and will likely never be. Every cover of every 40k boxed game and rulebook features space marines in some form or another. The opponents change all the time, but the space marines are *always* there. That is the big difference...
Skriker
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CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
 and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 14:20:20
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Honored Helliarch on Hypex
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actually, don't even have to slap the paint on them, just whatever flavor you feel like saying they "counts as". Red Wolves, Gray Angels, Black Scars, only real reason to pick up new models is if you like them or really want to be fluffy.
Despite my earlier statement, I don't really care about a complete codex for Ulthwe or Saim-Hain, or codex Blood Moons. I was perfectly happy with the old Craftworld book with sub types in it. I just want to be able to play a varity of list types with their own sub rules and flavors. I don't want to have to face off to orks and already know the formula they had to build their army off of. I want to be suprised that I am facing Ork Blood Axes or the Crimson Skull Wych cult.
I don't really mind that there are multiple SM codexs, I do mind that for every zenos codex that gets an update, so does a SM book. Bring all the basic dexs up to par for each edition, THEN worry about the sub lists, Then incorporate the completed ones into the NEXT main dex as sub lists in the main codex tweaked for the new version. THEN hit the sub dexs that haven't been hit last go around. Don't force any race to go entire cycles without an update or simply be released and abandoned for a decade.
Thats why forgeworld is so successful, they break up the monotany of 6 -10 year dry spells some of these dexs face. And you wonder why armies aren't popular when they are two cycles behind the flavor of the month marine and haven't seen a new mini or rule since the last summer olympics?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 14:48:16
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Do Dorn's boys deserve a codex?
Absolutely! The Codex Astartes. They are the second most strict adherents to the writings of Rowboat Girlyman outside the Ultramarines themselves.
Seriously, they are the LEAST deserving of their own book of all the legions/chapters. The Iron Hands deserve their own book more than DA/SW/BA! They are extremely divergent and get no love from GW at all.
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SickSix's Silver Skull WIP thread
My Youtube Channel
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking. = Epic First Post.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 18:52:33
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
Hatfield, PA
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SickSix wrote:Seriously, they are the LEAST deserving of their own book of all the legions/chapters. The Iron Hands deserve their own book more than DA/SW/BA! They are extremely divergent and get no love from GW at all.
Why do the Iron Hands deserve their own codex? Most of their divergence is down to fluff and them not liking weakness. The areas where they diverge has little impact on the table top. Big defining factors:
1) Hatred of weakness
2) Increased use of cybernetics (I'm doubting there is a fully automated marine army with even better marine stats on the horizon, so this is more a modeling issue than anything else)
3) Set up slightly differently at the company level with no dedicated veteran or scout company
4) Fewer terminators because they lost a lot of their terminators and veterans during the heresy when Ferrus Manus was killed on Istvaan V.
5) Use Iron Fathers instead of Chaplains.
Beyond that they are pretty much a codex astartes chapter. Nothing in that really short list requires anything that can't be done in the vanilla codex. Use a techpriest/techmarine instead of a chaplain in your list, build your models with obvious cybernetic enhancements, don't fill your elite slots with terminators. The techmarine can have support servitors from the mechanicum as well. You are done and done. Absolutely zero need for a separate Iron Hands codex.
Yeah it is neat to run a "different" chapter of space marines that no one else is using, but that doesn't mean every different chapter needs its own book.
Skriker
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CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
 and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/06 19:52:06
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Basically, you could incorporate all of the Codex-Adherent Marines into a single book, since they all have basically the same units, same FOC structure and so on... and then have a specific chapter within the main book that details Chapter-specific abilities, wargear, ICs and so forth and so on for the "canon" Chapters of the setting, allowing someone with a custom Chapter to use these things with a new name, (ie "This Chapter is a UM successor chapter, so I'm using Marneus Calgar as an HQ, but his name is Biggus Dakkus").
You could then do another SM book, following the same outline as the first, for all those non-Codex Adherent Chapters, like the Space Wolves. Each Chapter-specific section of the book might be a bit longer, since having more unusual vehicles and such will require more rules... but each of these Chapters does not need their own 100 page book.
Alternately, yes, update the non-SM books at the same time, so that Tyranid Players (for example) are not waiting ten years for a new book to allow them to be caught up with the latest edition of whatever it is the SM are using.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/07 17:11:51
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
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If GW did a single book for all Space Marines it wouldn't be as simple as people make it out to be. It'd end up as a book as thick as the core rulebook. While each chapter may not need 100 pages... each chapter would however need 50 pages. That's still 300 pages. The only way to avoid that many pages would be to water down the non-codex chapters at which point you cease to represent them in all but name.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/07 17:16:14
Subject: Re:Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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It'd end up as a book as thick as the core rulebook. While each chapter may not need 100 pages... each chapter would however need 50 pages
...Of rules? You'd have your basic squads, and than your chapter specifics.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/07 18:22:40
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
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Maybe 50 pages is a bit of exaggeration, but we're not just talking rules... each chapter has its own fluff, each chapter specific unit would have fluff and rules page and then each unit has its stats and options entry. Then on top of that you'd have the special characters and their respective pages.
For example Blood Angels: 7 special characters and 7 chapter specific units... each would have 1 page of fluff specific to the unit or character... then each would have about 1/2 of a page for stats and options... that's 21 pages.
You'd have another 3 or 4 pages explaining any army wide rules or general weapon options for units or HQ's.
Even if the Chapter specific fluff section were minimal you're talking 10 pages. At this point you're up to 35 pages. Some of the now separate chapters will require less some more, so even assuming that 35 is average you're looking at 140 pages in addition to the 144 pages in the current SM codex. This assumes none of the basic additions that GW might want to make with such a revision.
The core rulebook is only about ~275 pages with a hypothetical codex of 284 pages.
Anyone who's arguing for anything smaller isn't arguing for every other faction to get a fair shake, they're arguing against all the people who enjoys those factions. There are as many if not more Blood Angels players as there are anyone else's army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/07 19:26:17
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Screaming Shining Spear
NeoGliwice III
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aka_mythos wrote:Maybe 50 pages is a bit of exaggeration, but we're not just talking rules... each chapter has its own fluff, each chapter specific unit would have fluff and rules page and then each unit has its stats and options entry. Then on top of that you'd have the special characters and their respective pages.
And each guard army, ork clan, eldar craftworld has it's own fluff. I think that the difference between typical troop in clans / guard worlds is bigger than tac marines between some chapters.
For example Blood Angels: 7 special characters and 7 chapter specific units... each would have 1 page of fluff specific to the unit or character... then each would have about 1/2 of a page for stats and options... that's 21 pages.
How many of those characters are actually used?
How many of specific units are actually different? Or what I mean is: How many need to be different rules-wise? Can't theoretical "blood chaplain of blood with blood chalice of blood" buff rules be similar to the ones given by theoretical "just chaplain"? Especially when the said template chaplain has several different powers that can give him purpose rather than two entries in two books with stone-set purpose?
You'd have another 3 or 4 pages explaining any army wide rules or general weapon options for units or HQ's.
Even if the Chapter specific fluff section were minimal you're talking 10 pages. At this point you're up to 35 pages. Some of the now separate chapters will require less some more, so even assuming that 35 is average you're looking at 140 pages in addition to the 144 pages in the current SM codex. This assumes none of the basic additions that GW might want to make with such a revision.
As other have noted this could be done by "main space marine codex" and a second book that would allow customization of army.
Hell, if that is not acceptable you could go with just 3-4 books like "choppy marines", "shooty marines" and "mechanized/psychic/shiny/take your pick marines".
Each of those would get under it's wings several main chapters. It's definitely doable.
Right now it's 5 codeci describing one chapter and one Ultramarines + rest. Why not make 3 or 4 codeci that have rules / fluff / everything needed for several similar chapters. This way not only do you need less SM books but actually more chapters get special treatment. Right now it's all or close to nothing. Why not give everybody some love?
Anyone who's arguing for anything smaller isn't arguing for every other faction to get a fair shake, they're arguing against all the people who enjoys those factions. There are as many if not more Blood Angels players as there are anyone else's army.
Yes, but many of those players are BA players because "X chapter" can be portrayed by BA codex. Why not just go down that road and make those books more cross-chapter? I know many players would weep that they lost 5 pages of super-uninteresting fluff they don't remember / don't care about right now or units they never used, but that is just the dog in the manger.
FYI: I know this will never happen. Theoretically however, it's perfectly doable to go with less books and give more chapters more codex space. And it's not THAT hard as some players make it to be.
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Good things are good,.. so it's good
Keep our city clean.
Report your death to the Department of Expiration |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/07 20:03:59
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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aka_mythos wrote:If GW did a single book for all Space Marines it wouldn't be as simple as people make it out to be. It'd end up as a book as thick as the core rulebook. While each chapter may not need 100 pages... each chapter would however need 50 pages. That's still 300 pages. The only way to avoid that many pages would be to water down the non-codex chapters at which point you cease to represent them in all but name.
I don't see a problem with this, excepting I stick with the two-book idea for CA-adherent/ CA-Non-Adherent Chapters and then a third book for the Chaos guys. Let GW slap a $50 price tag on it ($45 for paperback) and you're done, especially if you field multiple Marine armies, you've got all your info in one place (three at most if you play Neapolitan Marines), rather than having to wait months for the updated codex for your Chromednuts Chapter to come out after redoing your SlapHappy Chapter since their codex came out last week.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/09 15:10:53
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
Hatfield, PA
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aka_mythos wrote:Maybe 50 pages is a bit of exaggeration, but we're not just talking rules... each chapter has its own fluff, each chapter specific unit would have fluff and rules page and then each unit has its stats and options entry. Then on top of that you'd have the special characters and their respective pages.
For example Blood Angels: 7 special characters and 7 chapter specific units... each would have 1 page of fluff specific to the unit or character... then each would have about 1/2 of a page for stats and options... that's 21 pages.
And that is the problem with having so many different codecies. By having a separate codex, they have to make having a separate codex worthwhile so we get a bunch of stupidly crazy chapter specific units that never appear anywhere in the fluff except in the fancy new codex. Now the next separate codex has to have at least as many unique and cool special units just for their chapter and the power curve continues to grow. White Scars don't play different because they have a ton of unique units, they play different because they load up on fast attacking bike and speeder squadrons. Dark Angels don't need any crazy and fancy unique units, just fast attack built into a raven wing and/or plenty of terminators. Blood angels didn't need any extra special units other than the death company, dreads with two close combat weapons and librarian and chaplain dreads should be available to all chapters. And so it goes. With a single codex, all the insanity goes out the window and you can do things in smaller sections.
Skriker
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CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
 and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/09 20:05:19
Subject: Do the Dorn guys deserve a codex?
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Fixture of Dakka
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aka_mythos wrote:Maybe 50 pages is a bit of exaggeration, but we're not just talking rules... each chapter has its own fluff, each chapter specific unit would have fluff and rules page and then each unit has its stats and options entry. Then on top of that you'd have the special characters and their respective pages.
Craftworld specific fluff, units, and rules sometimes gets only a sentence. Marines could manage.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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