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I view the military establishments of the Imperium as altogether separate; hell the Navy and the Imperial Guard are effectively segregated by legislation.

I think that when it comes down to battlefield cooperation and command, they should operate as separate entities as far as possible; a commander of a Space Marine strike force need only concern himself with the small area in which he is operating and his objective; his obligation is only to inform/alert Guard forces as to his intentions and movements. I would imagine that Marines can make requests of the Guard, which they will almost certainly adhere to out of respect, but there is no formal structure for dealing with this.

As for Sisters/Imperial Guard - again, separate entities under separate command structures. I'm sure there'd be a level of mutual respect and perhaps an informal integration in a war council; with respect given to any experienced canonness, but I can't see integration beyond that.

Navy/Guard? Well we know that they have Officers of the Fleet to help coordinate supporting actions, but I don't think one can overrule the other.

Space Marines are known to take command of entire warzones. Like Dante at Armegeddon. So a skilled Cannonness shouldn't be treated less fairly, as she could take command if the situation dictates it. Again Lynata wrote an excellent piece detailing things there.

I don't know about the SOB and their ships, but they are basically divided in two.

The IG and IN had to separate as then 3 million renegade soldiers were a huge problem as they could rampage through dozens of planets due to their ships, while now they are less of a problem as they are landlocked.

Beaviz81 wrote:Space Marines are known to take command of entire warzones. Like Dante at Armegeddon. So a skilled Cannonness shouldn't be treated less fairly, as she could take command if the situation dictates it. Again Lynata wrote an excellent piece detailing things there.

There is a huge difference between the oldest living Astartes, not in a Dreadnought, and a "skilled Canoness". Dante is a living link to the glorious past of the Imperium, who has proven himself time and time again. Plus Dante was given command of all the Astartes in that warzone, not the entire warzone.

Astartes taking command is far, far, far more acceptable at any rate simply because they are known for their tactical acumen. Even Chapters like the Space Wolves, who are considered by us outside the fourth wall as frothing, bearded madmen waving swords, are quite capable when it comes to the grasp of tactics. There's a reason that Logan Grimnar was ceded overall 'command' of the Astartes forces at the Cadian Gate during the 13th Black Crusade.

Oh yeah, so you disregard that every Canonness is a veteran of hundreds of battle, and with a certain tactical acumen. Sorry for me they are just the second best, but you should probably discuss the matter more closely with Lynata and Melissia as they know far more about this than me.

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh yeah, so you disregard that every Canonness is a veteran of hundreds of battle, and with a certain tactical acumen. Sorry for me they are just the second best, but you should probably discuss the matter more closely with Lynata and Melissia as they know far more about this than me.

There's no reason to believe that your average Canonness is going to be any better a tactician than your average (competent) Imperial Guard commander. In fact an IG commander is likely to be better at generalship simply because he commands a much more numerous force on a casual basis, whereas the canonness would usually only lead the order. That and the IG commander is less likely to forget about a mission's objectives in order to kill more heretics.

Frankly, depending on the Chapter, Astarte commander's are in a different field. Centuries of experience in a command role is better than decades of experience.

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh yeah, so you disregard that every Canonness is a veteran of hundreds of battle, and with a certain tactical acumen.

"Every Canoness" is not a veteran of hundreds of battles with a "certain tactical acumen". There certainly are some who will meet those standards, but just like the fact that not every Guard Commander is Creed not every Canoness will meet the requirements you set forth.

Sorry for me they are just the second best, but you should probably discuss the matter more closely with Lynata and Melissia as they know far more about this than me.

I've had this discussion with them before, but it always comes down to us being able to recognize there is no arbitrary ranking system of "1, 2, 3". Each force has different strengths and weaknesses, and to rank them is to instill an artificial set of circumstances in which they each would perform to the 'best' of their strengths whilst ignoring their weaknesses.

It's essentially "Deadliest Warrior: 40k" and it needs to stop.

Most Guard-commanders are not incompetents. Unfortunately they get the most attention. But a SOB who is a great warrior, without the tactical acumen, usually is stuck in the bodyguard-role, or seconded to another order in order to utilize her talents as f.ex. an angry nurse.

Yeah I guess so, I should just undo it.

re ships:

I was kindly given this titbit previously:

Battlefleet Gothic

The major Orders Militant are primarily a mobile strike force, deployed against threats to Imperial security and purity as and when the need arises. Though the Ministorum maintains no warships or regimental transports, relying on the Imperial Navy for protection from space-borne foes, each Order operates a fleet of transport craft, ranging from single-detachment troopships to high speed corvettes. In lieu of the capability to engage in full-scale fleet actions, the Sororitas' ships are engineered for maximum speed through the warp, allowing the Orders to deploy their troops anywhere in the Imperium.

The longest deployment distance, all other factors being equal, is the Eastern Fringe beyond Kar Duniash and Okassis, which the major Orders can reach in eight weeks. However the small size and purely defensive weaponry of these craft require the Sisterhood to seek assistance from the Imperial Navy in cases where large-scale deployment is required, or when troopships are likely to come under attack from hostile forces.

In an effort to force the disbanding of the transport fleets and make the Ministorum entirely reliant on the Navy for transport, the Imperial Navy has officially protested Sororitas transports carrying weapons at all. The Navy is however, unwilling to propose outlawing weaponry on all non-Navy vessels as this would increase the need for Navy vessels to protect civilian freighters to unsustainable levels.

Indeed I am presently converting a model to be a BFG Sisters transport corvette

re command - I think we all agree that there will be ocassions that in conflicts large or small, a Sister may take feel she has to take (or is even asked) command - but its not very common and controlling large scale engagements will be even more unusual as normally there will be someone better suited thus leaving the canoness to use her dedicated force more effectively as she wills. Thats not to say it ddoes not happen - there are examples previously cited in this thread. Smaller engagements where a senior sister takes control over other Imperial Guard, PDf or Militia units whose officers are dead are lack zeal makes more sense I feel?

Its a bit like many Inquisitors won't have the experience or knowledge to command armies and fleets, even if they have the power to do so.........Often I think the Sisterhood is there in small numbers to protect a item (relic etc), person or site rather fight a war.

I guess Crusades of Faith may be the big exception as they will likely be by far the most effective and experienced combatants?

The Astartes are often uncomfortable commanding non Marines for various reasons................

Kanluwen wrote:
I've had this discussion with them before, but it always comes down to us being able to recognize there is no arbitrary ranking system of "1, 2, 3". Each force has different strengths and weaknesses, and to rank them is to instill an artificial set of circumstances in which they each would perform to the 'best' of their strengths whilst ignoring their weaknesses.

It's essentially "Deadliest Warrior: 40k" and it needs to stop.

What care the Emperor for the color of the Hammer, so long as it accomplishes its goal?

Hazardous Harry wrote:In Faith and Fire it shows a Repentia taking a (somewhat sombre) moment to identify whether a crew member was a traitor or friend before dismembering him.

The PDF guy? As I recall, his fate was determined the moment the Repentia encountered him - they just took a moment to pray for his soul before chopping him apart. Quite a creepy moment there, yet exemplifying their mindset well, in my opinion!

What few people know, by the way, is that there was a sort of "Proto-Repentia" in an early issue of the Citadel Magazine, way before she even had her own miniature. Back then, she was a lone warrior seeking atonement on the field of battle without a Mistress to guide her, or even fellow Repentia to augment her righteous fury. An interesting concept, and an idea some might prefer to how they actually ended up in the Codex.
The Proto-Repentia had a fairly cool fluff text about how one saved a Guardsman's life but vanished again as quickly as she came. I can post it here after getting back home, if anyone is interested.

Personally, I agree that one or two Sisters Hospitaller are the most convenient means to represent Sororitas assistance mingling with individual squads, unless one were to employ the aforementioned "battlefield chaos" approach.

Mr Morden wrote:I think we all agree that there will be ocassions that in conflicts large or small, a Sister may take feel she has to take (or is even asked) command - but its not very common and controlling large scale engagements will be even more unusual as normally there will be someone better suited thus leaving the canoness to use her dedicated force more effectively as she wills. Thats not to say it ddoes not happen - there are examples previously cited in this thread. Smaller engagements where a senior sister takes control over other Imperial Guard, PDf or Militia units whose officers are dead are lack zeal makes more sense I feel?

Aye, that's how I think it would work. Aside from being the vague middle ground 40k fluff is so famous for, it also fits to the representations in the (studio) material thus far available. In the Third War for Armageddon, for example, Canoness Carmina was given command of some Hive Militias, yet was still subordinate to General Kurov and, of course, Commissar Yarrick who was the War Council's appointed leader.

It is my understanding that in most major conflicts that will see multiple arms of the Imperium's military forces operate alongside, a War Council will be established as a means to coordinate their efforts. Usually the Canoness will be expected to defer to its leaders, whilst at some times a Canoness - just like that certain Commissar - may even be called to lead it if her experience uniquely qualifies her for the job. Most often, though, I'd expect her to perform in this role during purely Ecclesiarchal endeavours assisted by Guard and/or Navy forces rather than true "All-Imperial" crusades.

Mr Morden wrote:Indeed I am presently converting a model to be a BFG Sisters transport corvette

Post pics when you're done!

Oh I would like to read it Lynata, as I'm fairly interested in the angry nuns. They are getting more interesting by the hour for me.

Initial Corvette pics here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/446645.page#4221313

Wow cool, Corvette, looks forward watching it all done.

thanks you might like my Assault transport here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/446597.page

@ Lynata - which issue of the journal was it in?

Citadel Journal issue #49 - the same one that had the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force and the SoB/Ecclesiarchy special characters. Here's just the fluff text and the short story:

Inspired by John Blanche's Sister Repentia piece in the Inquisitor Sketchbook, and by Gav Thorpe's background description of her, Andy Hoare presents a new army list entry for Sisters of Battle, Space Marine and Imperial Guard armies.

A member of the Sisterhood may be stripped of all rank and rights, reduced to a Sister Repentia. They are banned from Holy Service and may suffer other castigations in the form of frequent physical punishment, enforced fasts and confinement. These individuals often attach themselves to Imperial crusades, throwing themselves into the thickest of fighting in an effort to purge themselves of their sins and gain absolution - even if it is only granted on their death.

The Sister Repentia is a new troop type available to Sisters of Battle players as part of their Priestly Delegation, and to Space Marine and Imperial Guard players in the same way as Preachers.

[...]

"We were stationed at the western quadrant of the Belisarius warzone; a small piece of Emperor-forsaken hell that we'd held for three months before the rebels' main force hit.

We opened fire on them with everything we had, from laspistol to battlecannon. We must have slaughtered thousands, but they weren't even slowed. Emperor forgive me, but I know for a fact no Imperial Guardsman could have completed that charge. They were on us in minutes, and close up I could see from the expressionless look on their faces that something was seriously wrong. They fought like animals, and we soon found ourselves cut off from the company. My squad was cut down man by man; men I had known since the regiment's founding and served alongside in four campaigns. The rebels slashed with bayonets and clawed at us with bare hands. Soon, I was the last man standing and the rebels advanced towards me over the dismembered bodies of my comrades.

I raised my lasgun, but just as I was about to open fire, a figure leapt down from the barricade and threw itself at my attackers. I could make out little of the newcomer other than the remnants of what I took was Adepta Sororitas armour. The rebels surrounded her and I hesitated, unsure whether I should join the fray. Then a break in the combat appeared, and the figure stared back at me. She was a vision, holy purpose burning in her eyes. I saw the tattered remains of her battle sisters power armour, covered in penitent vows and purity seals. I knew in that instant that she bade me to make good my escape, that I may live another day in the Emperor's service.

Then the moment passed and I turned my back on the combat. One month later we retook the trench line and I sought out the scene of the attack. There I found a heap of dead rebels, but of my unknown ally, no trace."

-- Extract of the accused's confession, submitted to Commissar General Luft in the Court Marshal of Corporal Chemski, J / 4th Terran Praefects / GK983 833830

Beaviz81 wrote:They are getting more interesting by the hour for me.

Glad to hear!

There was a lot of cool stuff written about them, even if much of it is hard to find and scattered all over the place, such as various issues of White Dwarf.
But maybe you'll also like GW's old Armageddon 3 campaign website - it is still accessible via the Wayback Machine:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021005045643/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/imp_forces.html
(I recommend the entries on the two Sororitas Orders as well as the Flesh Tearers Chapter and the Fire Wastes combat zone)

Mr Morden wrote:
Initial Corvette pics here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/446645.page#4221313

Looking good! What colours do you have in mind?
And lol @ that giant purity seal. Part of me thinks they'd actually do this - a thousand faithful spending their entire life working on a giant piece of scripture to be penned onto a starship's hull. Yep, sounds like 40k!

Nice work, Mr Morden.

I read about the Fire Wastes, the two orders of Sororitas and the Flesh Tearers Lynata. It was a good read. I also found that that hadn't been the first time the Order of the Argent Shroud have butted heads with a Blood Angel-descendant.

They had persecuted the Angels Vermillion for unclear reasons prior to the Third war for Armageddon, and it's hinted to in your quotes where Cannonness Carmina mouths off about the instability in the BA-geneseed, due to what her precursor Cannonness Dissentia did to the Angels Vermillion.

At a personal viewpoint it was too bad Carmina didn't follow in the tracks of Dissentia, and exterminated the Flesh Tearers. But then again that's me.