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There was a Codex Catachans at one point (3rd ed I believe) First Codex I ever bought Still got it somewhere...

But if you wanted, you could build a very strongly themed Catachan army using the standard Guard dex. You can do the same with alot of Marine Chapters, but some have a very different "flavour" that makes them completely different from their fellows. IF/CF fit the vanilla dex perfectly. But a Blood Angel army using the vanilla dex just wouldn't "fit" IMO.

Although I do agree there are enough Marine Codexes for now. If more Codexes are to be added, I'd rather GW focused on Xenos.

blood reaper wrote:No. Don't need one, all marine chapters should be combined into one codex called: Codex Space Marines.

You're about 25 years too late on this one. It would have been a great idea when 40k was starting, but it is far too late now. There have been multiple SM codexes since 2nd edition and chances are there will continue to be.

Yea, there's enough Space Marine Codex' as it is (maybe Iron Hands should get a little lovin').

It's bad enough when Space Marine players can't stick with one of the six they have.

I really don't mind having this many SM 'dexes. You could get rid of BA I suppose since they're exceptionally similar to Vanilla Marines, But Black Templars and Space Wolves? No. Just, No. They deserve their own 'Dexes because they gave Guilliman(?) the finger and went off on their own. I don't however, Know enough about DA to comment on them.

I'm firmly in the camp that all power armoured armies can be covered in four books. Two for loyalists, two for chaos. The loyalists would have the standard vanilla book with some more options and what-not to cover all the slight variations of each chapter, and then there would be a codex deviant book for the non-standard chapters.

Chaos would have a legions book and a renegades book, which is pretty self-explanatory. Grey Knights would become an Inquisition book one again.

From a purely business perspective, it makes sense to have so many marine armies, as they sell. But from my own personal thoughts on the game and what I'd do if I could make the calls, would be to reduce the codices as above. Frankly, all the special kits for SW, BA, BT and so on, would still sell, as people would still play BA, BT, and SW armies, just with a different codex.

Then again, I also believe most factions deserve a second codex or more. Orkz could use two books, each one covering a set number of clans; Guard could use the same idea to better represent Cadians, Catachans, Mordians, Valhallans, etc,; and Eldar could have the standard codex and one for the exodites.

I also wouldn't mind an AdMech book, but that gets discussed here more often than not.

Ugh god no more space marine codex;s please. GK are the only ones who warrant having their own codex.

Trying to think off the top of my head about major deviations from the Codex:

BTs (Neophyte usage, etc. Not too familiar with them as I've never seen them, but they don't use codex organisation for their squads)

SWs (Furries. We don't want them within so much as a kilometre of a vanilla codex)

White Scars (on bikes... but C:SM lets you do this, so redundant)

Grey Knights (Lol)


I can't think of any other notable Marine chapters that deviate significantly from the codex in fluff terms.


The two that shouldn't have codices:

BAs (old flavour) - They've been overhauled I guess with all their unique nippley goodness, but, really, in traditional fluff they were just a codex chapter that was prone to the occasional bouts of rage-induced insanity.

DAs - They are Codex barring their first and second companies. Belial and Sammael in C:SM with rules that allowed you to take Terminators and Bikes as troops respectively, as well as upgrade bikes with teleport homers, would effectively transplant the Codex in my opinion. I think it's rational that GW do this, but, tbh, they will probably just butcher them like they did the BAs and give them something almost as horrendous as nipples.

Harriticus wrote:Ugh god no more space marine codex;s please. GK are the only ones who warrant having their own codex.

Which is why their Codex is padded out with all the Witch Hunter stuff hmm?

Yes, one Codex could rule them all, but it's been a multi-SM Codex game since 2nd, it's not going to change now. Besides, that Codex would have to be a massively complex tome to allow for all the variation or incure the wrath of the internets.

Fact is, all the original Legion chapters could lay claim to justifying a codex of their own, sufficiently developed they could easily move on from "they're just Ultras in X colour armour" Unfortuantely, I don't think it will happen from the point of view of variety and interest, but from the point of view of game balance, this is a good thing. More factions will make balance harder, and 40k does not need to get any vaguer or more unabalanced!

there is only one space marine chapter I would actually enjoy getting a codex. And that would be the Iron Hands. Other than that, BT and DA should be rolled up into a Codex. Make them have special characters and/or HQ's that allow you to have access to their special units/play styles/rules.

ShatteredBlade wrote:there is only one space marine chapter I would actually enjoy getting a codex. And that would be the Iron Hands. Other than that, BT and DA should be rolled up into a Codex. Make them have special characters and/or HQ's that allow you to have access to their special units/play styles/rules.

"Codex: Those Mopey Guys in the Robes"?

I kid, I kid.

azreal13 wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Ugh god no more space marine codex;s please. GK are the only ones who warrant having their own codex.

Which is why their Codex is padded out with all the Witch Hunter stuff hmm?

Yes, one Codex could rule them all, but it's been a multi-SM Codex game since 2nd, it's not going to change now. Besides, that Codex would have to be a massively complex tome to allow for all the variation or incure the wrath of the internets.

Fact is, all the original Legion chapters could lay claim to justifying a codex of their own, sufficiently developed they could easily move on from "they're just Ultras in X colour armour" Unfortuantely, I don't think it will happen from the point of view of variety and interest, but from the point of view of game balance, this is a good thing. More factions will make balance harder, and 40k does not need to get any vaguer or more unabalanced!

2 or 3 units of things I wouldn't really call padding especially when they had access to the majority of that in some prior. For GK that was just a thematic realignment away from emphasizing the inquisition in Codex Daemonhunter.

I don't believe one codex for all space marines would be a good idea, unless it was 200 pages. Look at every other faction and how devoid of flavorful subfactions they've become, that's what C:SM would be like, if it went to a single book.

People have it backwards... a lot of things deserve codices, but very few deserve it enough more than the rest. Another way to think of it every race should have another 2 or 3 codices and like them the Imperium as many more as characterfully possible. Insisting on a consolidated marines book is insisting on the same unfair treatment, rather than insisting on a fairer treatment of everyone.

The merits on if something deserves its own codex is independent on if other things deserve their own codex or even if Loyalists "need" another one. On the question of if Imperial Fists and their successors deserve their own codex?-Its really comes down to IF they can creatively be expanded upon enough as to be distinctive in playing style from the rest.

aka_mythos wrote:

azreal13 wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Ugh god no more space marine codex;s please. GK are the only ones who warrant having their own codex.

Which is why their Codex is padded out with all the Witch Hunter stuff hmm?

Yes, one Codex could rule them all, but it's been a multi-SM Codex game since 2nd, it's not going to change now. Besides, that Codex would have to be a massively complex tome to allow for all the variation or incure the wrath of the internets.

Fact is, all the original Legion chapters could lay claim to justifying a codex of their own, sufficiently developed they could easily move on from "they're just Ultras in X colour armour" Unfortuantely, I don't think it will happen from the point of view of variety and interest, but from the point of view of game balance, this is a good thing. More factions will make balance harder, and 40k does not need to get any vaguer or more unabalanced!

2 or 3 units of things I wouldn't really call padding especially when they had access to the majority of that in some prior. For GK that was just a thematic realignment away from emphasizing the inquisition in Codex Daemonhunter.

I don't believe one codex for all space marines would be a good idea, unless it was 200 pages. Look at every other faction and how devoid of flavorful subfactions they've become, that's what C:SM would be like, if it went to a single book.

People have it backwards... a lot of things deserve codices, but very few deserve it enough more than the rest. Another way to think of it every race should have another 2 or 3 codices and like them the Imperium as many more as characterfully possible. Insisting on a consolidated marines book is insisting on the same unfair treatment, rather than insisting on a fairer treatment of everyone.

The merits on if something deserves its own codex is independent on if other things deserve their own codex or even if Loyalists "need" another one. On the question of if Imperial Fists and their successors deserve their own codex?-Its really comes down to IF they can creatively be expanded upon enough as to be distinctive in playing style from the rest.

This. A thousand times, this. I honestly don't understand why people want the space marine books to be smashed into one. They are different. Your excuses of "They're just marines!!!!!" is terrible. In that case, Eldar and Tau should be the same book, as they are both xenos races who favor 4+ armor saves, S3, T3 and "advanced" weaponry. Oh! and Necrons favor a 4+ armor save too, so we can throw them in there as "elites" (Obviously this is a sarcastic statement and should not be taken seriously for many, many reasons).
If anything games workshop should pull their head out of their ass and stop insisting that they are a "modeling" company, which the game is just a side note for. I don't know about you folks, but I sure as hell don't know more modelers than I do gamers. Maybe it's just me. They should at least look into the possibility of a refocus, putting more of their finances into their gaming department and release codex' more regularly and for more races. I am of the same belief as Mythos, each race SHOULD have multiple codex, not that marines should be punished like everyone else.

To all Haters, we have our own dex and its going to get better soon, so off- Azrael

The Sm dexes shouldn't be rolled up because it is a way to allow each chapter to tell a story about who they are. So lets have Codex: RG IH IF, at the same time we couldn't go amiss with codex: Iyanden, Ulthwe, Alaitoc and whoever else you want. or by dividing up the orks a little, or the tau.

But since we can't have those things lets just have an attribute system in the major codicies (SM, orks, tau eldar, chaos) that allows you to differntiate your army.

Ohh and LEAVE MY DA DEX ALONE WE ARE DIFFERNET ITS JUST THE CODEX THAT IS NOT

Whilst obviously some chapters (BT and SW etc) are unique enough to have their own codex which they NEED and as good as it would be to have more chapter codexes, the game is already quite Imperium heavy and too many more SM codexes would only add to this. I suppose you could counter this with individual chaos legion codexes but then the xenos miss out.

I certainly hate the idea of having one SM codex but having every chapter seperate simply isn't viable so as much as we might dislike the current system it is probably best.

This may be a bit of a side issue...but if you want something to have its own codex, shouldn't you start by knowing the NAME of the chapter? And not just "those Dorn guys"?

I think he was just trying to be cute in saying its not just Imperial Fist, but Crimson Fist and the rest.

There are far too many Imperium books to begin with.

Diabolical13 wrote:I mean we have a blood angels codex,a DA and SW one why not give some for us Dorn guys?

White scars could pretty use one too with unique biker units. As for rules on the Dorn chapters (CF and IF and other secondary chapters), they could have power fists and not have the initiative penalty or something like that,a fists cannon perhaps too? lol

Well just wanted to share my thoughts with you guys about this.

I just don't understand why all of the different marine chapters need separate books. No other force gets that, so why marines. The only reason apparently is so that they can add a bunch of crazy rules exceptions to the rules for each chapter. What a waste. You could field any of the various chapters from 1 book with special characters turning different units into troops. For example, One DA character could give them access to terminators as troops and another to Fast attack as troops. Without having to make yet another book that is poorly written and full of rules exceptions just to try and make people want to play them. They did a decent job of that, I thought, a couple codex books back. Could pick strengths and abilities for your marines to make them specifically the kind of force you wanted to play. I was drawn into making my first full marine army then. I just imagine how many other forces we could have in the game if there wasn't so much time spent basically rewriting the space marine codex specifically for different chapters. :(

Skriker

Dark Angels are not really that different, you could have 1-2 special chapter masters that give them the speeders and terminator things.

Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Templars are all so insanely different they need their own. Way different units, tactics, and units.

Larger flexible codex's are much nicer then small rigid ones for players anyway.

I'm both looking forward to, and dreading the day they adopt the web 2.0 format as many games have begun fostering.

will mean more content, more fluff, faster rules changes, more community involvement. It also tends to breed laxness, and it really shortens the production schedule at least as far as rules goes, and encourages pirating and taking a hands off approach to local scenes. Though if GW made it's audience feel a little more looked after I bet they wouldn't have much to worry about.

We'd have light rules adaptations for stuff like a dornian special unit for those armies, a iron hand's minidex, more mini games and way quicker competitive rulings and adjustments to published material. We'd also be giving up quite a bit, and there are other far reaching consequences like what happened to poor dungeons and dragons. I'm much too caffeinated at the moment to think about that though.

It would be super cute if they through in a section at the end of the black templars book about some special ways to fist.

We'd also be giving up quite a bit, and there are other far reaching consequences like what happened to poor dungeons and dragons.

You mean besides the fact they changed their setting so much that they killed off quite a few things, decreased others, and the only thing it gained as a result was a fairer combat system?

They are still well selling though,

Dark Angels are not really that different, you could have 1-2 special chapter masters that give them the speeders and terminator things.

The only reason they aren't that different is because codex: Vanilla seems to grab everything from them after they have it.

I'm genuinely curious here; for those who are for SW, BA, etc. keeping their own codices because they're so different and stuff, also believe that the Eldar, Guard, Chaos, and Orkz also deserve another codex or two each because they have such a variety of playstyles?

Blacksails wrote:I'm genuinely curious here; for those who are for SW, BA, etc. keeping their own codices because they're so different and stuff, also believe that the Eldar, Guard, Chaos, and Orkz also deserve another codex or two each because they have such a variety of playstyles?

I believe in them, I even still have the old Feral Ork list, along with the old harlequin and the craft worlds book, along with the old legal blood axes list for orks.

Chaos should be about three to four honestly, you've got Chaos Daemons (of course), Chaos Legions, Lost and the damned (the traitors, mutants, and other such things that are far more common), and Renegades. Though I am still believing that chaos daemons should be allowed to be ally listed into each of them.

I think space marine books would be great if they at least TRIED to play a little different from each other.

Vanilla book. Jack of all trades but doesn't excel at any one.
Blood Angels. Fast assault based army.
Dark Angels. Elite, small numbers.
Space Wolves. Ranged list combining heavy weapons and psychic powers.
Black Templars. Horde based marines.
And finally Grey Knights which should focus on having "the best marines" but filling in your army with inquisition.

That way you take the 6 marine books, try to keep their theme so that they have seperate playstyles. Right now however you have what equates to 5 marines books all taking their minimum troop choice, their best assault terminator loadout and then filling in the rest with heavy support in the form of predators/vindicators or in the special exception of space wolves long fangs.

That is what bugs me the most about there being 6 marine books. It doesn't matter than I am playing the vanilla book or the blood angels or the black templars or the grey knights. Their army list all looks the same with 2 units of tacticals an assault unit or two and some dakka preds.

The grey knight codex in particular annoys me because it literally took that exact formula for making a list and just said "make it better" so now their preds hit harder and their tacticals are "omg amazing tacticals" aka purifiers.

The only variation I ever see from this formula are the various "we stole this idea from dark angels" wing lists. Templar Terminator spam (I am guilty of running this list even) Deathwing, Logan wing, Draigo wing.

But it is gamesworkshops own fault. They give a cool toy to a marine book so people have a reason to buy it over keeping their own marines. But then they throw it into the next book as well.

If marine books ever get to the point where when someone asks for advice against one book, the answer isn't the same as beating all the others. I will be completely content with there being 6 marine books. Until then the absolute last thing I want for this hobby is GW to add another marine book into the mix.

(P.S. my "playstyle" for each codex is nothing more than an example. It is not a statement on how the different books should be made.)

3 SM Codices... 1) "Codex-Adherent Chapters", 2) "Not Codex-Adherent Chapters", 3) "Spiky Marines"

That covers all flavors of Space Marines, good, bad and ugly.

Psienesis wrote:3 SM Codices... 1) "Codex-Adherent Chapters", 2) "Not Codex-Adherent Chapters", 3) "Spiky Marines"

That covers all flavors of Space Marines, good, bad and ugly.

4)Alpha Legion. The only ones that actually deserve a codex of their own.

I think every race deserves as many codices as their fluff allows for distinctive playstyles. Orks and Eldar used to have many sub-faction lists, those deserve separate codices just like the different SM's do. NO ONE deserves less, they all deserve more.

Durza wrote:

Psienesis wrote:3 SM Codices... 1) "Codex-Adherent Chapters", 2) "Not Codex-Adherent Chapters", 3) "Spiky Marines"

That covers all flavors of Space Marines, good, bad and ugly.

4)Alpha Legion. The only ones that actually deserve a codex of their own.

Yes because there's no vast difference between the four mono god legions!

There are already enough army books for 40k as it is, and with all the issues that come along with codex creep we end up having players who still play outdated armies get put farther and farther on the back burner. Why should players have to wait any longer for their codex, so that GW can release more marine content?

The problem isn't that there's too many codices, it's that GW works on them too slowly or changes the rules too quickly. They could either:
1) Continue bringing out codices of the same quality at about twice the speed (which wouldn't really be that hard) so that every army gets one every edition.
2) Work out a system to balance the codices so that old ones are still competitive.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Durza wrote:

Psienesis wrote:3 SM Codices... 1) "Codex-Adherent Chapters", 2) "Not Codex-Adherent Chapters", 3) "Spiky Marines"

That covers all flavors of Space Marines, good, bad and ugly.

4)Alpha Legion. The only ones that actually deserve a codex of their own.

Yes because there's no vast difference between the four mono god legions!

If they make a book for the god worshippers, then the mono god legion, Black Legion and Word Bearers could all be adequately covered in it. However, the Night Lords and Iron Warriors should work off a different mechanic, since they use daemons as tools and don't worship the gods, and the Alpha Legion use different tactics to any space marine army. Even a codex for the three non-worshipping legions could be good enough.