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Yes I think I got my wires crossed in that I took the wrong meaning from your post. The quote I quoted;

Kanluwen wrote:Wrong. They are not "being grown for just that purpose". That is speculative on the part of the fanbase. They're not like the Grand Army of the Republic, with clones being grown en masse to go into combat.

I took to imply that you were saying they're not just being raised to join the Death Korp, which they blatantly are, which is what my post was about. I took that meaning from your post because you then went on to say this;

Kanluwen wrote:Much like the Cadians, the Krieg fight each other for the chance to be actually recruited.

Well, they exist solely to join the Death Korps, which is why they have universal conscription, and if you don't make it into the Death Korps it's because you're either a) dead (either through the eugenics policy or just not able to survive, literally, the training) or b) deemed to be suitable to fulfil another position which will aid Krieg in raising it's vast Siege regiments in large numbers. Those who are part of option B might not like it BUT they do as they are told.

I don't think for one moment that the vitae-womb is cloning, not for one moment. If Forgeworld or Games Workshop came out and said "Guys... it -is- cloning" then we'd obviously be proved wrong, but I think the vitae-womb, whatever it is, would fit suitably with the atmosphere surrounding Krieg - grim, dark, faceless, almost inhuman.

Good grief, 4 edits. Anyway, last bit;

Kanluwen wrote:I said he is wrong because of the idea of the Krieg troops being "grown simply for that purpose", as that implies that they are being cloned.

Might to you but their being 'grown' to join the Death Korp could have many meanings - vitae-womb might accelerate the gestation period, might mean that by the time the 'child' is born it's already comparatively several years old in terms of physical state. We don't know but because something is 'grown for a purpose' does not mean it's cloning.

A commissar executing troopers for flimsy reason is actually not really canon, and a sufferer from psychosis, and is like spree-killers. That's actually a bit stupid to read unless you are out for a laugh.

Buttons wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:It Cadian Karshkin. Not Storm Troopers. Storm Troopers are great, Karshkin is marginally better. They are the third best fighters in the IOM.

bs. Do you have a source that flat out states "Kasrkin are better than storm troopers"?

"Codex: Eye of Terror", most notably.

Kasrkin are just Cadian Storm Troopers, nothing more, nothing less.

This isn't strictly true. I'll expand upon this though.

Yes, one should be intimidated by Kasrkin, but one should also be intimidated by regular storm troopers since they are the same thing.

They're not.
The basic jist of it is this:
The training regime that the Cadians use for the Kasrkin is based off of the Schola Progenium's training regime for the Imperial Stormtroopers...but it is amped up to 11 for the Kasrkin.
The equipment might be the same, but the training and experience of the individuals when they receive the training in question is not the same.
An individual, by the time they are going to be selected for the training that Kasrkin undergo is going to be roughly 17-18.
That individual will have been actively engaged in combat since about age 13, with live fire engagements being their training regime since age 8 or 9.
That is roughly 5 years of active combat service with 4 years of grueling training conditions that would be considered barbaric by today's standards as the basis for their service. Members of the Whiteshields are commonly killed in training accidents, as live ammunition is used.

For the Imperial Stormtroopers, they are trained and it is considered to be an "investment" of sorts for their training. They are not exposed to hazardous conditions until after their training, requiring some combat experience(I've guesstimated about ~2-3 years or thereabouts of service in the rank and file of the Guard) before they are elevated to a Stormtrooper Company.

That's out of the way, now I can continue a bit more.
Kasrkin and Stormtroopers are not going to be filling the same roles on the battlefield, necessarily.
Stormtroopers are considered, at least now, to be more of a group of "special forces" styled soldiery. They perform the dirty jobs such as sabotage, assassination, and forward fire observation.
Kasrkin are able to fill the same roles...but where they really shine is as the spearhead of an assault. They're the lads who kick in a breach in the enemy's line, and hold it open for the Shock Troopers to follow in. They also tend to be found at the center of a defensive action, where the fighting is thickest.

Also, did Eisenhorn ever see generic storm troopers?

Considering he's an Inquisitor, and he served for quite a long time--it's safe to say yes, he has. We might not have an exact date as to when he did so, but he had a working relationship with the Imperial Guard and was raised in the care of the Schola Progenium so there's two very, very likely places where he encountered them.

It is like comparing an Ultramarine to a Blood Angel, neither is inherently superior to the other.

It's not. It's like comparing a Veteran Astartes to a newly inducted Scout. You can broadly paint them with the brush of "Astartes", but when you get into the nitty gritty of it

Buttons wrote:
Except they are drafted, if you were a Cadian and they told you you are going to be sent away to fight in the Imperial Guard you have to go. If you refuse they would probably just shoot you. A darfted army means one doesn't get a choice, and Cadians do not get a choice, they might go to the Interior Guard if you are lucky, or be a Kasrkin if you are good, but you cannot decide to not fight.

Irrelevant.

The idea that they could "refuse" is not going to occur to a Cadian. They are raised with the aspiration to join the Imperial Guard.
"Cadian Blood" has a good example of this in the mentality of the psyker assigned to the regiment, Seth.

Kanluwen wrote:I said he is wrong because of the idea of the Krieg troops being "grown simply for that purpose", as that implies that they are being cloned.

Might to you but their being 'grown' to join the Death Korp could have many meanings - vitae-womb might accelerate the gestation period, might mean that by the time the 'child' is born it's already comparatively several years old in terms of physical state. We don't know but because something is 'grown for a purpose' does not mean it's cloning.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Yes I think I got my wires crossed in that I took the wrong meaning from your post. The quote I quoted;

That's okay. It happens.

Kanluwen wrote:Wrong. They are not "being grown for just that purpose". That is speculative on the part of the fanbase. They're not like the Grand Army of the Republic, with clones being grown en masse to go into combat.

I took to imply that you were saying they're not just being raised to join the Death Korp, which they blatantly are, which is what my post was about. I took that meaning from your post because you then went on to say this;

Kanluwen wrote:Much like the Cadians, the Krieg fight each other for the chance to be actually recruited.

Well, they exist solely to join the Death Korps, which is why they have universal conscription, and if you don't make it into the Death Korps it's because you're either a) dead (either through the eugenics policy or just not able to survive, literally, the training) or b) deemed to be suitable to fulfil another position which will aid Krieg in raising it's vast Siege regiments in large numbers. Those who are part of option B might not like it BUT they do as they are told.

I don't think for one moment that the vitae-womb is cloning, not for one moment. If Forgeworld or Games Workshop came out and said "Guys... it -is- cloning" then we'd obviously be proved wrong, but I think the vitae-womb, whatever it is, would fit suitably with the atmosphere surrounding Krieg - grim, dark, faceless, almost inhuman.

Excellent. Another supporter for my Axlotl Tank theory?

I can certainly see how you'd misinterpret it as I did start off one specific way with the Cadians, and wasn't as in-depth for the Krieg.
Personally, that's because I just don't find the Krieg that interesting. I'm far more interested in Cadia...but I think that's obvious by now.

Kanluwen wrote:I said he is wrong because of the idea of the Krieg troops being "grown simply for that purpose", as that implies that they are being cloned.

Might to you but their being 'grown' to join the Death Korp could have many meanings - vitae-womb might accelerate the gestation period, might mean that by the time the 'child' is born it's already comparatively several years old in terms of physical state. We don't know but because something is 'grown for a purpose' does not mean it's cloning.

Personally...

I've got an inkling that the vitae-womb is not really "accelerating the gestation period", but rather ensuring that multiple offspring are birthed in each gestation period.

You're confusing and conflating what Kasrkin and Storm Troopers do. While Storm Troopers do participate in SOGgy operations, they are also used as the spearhead of assaults, shock troops, heavy infantry, and all of these other, brutal roles that the Kasrkin do.

A Kasrkin really is just a Cadian Storm Trooper. Though there seems to be a lot more Kasrkin than there are Storm Troopers, since the Kasrkin seem to be found all over the damned place, while there's but a single Storm Trooper regiment.

Kanluwen wrote:I've got an inkling that the vitae-womb is not really "accelerating the gestation period", but rather ensuring that multiple offspring are birthed in each gestation period.

It's another possibility chap, one I have considered in the past. It's one of those things I hope is never 'officially' revealed - the speculation as to what it actually is is far more fascinating than a solid 'this is it' explanation.

Personally I'm the opposite way round - I don't find the Cadians that interesting! Something about the faceless, almost automaton nature of the Korpsmen that I find fascinating, as well as having an interest in the 1914-18 war which obviously inspired the Death Korp.

It's my fault. I wasn't aware that the statement of that the Kasrkin was such a bombshell. I'm sorry for inflaming the whole discussion.

Psienesis wrote:You're confusing and conflating what Kasrkin and Storm Troopers do. While Storm Troopers do participate in SOGgy operations, they are also used as the spearhead of assaults, shock troops, heavy infantry, and all of these other, brutal roles that the Kasrkin do.

Not commonly. There's a reason the Stormtroopers are referred to as "Glory Boys" by the Imperial Guard at large. They get the credit, and what the Guardsmen consider "easy" jobs. Remember that Stormtroopers are not always on the line fighting, they might get called up for one specific operation and then go back to the rear serving as HQ security.

That's not saying, mind you, that Stormtroopers are poorly trained. The Kasrkin are always deployed at the forefront of a Cadian advance. They are commonly used as bodyguards for officers, certainly, but those officers are almost always at the frontline and engaged in combat.
It's a minor difference, I'd guess you say, but it's an important one. The Kasrkin aren't looked at with scorn or jealousy by their fellow Cadian troops, they're looked at with awe and reverence.

A Kasrkin really is just a Cadian Storm Trooper.

When it comes to representing them on the tabletop?
I will certainly agree on this. By the fluff though...it's a bit different.

Though there seems to be a lot more Kasrkin than there are Storm Troopers, since the Kasrkin seem to be found all over the damned place, while there's but a single Storm Trooper regiment.

This might actually have changed. The idea that one single Stormtrooper Regiment is sufficient for the entire Imperium is as daft as the idea of a single Astartes Chapter being able to take and garrison a world by themselves.

A single Storm Trooper regiment? When and where?

There has been a "single" Stormtrooper Regiment since about 2nd edition. The numbers, however, do not add up for a single regiment.

Right there are 10k. Storm Troopers, or they meant the regiments of Storm Troopers number 10k at any given time as Inq ST are there and so on. I think it's just horrid wording.

No.

There is one Regiment of Stormtroopers period.

They are broken up and deployed by companies/squads.
It's horrible, horrible wording and dates back to the days when Astartes were not superhuman, genetically engineered killing machines.

Brother Thomas wrote:I mean come on... Most Imperial Guard regiments are all to the points of extremism. Are there any out there that are just normal, hardy, brave men out to fight and defend the imperium, and their families? But are not fanatic and psychotic to the point of insanity?!

Am I missing something, or does this not describe the rather bog-standard Cadians and the Elysians fairly well? Relatively modern looking, nothing outrageously fanatical (at least as far as one can with 40k), etc.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's my fault. I wasn't aware that the statement of that the Kasrkin was such a bombshell. I'm sorry for inflaming the whole discussion.

Let that be a lesson to you! Everything's inflammatory on the Dakka!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:It's my fault. I wasn't aware that the statement of that the Kasrkin was such a bombshell. I'm sorry for inflaming the whole discussion.

Let that be a lesson to you! Everything's inflammatory on the Dakka!

It's always when you discuss WH40k something always gonna ruffle someone's feathers.

You're mistaking "inflammatory discussion"(read: "flamebaiting") with a statement which leads a thread on a diverging tangent.

One of those is against the rules of the forum; the other isn't.

I started a flame-war, which I didn't intend to. Then again I was under the assumption there were millions of Storm-Troopers out there, and about 5 million Kasrkin.

You did not start a flame war. You're okay.

While the discussion did get a bit..."intense", it was not a flame war.
A flame war is something wherein individuals do not present their arguments; they just attack the other poster with personal attacks, etc.

There is a damn fine line between being intense in arguing, and coming off as a keyboard-warrior. At times I wondered if I had run over your cat by accident.

Yeah. I fall a bit under the "intense" category of person, period, not just in my arguments over the Internet.

I also have quite an issue(read: to the point where it may or may not be causing a facepalm. ) when one argues a stance using the tabletop to justify fluff, etc.

In the future, and this applies to anyone who thinks I might be picking on them specifically, feel free to PM me and I'll gladly discuss things with you. I try to avoid using smiley faces when I can and it tends to make people think I'm "super serious" or flatout aggressive towards them.

Yeah, I just think there is so much easier to produce Storm Troopers and Kasrkins than Sororitas. As I wrote they are almost superhuman, but I can see your stance. The Storm Troopers are like the Navy Seals of WH40k. For me the Sisters is just a tad tougher.

Then simple polite phrases takes the edge out of things. I know I haven't the best track-record myself about it, but I just re-thought anything.

At least I shall remember that Kanluwen, and you had ample reason for annoyance with me due to me calling the Cadian Canadian.

It wasn't annoyance with the Cadianadians--more disbelief.

For the future, it would be fairly helpful to expound upon why you're comparing the two. Vague statements lead to open interpretation.

Which isn't bad for the background, but when discussing it--it can lead to issues or butting heads over seemingly useless bits of trivia.

I have seen it in pictures and heard interviews with writers, then again they have 1000 guys which varies between just doped up metahuman, to supermen controlling whole worlds by them self. So the writers ain't tactical geniuses.

I agree to that, and I shall so take that into consideration. I love the SOBs, they are amongst the most difficult to write anything about due to their intolerant nature and elitist upbringing.

Psienesis wrote:You're confusing and conflating what Kasrkin and Storm Troopers do. While Storm Troopers do participate in SOGgy operations, they are also used as the spearhead of assaults, shock troops, heavy infantry, and all of these other, brutal roles that the Kasrkin do.

A Kasrkin really is just a Cadian Storm Trooper. Though there seems to be a lot more Kasrkin than there are Storm Troopers, since the Kasrkin seem to be found all over the damned place, while there's but a single Storm Trooper regiment.

Storm troopers operate directly under Imperial jurisdiction, rather than under that of a given regiment.
Kasrkin are similar to Krieg grenadiers, they were regulars who proved themselves capable of a role somewhere between fully fledged Schola Progenium Storm Troopers and veterans, do to their battlefield experience, some units of Kasrkins may be considered better than regular storm troopers who may only have "book smarts" but it's never been officially stated. For all intents and purposes Kasrkins are just Cadian Storm Troopers.