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Well, the only store here is GW price + %14 shipping + 7% tax. For example a Land Raider costs $74.25 in GW + %14 + 7% = $90.57 thats the price a battleforce use to cost. Well, the economics of GW is affecting my country a lot since they have to buy stuff directly from GW in the UK and the cost of shipping is higher, and they add that cost to the customer.

nkelsch wrote:
And every time someone says PP is cheaper due to needing less models... Who said you can't play 1000pt warhammer game? Comparing prices on anything but a model to model standard is disingenuous as a majority of people who buy these models never play the games associated with the games so it is a 'per model' cost.

Yeah... No, you're wrong.

You can even play 10pts of 40K if you like, but if the normal tournament points are 1500+, if the points advocated in the rulebook as "normal" are in the 1000-2000 pts range, then that is what the majority of games played by the majority of people will be like.

Saying that you can't compare the normal army cost because you can play the game with a single miniature is misleading (and just a "marketing" ploy to try and make GW appear more favourable cost wise)...

@ nkelsch

True, that arguement also ignores that GW operate worldwide through their overseas HQs and retail arms. They incur costs at the local rate therefore are inclined to track prices against local salaries.

PP et al only operate in their own territories therefore have costs based upon that area. Whether they supply across the US, Europe or Australasia they can set one rate as it all comes from one place.

GW have manufacturing costs of 27% before retail costs are taken, reducing their margin to 10-12% iirc. Assuming PP can produce at the same cost what are their owners spending the remainder on?

:facetiousness:
Re the game size and model arguement you can play GW games for £30-40 if you choose (necro/mordhiem) so they must be cheaper than PP. Alternatively aren't PP releasing rules for larger games, so they must be more expensive than GW. :facetiousness:

In reality GW are expensive as are PP et al. The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious since you dont need models. People want what they want, I don't see how GW or anyone else dictates what you should be doing with your toys.

notprop wrote:True, that arguement also ignores that GW operate worldwide through their overseas HQs and retail arms. They incur costs at the local rate therefore are inclined to track prices against local salaries.

PP et al only operate in their own territories therefore have costs based upon that area. Whether they supply across the US, Europe or Australasia they can set one rate as it all comes from one place.

GW have manufacturing costs of 27% before retail costs are taken, reducing their margin to 10-12% iirc. Assuming PP can produce at the same cost what are their owners spending the remainder on?

Why are you assuming that PP can produce at the same cost as GW? Have you ever heard of economy of scale? The more units you produce, the lower your cost per unit should be. If they aren't, then you are doing something wrong.

Also as a customer, I couldn't care less about GW's retail costs. If your retail arm is costing you money instead of giving profit, then cut it.

notprop wrote:
:facetiousness:
Re the game size and model arguement you can play GW games for £30-40 if you choose (necro/mordhiem) so they must be cheaper than PP. Alternatively aren't PP releasing rules for larger games, so they must be more expensive than GW. :facetiousness:

Stop trying to mislead people, please...

Necromunda and Mordheim haven't been supported by GW for what, at least 5 years? If they were I could given you that point, but GW themselves have determined that smaller (and therefore, cheaper) games, aren't what they wan't to do, so have fun buying that 2000 pts SM army for 6th edition 40K.

notprop wrote:
In reality GW are expensive as are PP et al. The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious since you dont need models. People want what they want, I don't see how GW or anyone else dictates what you should be doing with your toys.

In reality, they are not as expensive as GW. And you don't need models? If the entire Hhhhhobby is to prepare and paint models so that you can play with said models and now your argument is that you don't need them?

The fact is that GW says that a normal game of 40k is to be played between armies of 1000 - 2000 pts.

Most people that play 40k, play it with armies between 1000 - 2000 pts.

Most 40k tournaments are made using armies between 1000 - 2000 pts.

Saying that you can change the rules of the game to use less points doesn't serve any purpose other than to try and mislead people.

PhantomViper wrote:
Yeah... No, you're wrong.

You can even play 10pts of 40K if you like, but if the normal tournament points are 1500+, if the points advocated in the rulebook as "normal" are in the 1000-2000 pts range, then that is what the majority of games played by the majority of people will be like.

Saying that you can't compare the normal army cost because you can play the game with a single miniature is misleading (and just a "marketing" ploy to try and make GW appear more favourable cost wise)...

A nice night in with a drink will cost me the price of one beer. A night on the lash will cost me several beers. Do I moan and complain because on a night out I have to spend more? No I don't, because I'm buying more beers for my money.

Yes, you need to pay more to typically play 40k, but as stated on a model basis you pay the same, so yes you spend more but you are getting MORE MODELS. That is more models to play with, more models to paint, more models to configure, etc,etc. So guess what? You get a lot more enjoyment time from them on that basis.


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notprop wrote:
:facetiousness:
Re the game size and model arguement you can play GW games for £30-40 if you choose (necro/mordhiem) so they must be cheaper than PP. Alternatively aren't PP releasing rules for larger games, so they must be more expensive than GW. :facetiousness:

In reality GW are expensive as are PP et al. The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious since you dont need models. People want what they want, I don't see how GW or anyone else dictates what you should be doing with your toys.

Exactly. Good post and have an upvote.

The size of a game isn't a rule but a preference.

Re assumptions, PP and most other games companies costs are private we can only really extrapolate from the only public set of accounts we have - GWs. But by all means sling mud if you have nothing constructive to add.

You also need to look up the word facetious. This is supposed to be an economic discussion not a emotive one.

DarthOvious wrote:
Yes, you need to pay more to typically play 40k, but as stated on a model basis you pay the same, so yes you spend more but you are getting MORE MODELS. That is more models to play with, more models to paint, more models to configure, etc,etc. So guess what? You get a lot more enjoyment time from them on that basis.

No, you are wrong, again...

For the same cost that I HAVE to pay to have ONE normal functional army of 40K, I can have 2+ armies of WMH from different factions even, if I choose, I'm not forced to spend that extra cash if my sole purpose is to have a normal game.

So you wan't to compare that in terms of "enjoyment time"?

Stop trying to manipulate facts to make GW look better... it only makes you guys come across as desperate (or as GW employees)...


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notprop wrote:The size of a game isn't a rule but a preference.

Re assumptions, PP and most other games companies costs are private we can only really extrapolate from the only public set of accounts we have - GWs. But by all means sling mud if you have nothing constructive to add.

You also need to look up the word facetious. This is supposed to be an economic discussion not a emotive one.

And here come the personal attacks when everything else fails...

Only someone who has never worked or even hasn't had any contact with any type of mass production, will be unaware that cost per unit goes down in an almost direct proportion to the number of units produced. It is public knowledge that GW produces allot more units than PP, therefore we can safely assume that GW costs per unit produced will be inferior to PP's or any other miniature maker in the market. Saying so isn't "slinging mud".

Saying that most 40k games are played in the 1000 - 2000 pts range isn't "slinging mud", its stating a fact and a direct quote from the 40k rulebook to booth , saying that Mordheim and Necromunda aren't supported by GW anymore isn't "slinging mud", its stating a fact.

Saying that you need more money (TWICE as much at the very least), to play a normal game of 40K compared to WMH, or Infinity or Malifaux, isn't "slinging mud", its stating a fact.

Ratius wrote:^^ not sure if serious?

Do you mean the aesthetic of the sculpts or the quality of materials/casts used?

If the former, imho you're talking gak.

I wouldn't say it is complete gak so much as off target. It isn't that GW has declined in quality miniatures it is really that so many other companies now produce miniatures of either the same quality or close to it. This just happens to coincide with yearly price rises that now see a land raider at $75. When you look at other companies such as:

Reaper
Privateer Press
Mongoose Publishing
Perry Brothers
Victrix
Black Scorpion
Artizan
Copplestone Castings
Warlord Games
Khurasan

you see why people are starting to see why people are starting to see GW as lacking in value for your dollar. And that isn't even counting up and coming companies like the guys who are doing Blackwater Gulch with what looks like some really good quality sculpts at a fraction of the price.

When I see 3 horseymen from PP cost 55ish dollars, and 3 Horseymen from GW cost 55$ and a horseyman from AoR costs about 30$, they all cost the same to me when it boils out. So I buy what loosk best and what I want to paint.

The games mean nothing to a large portion of the consumer base. Thousands of customers never play the game and the perceived 'value' of the game and quantity of models is lost on them.

When you boil it down, everyone else's prices are pretty much close to GW's many more, many less. Those which are substantial cheaper often are inferior or ugly. When I see impressive cheap models, my experience has been there are fulfillment problems or after a year or two of cheap prices they raise prices as they didn't realize how much it actually costs to produce models when they move from 'garage kits' to 'full-blown mini producer'

None of it bothers me and I don't see a problem with any of the prices. If I like the model, I buy it. If I don't like it, I don't.

If you treat models as little more than forced tokens to a gamepiece and you care nothing for models, then yes, they may be expensive, but that is not the companies fault you are more interested in a game than the models.

3rd party small-run resins are also super expensive, I still buy them. Kromlech, maxmini and Puppetwars all make great models which are expensive... that is how it is.

Ozymandias wrote:I’ll start with the disclaimer. I do have a degree in Economics, but it’s been years since I graduated and I don’t really use it in my day to day job. So I’m sure some of you will pipe up with how I got some specific or another wrong, but it’s been awhile so take it easy.

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but this is probably the best post about the price increase.
*Thumbs up*

Vermillion wrote:What shocks me most is that people will be up in arms that little plastic, resin and metal toys are going up in price and they cannot get as many, yet aren't protesting in the street about the insane increases in the cost of living. Energy costs, food, rent, taxes etc. are all far more important and many have got to the point where they are going without one of these things seen as essentials to try to cover the others.

)

Unfortunately for your point I need to buy food, I need to buy gas (energy) to go to work, I need to pay rent to have a place to live, and I need to pay taxes or I go to jail. Now I have cut back on gas by not driving so much but more importantly I don't need to buy GW stuff it is a luxury item that I can chose to buy or not to buy.


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Ozymandias wrote:Certainly necessities are inelastic, however my points about substitution and brand loyalty still hold. I can find some alternatives in the form of Mantic models, but if I want a space marine and a rhino, there aren't any cheaper alternatives out there.

In the end, GW is acting like their product is inelastic, and I wanted people to better understand the concept.

You are correct that you cannot find a direct substitute but you can find a substitute for your entertainment dollars. And based off of falling sales volume this is what people are doing. The big problem with GWs strategy isn't just falling sales volume it is a loss of the player base. The loss of a player base is the most serious issue a game company can face. Now I am not saying that GW can't overcome this only that they are getting to a point that they will not be able to.

notprop wrote:The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious...

Are you saying it sucks?

Fallacious. Felatious presumably means having the qualities of fellatio.

My 35 point (tournament sized) tier 4 Hordes army cost $192 retail, without factoring warstore 20+% off.

Or I could have had 15 Centigor (10% of tournament sized) for my ghorros themed Beastmen army. :(

Or 2 landraider. :(

And I didn't have to jump through any stupid hoops online to order it... Seriously, go browse the Warmachine section of thewarstore and then either GW section and tell me you don't think gw is stupid when compaired to pp. You can still do it. And get the discount. But gw has gone way out of their way to make it as hard as possible to purchase their products.

htj wrote:

notprop wrote:The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious...

Are you saying it sucks?

Fallacious. Felatious presumably means having the qualities of fellatio.

LOL. I was going to post just to say the exact same thing.

htj wrote:

notprop wrote:The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious...

Are you saying it sucks?

Fallacious. Felatious presumably means having the qualities of fellatio.

I prefer the latter explanation

In terms of the games (rather than just buying the odd model or so to paint), of course the games are designed to work at a certain level of points. For 40k, this is in the 1500pt-2000pt bracket (Apocalypse excluded), and generally regarded as being 2000+ for WFB. I think really that's the only fair assumption to make regarding price to play a game. Of course kids can play 40k with a tac squad and a rhino, but I'm guessing they would get bored pretty quickly and would be forever looking jealously at the battle reports in the pages of WD.

GW has undergone scale creep. The new version of Fantasy requires more figures than the previous one. Given that I need to have lots of figures, I am not as concerned with the details on the models as much as I would be if I were playing with fewer miniatures. It does not matter to me if I can see the detail on trooper number 37's teeth, as I may not even have time to paint them. The lack of necessity of detail for large scale games has led them to be played with small scale figures, which are less expensive and easier to lug around. GW has simply tried to buck the trend.

Many of us grew up with plastic green army men. They are not that detailed, but they are really cheap (500 for 30 bucks), and do not require assembly. For the purposes of playing 40k they are a much better value than GWs models. I think that the trade off of price more than makes up for the loss of detail. This being said when playing a small scale game, GW miniatures would be far superior.

It is simply crazy to pay GW prices for a large scale game. It is even worse when you buy multiple armies, as many of us have been know to do.

Thus, although some other companies may not charge much less than GW for a miniature, you don't need nearly as many to play their games.

Bakerofish wrote:

htj wrote:

notprop wrote:The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious...

Are you saying it sucks?

Fallacious. Felatious presumably means having the qualities of fellatio.

LOL. I was going to post just to say the exact same thing.

I could pretend I was being witty but it seems my iPhones predicta-text got the better of me. I did think there was something amiss at the time.

Burn in hell Steve Jobs! [shakes fist at nothing in particular]

PhantomViper wrote:
No, you are wrong, again...

No I'm not.

For the same cost that I HAVE to pay to have ONE normal functional army of 40K,

First mistake right here. Modelling and painting are part of the hobby. You can't just discard them at your whim because you say so.

I can have 2+ armies of WMH from different factions even, if I choose,

And if I stay in the house then I can also just drink cheaper beer instead of actually going out to a club to pay more expensive prices just so I can actually hang out with my friends and have a good time.

I'm not forced to spend that extra cash if my sole purpose is to have a normal game.

Nobody holds a gun to your head. You don't need to spend more cash, just play games at lesser points. Heck, I even played at a doubles tournie that was 500pts each a month back and it was lots of fun and my list consisted of Mephiston and ten assault marines. Not really a big cost there really.

So you wan't to compare that in terms of "enjoyment time"?

Beleive it or not, some people actually enjoy painting and modelling. You're complaining because you need to pay more money to buy MORE THINGS and that is pretty unreasonable if you ask me. It's like complaining because you have to pay more for a PC just to get the better video card with all the options. Next it will be "WAH the new Xbox costs more than the old one, I'm going to go and have a hissy fit because the newer and better Xbox costs more money WAH". Just stop whinging.

Stop trying to manipulate facts to make GW look better... it only makes you guys come across as desperate (or as GW employees)...

I am no GW defender. I do disagree with some of their decisions. However you majorly come across as someone who can only have a negative view of GW. So I can only quote your own words back at you.

Stop trying to manipulate facts to make GW look bad... it only makes you guys come across as desperate (or as bitter)...



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brettz123 wrote:

Ratius wrote:^^ not sure if serious?

Do you mean the aesthetic of the sculpts or the quality of materials/casts used?

If the former, imho you're talking gak.

I wouldn't say it is complete gak so much as off target. It isn't that GW has declined in quality miniatures it is really that so many other companies now produce miniatures of either the same quality or close to it. This just happens to coincide with yearly price rises that now see a land raider at $75. When you look at other companies such as:

Reaper
Privateer Press
Mongoose Publishing
Perry Brothers
Victrix
Black Scorpion
Artizan
Copplestone Castings
Warlord Games
Khurasan

you see why people are starting to see why people are starting to see GW as lacking in value for your dollar. And that isn't even counting up and coming companies like the guys who are doing Blackwater Gulch with what looks like some really good quality sculpts at a fraction of the price.

A Landraider over costs £35. The RRP for an Arcantrik Force Generator is £59.99. http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/retribution-of-scyrah-arcantrik-force-generator.html

Just how big is this Force Generator? I don't know because I don't own one, but it better be bloody big if it's £60. It doesn't look like the size of a super heavy but then looks are pretty deceptive.

Some of the other stuff looks slightly cheaper, but nothing to get worked up about in my opinion. I know for a fact that the warjacks aren't as big as Dreadnoughts and I've also seen the models and they look slightly smaller. The rule books also cost exactly the same. £25 for either a codex or a warmachine army book.

DarthOvious wrote: Lots of irrelevant arguments and moving the goal posts of the discussion...

Wow, so now the main purpose of GW minis has gone from "playing a game", to "just buying it for painting and modelling purposes".

I must have missed GW's announcement of their change of MO... I wonder why they take all that time and effort to release Army Books and new rules editions if people only use their models for painting and modelling purposes...

Also, I'm not the one manipulating facts, you are. Go to the Battle Reports section and let me know how many games bellow 1000 pts you see there beside some guy that is just starting the game.
Or go to the Tournament Discussion section and see how many tournaments are announced bellow 1000 pts.

Just because some people some times play some games bellow that threshold, doesn't mean that that is the norm. Just like some people only buying the miniatures to paint / model mean that that is their primary purpose! You accuse me of ignoring those aspects while you yourself are wilfully ignoring the vast majority of GW customers and the entire purpose of the minis existence trying to prove your "point"...

nkelsch wrote:When I see 3 horseymen from PP cost 55ish dollars, and 3 Horseymen from GW cost 55$ and a horseyman from AoR costs about 30$, they all cost the same to me when it boils out. So I buy what loosk best and what I want to paint.

The games mean nothing to a large portion of the consumer base. Thousands of customers never play the game and the perceived 'value' of the game and quantity of models is lost on them.

When you boil it down, everyone else's prices are pretty much close to GW's many more, many less. Those which are substantial cheaper often are inferior or ugly. When I see impressive cheap models, my experience has been there are fulfillment problems or after a year or two of cheap prices they raise prices as they didn't realize how much it actually costs to produce models when they move from 'garage kits' to 'full-blown mini producer'

None of it bothers me and I don't see a problem with any of the prices. If I like the model, I buy it. If I don't like it, I don't.

If you treat models as little more than forced tokens to a gamepiece and you care nothing for models, then yes, they may be expensive, but that is not the companies fault you are more interested in a game than the models.

3rd party small-run resins are also super expensive, I still buy them. Kromlech, maxmini and Puppetwars all make great models which are expensive... that is how it is.

Upvoted for a great post. To me it's all about the enjoyment I get out the hobby. I love 40k and Fantasy and thats it. I would probably like some other systems as well but I don't think I would enjoy them as much as 40k or Fantasy.


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brettz123 wrote:

Vermillion wrote:What shocks me most is that people will be up in arms that little plastic, resin and metal toys are going up in price and they cannot get as many, yet aren't protesting in the street about the insane increases in the cost of living. Energy costs, food, rent, taxes etc. are all far more important and many have got to the point where they are going without one of these things seen as essentials to try to cover the others.

)

Unfortunately for your point I need to buy food, I need to buy gas (energy) to go to work, I need to pay rent to have a place to live, and I need to pay taxes or I go to jail. Now I have cut back on gas by not driving so much but more importantly I don't need to buy GW stuff it is a luxury item that I can chose to buy or not to buy.

That was his point. There are people here up in arms talking about boycotts or whatever over items thay don't even need to survive but when it comes to other more essential costs they will sit back and do nothing when the cost goes up. Shouldn't they be more worried and more proactive about those costs going up that they DO NEED?


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PhantomViper wrote:

DarthOvious wrote: Lots of irrelevant arguments and moving the goal posts of the discussion...

Wow, so now the main purpose of GW minis has gone from "playing a game", to "just buying it for painting and modelling purposes".

Strawman argument is a strawman. I didn't say that and the fact that you cut out what I actually said to post some drivel instead actually shows how disingenious you are. I said that Painting and modelling are part of the hobby. What I DID NOT SAY BUT YOU ARE ASSERTING THAT I DID SAY is that painting and modelling are the main parts of the hobby.

Go on, quote me where I said that and if you can't then you are a filthy liar.

I must have missed GW's announcement of their change of MO... I wonder why they take all that time and effort to release Army Books and new rules editions if people only use their models for painting and modelling purposes...

If your reading comprehension was better then you would see i said this:

"First mistake right here. Modelling and painting are part of the hobby. You can't just discard them at your whim because you say so."

See the word part there? In your dictionary does the word part mean totality? If it does I suggest you take that dictionary back and ask for refund.

See, I've played this game before and I know how to play. I know all the fallcious arguments and logical fallacies that scum like you use in order to try and make yourselves look better than other people. Those games won't work on me Boyo.

now I'll use your same words against you again.

I must have missed GW's announcement of their change of MO... I wonder why they take all that time and effort to release Paints and Multi-part kits if people only use their models for gaming purposes... Har de har har.

Also, I'm not the one manipulating facts, you are. Go to the Battle Reports section and let me know how many games bellow 1000 pts you see there beside some guy that is just starting the game.

Why don't you go to miniwargaming and see all the kill team battle reports they do. Why don't you go to 500pt double tournies like I do. How about you take part in a 750pt tournie like I will be doing in August.

The fact that most players play 1500pt to 2000pt games only go to prove the fact that they are willing to pay the money to play those points in the first place. Duh!!!!!

Or go to the Tournament Discussion section and see how many tournaments are announced bellow 1000 pts.

Ahem. Or I could look at the ones I took and take part in.

Just because some people some times play some games bellow that threshold, doesn't mean that that is the norm.

Meaing that they are willing to pay the money to play at those points. Heck I know guy down at my local store who has several armies. He plays Tau, Dark Eldar, Orks, Daemons, Space Marines and several other amries and he uses these armies to play in APOCALYPSE GAMES!!!!!!!

Just like some people only buying the miniatures to paint / model mean that that is their primary purpose!

I didn't say it was or wasn't and I proved that with my post. Now go and learn some logic and some argumentation skills.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/introtof.html

You accuse me of ignoring those aspects while you yourself are wilfully ignoring the vast majority of GW customers and the entire purpose of the minis existence trying to prove your "point"...

Erm no I didn't. You did. You completely left out the modelling and painting aspect from your post and I reminded you of that and said it was PART of the hobby. You then constructed a strawman argument in your own mind suggesting that I was saying it the only part of the hobby, which I didn't. Not my fault that your school didn't teach you read right.

And I'm done, and I just embarrassed you in front of every other member of this board. How do feel? Do you feel dirty?

The only person that you've embarrassed is yourself.

Keep on moving those goalposts.

What on earth does the fact that painting and modelling is also part of the hobby has anything to do with GW raising prices on their miniatures making their primary purpose absurdly expensive to their target audience?

What on earth does the fact that you took part in a 500 pts doubles tournament (and how many 1000+ pts games have you done in the same time frame? No forget that, I'm sure you'd just twist the answer), has to do with the fact that that is NOT the main point of the miniatures or the game primary playing mode? Anecdotal evidence is anedoctal: when I started demoing WM in my LGS, I only had a single starter box and an extra Warcaster, so I divided the warjacks in the starter between both warcasters and demoed the game that way... I guess you can play WMH with just 2 miniatures! How economic of PP!

Further anecdotal evidence: the guy that demoed Infinity to me, only used 3 figures on each side during the demo, I guess you can play Infinity with only 3 models as well! Way to go CB!

You do realise that the title of this thread is "The Economics Behind GW Price Increases" and that your posts are supposed to be seen under that context right? Because if like, say, Mike McVey, their figures where considered highly collectable items for painters, then the high prices wouldn't matter so much. But when those price rises are seen in the context of the GW game normal playing mode, then that makes GW the most expensive miniatures maker in the market by over DOUBLE their closest competitors cost.

It doesn't matter if you can play the game with just 1 miniature, that is not the normal playing mode.
It doesn't matter that you can use the miniatures to paint and model, you can do the same with every other miniature in the market, and that is not their primary purpose.
It doesn't matter that someone has managed to built 10 GW armies of 25000 points each in current GW prices, there are allot of people in the world with money to burn, considering that GW has lost on average 5 - 10 % sales volume in these past years, their current business model doesn't look very health in the medium future.

Ever single one of your arguments is completely irrelevant to both this thread and in the light of GW's own business model and they are only made so you can try and make GW seem just as expensive as everyone else... they are not!

You wan't further proof of that? GW is loosing sales volumes while PP, CB, Wyrd and BF, just to name the most famous brands, are expanding at an almost exponential rate.

PhantomViper wrote:The only person that you've embarrassed is yourself.

No I embarrassed you.

Keep on moving those goalposts.

Where? Where did I move them? I showed where you misquoted me and where you made a strawman argument. Now you show me where I moved any goalposts because I didn't.

What on earth does the fact that painting and modelling is also part of the hobby has anything to do with GW raising prices on their miniatures making their primary purpose absurdly expensive to their target audience?

Because you said this and I was responding to it.

PhantomViper wrote: Yeah... No, you're wrong.

You can even play 10pts of 40K if you like, but if the normal tournament points are 1500+, if the points advocated in the rulebook as "normal" are in the 1000-2000 pts range, then that is what the majority of games played by the majority of people will be like.

Saying that you can't compare the normal army cost because you can play the game with a single miniature is misleading (and just a "marketing" ploy to try and make GW appear more favourable cost wise)...

You were complaining because you need to buy more models & more pointage in order to play the game while disregarding that more models means that you play a bigger game, have more models to glue and configure/convert and also more models to paint. Hence more enjoyment time for your purchases. I informed you that you were missing this from the equation in the cost of things. i.e More things meaning more money but also more enjoyment time, and you basically then flipped the lid because you fail to understand this relatively simple point.

If I pay £35 for a Xbox game I get the game for that price. Additional content via download will cost me extra. It doesn't matter if it's the same freaking game. I get more for my money. You can't complain about needing to buy "more things" in order to play the game when all you have to do is just not buy the additionals and just play the smaller game.

Its akin to you moaning about having to buy the download content for Assassins Creed Revelations because it costs extra money just to get those additonal parts of the storyline. So what? Just don't buy it and save your money and just play with what you've got already.

What on earth does the fact that you took part in a 500 pts doubles tournament (and how many 1000+ pts games have you done in the same time frame? No forget that, I'm sure you'd just twist the answer), has to do with the fact that that is NOT the main point of the miniatures or the game primary playing mode?

I never said it was or wasn't the main part you freaking idiot and I proved that with my post and showed what I actually said instead of your demented twisted strawman. What is it that you do not understand about the word "part". Is it too fricking difficult for you to decipher? Do I need to reference a dictionary?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/part?s=t

noun
1. a portion or division of a whole that is separate or distinct; piece, fragment, fraction, or section; constituent: the rear part of the house; to glue the two parts together.
2. an essential or integral attribute or quality: a sense of humor is part of a healthy personality.
3. a section or division of a literary work.
4. a portion, member, or organ of an animal body.
5. any of a number of more or less equal quantities that compose a whole or into which a whole is divided: Use two parts sugar to one part cocoa.


The 500pt doubles tournie I played in was at WARHAMMER WORLD, and freaking heck, they even had a tournie pack for this all made up for this, so it isn't obviously that rare to occur, especially since not only did my local store have this tournament but also the other store I go to in the city did this on a SEPARATE DATE.. Not to mention that the fact that many people play 1500 to 2000 pts only goes to show that they can AFFORD to play at those points levels. Here is the rules pack for 750pts.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1470393a_WHW_40K_doubles_event_pack_2011_PDF

Heck, the 750pts doubles even need to be played over an entire weekend instead of over the course of one day.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=20900004a

So they have a 500pt doubles for LotR coming up, a 875pt 40k doubles coming up and a 750pt doubles coming up.

Oh, look, you were wrong. There are plenty of tournaments that allow you to bring less than 1000pts to them.

Anecdotal evidence is anedoctal: when I started demoing WM in my LGS, I only had a single starter box and an extra Warcaster, so I divided the warjacks in the starter between both warcasters and demoed the game that way... I guess you can play WMH with just 2 miniatures! How economic of PP!

Yes, just call what I said anecdotal evidence. It doesn't matter if I'm right. It doesn't matter that I pointed you towards 200pt kill team batreps at miniwargaming. It doesn't matter that GAMES WORKSHOP themselves held these doubles tournaments and they held them for DIFFERENT AREAS. My store and another store got together for a 500pt doubles and also the other stores in the nearby area got together and held a 500pt doubles tournie, but of course that is all just anecdotal evidence

Further anecdotal evidence: the guy that demoed Infinity to me, only used 3 figures on each side during the demo, I guess you can play Infinity with only 3 models as well! Way to go CB!

I'm talking about tournies and you're talking about demo games. You honestly don't see the difference here in this?

Also if you want to play Inifinity with 3 models then that is fine and dandy with me. I don't care. But then you can always hold a character tournie for 40k and just have 1 model on the table. Which by the way some people got together to actually do. Guess I win then.

You do realise that the title of this thread is "The Economics Behind GW Price Increases" and that your posts are supposed to be seen under that context right?

The title of the thread is irrelevant because I was replying to YOUR POST. So it is the CONTENTS OF YOUR POST that actually matters, not the bloody thread title.

Because if like, say, Mike McVey, their figures where considered highly collectable items for painters, then the high prices wouldn't matter so much. But when those price rises are seen in the context of the GW game normal playing mode, then that makes GW the most expensive miniatures maker in the market by over DOUBLE their closest competitors cost.

And I explained the concept of buying more stuff = paying more money. You still don't seem to be grasping this concept.

Perhaps you want golf manufacturers to make fewer clubs? Maybe making fewer clubs will lower the overall price just enough for you so you could join the game huh? Nevermind the damage to the flexibility of the game Or how about making the game shorter to just 9 holes and then asking the golf club to lower your green fees since you don't play as much as the other people at the club.

It doesn't matter if you can play the game with just 1 miniature, that is not the normal playing mode.

So what? You still don't seem to be grasping the concept of buying more stuff = paying more money. If I buy a game for the Xbox then I don't complain about having to pay for all the download content that costs extra. I don't go "Wah the normal playing mode of the game requires me to spend more on this than other games". Stop whining and stop being a big baby about it.

It doesn't matter that you can use the miniatures to paint and model, you can do the same with every other miniature in the market, and that is not their primary purpose.

Excuse me it is still a purpose of the mini's and there are plenty of people out there who DON'T PLAY but buy the models to paint and convert. This is very disingenious of you to ignore people like that. It is also very disingenious of you to downplay the painting part of the hobby. If its not a big part of the hobby then why do GW sell paints? Why did they go to all the trouble of increasing their paint range to 145 colours? Why do they have painting stations in their store? Why do they offer free painting lessons to people who want them. Obviously they think that the painting part is just a minimal part of the hobby /sarcasm Reality sir disagrees with you very strongly here. Yes the gaming part is important but so is the painting part and modelling part. Otherwise why make multi-part plastic kits at all? You may as well just sell full minis for eveything.

It doesn't matter that someone has managed to built 10 GW armies of 25000 points each in current GW prices, there are allot of people in the world with money to burn, considering that GW has lost on average 5 - 10 % sales volume in these past years, their current business model doesn't look very health in the medium future.

Yes, they have lost customers, no doubt. Thats because stupid people like you do not realise the simple concept of buying more stuff = paying more money. Also lots of shops have been losing buisness. For instance Game went into administration earlier this year. Does that mean that all the gaming companies are screwing up? No, it doesn't. it just means people have less disposable income than they used to. However the companies can't afford to decrease their prices either so it is a catch 22 situation. Not to mention that people have been leaving GW FOR OTHER REASONS. Some people stopped buying because of finecast issues or for other things they percieved to be unethical. I have no problem with that and I agree that finecast needs to improve. However you're whole argument centres on "oh my gosh!!! I needz to pay more money to playz the gamez" without taking into consideration that its a larger game to play, you get more models for that extra cash you spend and you get more painting and crafting time with those models.

Ever single one of your arguments is completely irrelevant to both this thread and in the light of GW's own business model and they are only made so you can try and make GW seem just as expensive as everyone else... they are not!

Once again I was replying to YOU. It doesn't matter what the freaking thread is about. The only context that matters is what YOU SAID. I know its a difficult point for you to understand, but perhaps one day the wizard will grant you a brain. As for the second part, that is one big strawman again. My word you just can't stop stacking these logical fallacies can you? I didn't say "just as expensive as everyone else... ", what I actually said was this:

"Yes, you need to pay more to typically play 40k, but as stated on a model basis you pay the same, so yes you spend more but you are getting MORE MODELS. That is more models to play with, more models to paint, more models to configure, etc,etc. So guess what? You get a lot more enjoyment time from them on that basis."

But please keep stacking those strawmen. I know its difficult for you to actually understand what people are saying. If only you actually paid attention in your English class.

You wan't further proof of that? GW is loosing sales volumes while PP, CB, Wyrd and BF, just to name the most famous brands, are expanding at an almost exponential rate.

Point addressed above.

So what? Sainsburys makes more money than ASDA but that doesn't mean that Sainsbury is cheaper. Actually Sainsburys is more expensive but people like their products more. Since I actually addressed the rest above in concerns to people leaving GW for OTHER REASONS and not just price rises then I don't think I need to cover more.

don't feed the troll, phantom

The price increase is -per kit- eg, per model.

Just in case that went over anybody's heads.

Actually, Asda aren't all that cheap. But, for whatever reason they seem to have the reputation for being so.

Also if you want to play Inifinity with 3 models then that is fine and dandy with me. I don't care. But then you can always hold a character tournie for 40k and just have 1 model on the table... Guess I win then.

I think the only thing that comes from this discussion is that you lose... both of you

holycow wrote:don't feed the troll, phantom

Excuse me but he blantantly cut out what I said, rephrased it in his own hashed out words and then proceded to misrepresent what I said with strawmen and I actually SHOWED where he did this. But no of course, I just be the one who is the troll.

I was perfectly civil up to this point. Look at it again why don't you. Its this one where he does this:

Phantomviper wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:
Lots of irrelevant arguments and moving the goal posts of the discussion...

Wow, so now the main purpose of GW minis has gone from "playing a game", to "just buying it for painting and modelling purposes".

I must have missed GW's announcement of their change of MO... I wonder why they take all that time and effort to release Army Books and new rules editions if people only use their models for painting and modelling purposes...

Also, I'm not the one manipulating facts, you are. Go to the Battle Reports section and let me know how many games bellow 1000 pts you see there beside some guy that is just starting the game.
Or go to the Tournament Discussion section and see how many tournaments are announced bellow 1000 pts.

Just because some people some times play some games bellow that threshold, doesn't mean that that is the norm. Just like some people only buying the miniatures to paint / model mean that that is their primary purpose! You accuse me of ignoring those aspects while you yourself are wilfully ignoring the vast majority of GW customers and the entire purpose of the minis existence trying to prove your "point"...

See that? He blatantly replaced my words with "Lots of irrelevant arguments and moving the goal posts of the discussion...". After taking my words out, so other people couldn't see them within the post he then went onto a strawman based argument where he said that I was apparently saying that the painting and modelling part of the hobby was the primary part of the hobby when I didn't say that.

What I actually said was:

"Modelling and painting are part of the hobby".

Am I wrong when I say this? Is this somehow false? Is modelling and painting not part of the hobby? Am I making things up here?

I've got a crazy idea, maybe some people enjoy wargaming just as much as painting and modeling.

I know, wacky, crazy, totally silly, but I'm gonna say it anyway and see who froths at the mouth.

Pacific wrote:Actually, Asda aren't all that cheap. But, for whatever reason they seem to have the reputation for being so.

I used to work for them while I was back at Uni. My experience says they are slightly cheaper than Tesco but not by much. Could have changed now I guess. However they are defintely cheaper than Sainsburys.

Also if you want to play Inifinity with 3 models then that is fine and dandy with me. I don't care. But then you can always hold a character tournie for 40k and just have 1 model on the table... Guess I win then.

I think the only thing that comes from this discussion is that you lose... both of you

Obviously I was being humourous. However I do actually know of a tournie that was held in this fashion. Basically it was just knock out rounds of 40k characters to determine who was the best. At the time it was done, it was The Sanguinor that actually won it. . Don't know if he would win it now though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TedNugent wrote:I've got a crazy idea, maybe some people enjoy wargaming just as much as painting and modeling.

I know, wacky, crazy, totally silly, but I'm gonna say it anyway and see who froths at the mouth.

You're right. People enjoy doing both. Some people enjoy doing one while not doing the other. I know people who play but don't really like the modelling/painting side of things (but they have to do it) but I also know people who don't play but love the modelling & painting side of things. I haven't said otherwise in all I've said but for some reason phantomviper seems to think that I have said something completely different.

Personally I think he is deliberately doing it because he doesn't want to address the points made.

TedNugent wrote:I've got a crazy idea, maybe some people enjoy wargaming just as much as painting and modeling.

I know, wacky, crazy, totally silly, but I'm gonna say it anyway and see who froths at the mouth.

Sounds like Heresy to me!!!! the Emperor demands from you a... Taco!!!

But really I agree with you on your comment. I mean painting and modeling and then playing a game with another human being instead of looking at pixels on a monitor? Brilliant!

Especially if there is pizza and beer involved. Good times are at hand.

Speaking of Infinity, they do have cheaper models if you compare them to GW's metal ones that are now turned-Finecast. Better quality, too.