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notprop wrote:@ nkelsch

True, that arguement also ignores that GW operate worldwide through their overseas HQs and retail arms. They incur costs at the local rate therefore are inclined to track prices against local salaries.

PP et al only operate in their own territories therefore have costs based upon that area. Whether they supply across the US, Europe or Australasia they can set one rate as it all comes from one place.

GW have manufacturing costs of 27% before retail costs are taken, reducing their margin to 10-12% iirc. Assuming PP can produce at the same cost what are their owners spending the remainder on?

This part of your post was well thought out, but it does kind of highlight one of GW's apparent failures, and something unique to the HHHobby. By not trying to compete against local retail presences, PP has kept their costs low, while GW has tried all they can to increase their overall profits, from their 1 man store model, to the yearly price increase, but the money they make year to year is mostly flat, with sales declining. As to what PP does with that extra money, my guess is employing more than 15 people in their studio judging by the rate at which they churn out new releases. At this point, GW almost looks like a couple guys in their garage when it takes them a decade and a half to fully update their main line.

On the "cost" of armies between games, it really shouldn't need a comparison, as an obvious fan of PP, even I can admit their prices are on par with GW, though less overall when collecting "standard" size forces. Can you play with less or more with either game, sure you can, you can collect and play at whatever point value you can find an opponent for.

DarthOvious wrote:

A Landraider over costs £35. The RRP for an Arcantrik Force Generator is £59.99. http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/retribution-of-scyrah-arcantrik-force-generator.html

Just how big is this Force Generator? I don't know because I don't own one, but it better be bloody big if it's £60. It doesn't look like the size of a super heavy but then looks are pretty deceptive.

Some of the other stuff looks slightly cheaper, but nothing to get worked up about in my opinion. I know for a fact that the warjacks aren't as big as Dreadnoughts and I've also seen the models and they look slightly smaller. The rule books also cost exactly the same. £25 for either a codex or a warmachine army book.

And that is why I am not arguing that the cost is the main issue. And I mentioned a lot of companies and you only looked at one. I could also add in Spartan Games and Malifaux. All quality sculpts and almost all of them are cheaper to boot. Now not all are cheaper but again my point was only that GW is not the only good company anymore and they are not pricing themselves to be competitive. This is going to become a serious problem for GW if they do not stop their annual price increase.


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DarthOvious wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Unfortunately for your point I need to buy food, I need to buy gas (energy) to go to work, I need to pay rent to have a place to live, and I need to pay taxes or I go to jail. Now I have cut back on gas by not driving so much but more importantly I don't need to buy GW stuff it is a luxury item that I can chose to buy or not to buy.

That was his point. There are people here up in arms talking about boycotts or whatever over items thay don't even need to survive but when it comes to other more essential costs they will sit back and do nothing when the cost goes up. Shouldn't they be more worried and more proactive about those costs going up that they DO NEED?

Boycotts can be useful though I would not support one. The discussion you are taking us towards is well beyond the scope of this discussion but yes it would make sense for someone to be more upset about the rise in essential items. Though that doesn't preclude them from being upset at the rise in non-essential items either. So not really a good argument on his part or yours. This thread isn't about gas prices or food prices. So of course you are correct but it doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand.


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DarthOvious wrote:

I never said it was or wasn't the main part you freaking idiot and I proved that with my post and showed what I actually said instead of your demented twisted strawman. What is it that you do not understand about the word "part". Is it too fricking difficult for you to decipher? Do I need to reference a dictionary?

Is there some reason you are personally attacking people?


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DarthOvious wrote:

holycow wrote:don't feed the troll, phantom

Excuse me but he blantantly cut out what I said, rephrased it in his own hashed out words and then proceded to misrepresent what I said with strawmen and I actually SHOWED where he did this. But no of course, I just be the one who is the troll.

I was perfectly civil up to this point. Look at it again why don't you. Its this one where he does this:

And this excuses your poor behavior how?

I have yet to figure out how two models of a man on a horse that cost exactly the same is somehow cheaper because one game allows you to play with 1-5 horsemen and another allows you to play with 1-10 horsemen. Especially to someone looking to buy only one man on a horse model.

GW has explicitly said a large number of their customers never play the game. People do buy the models for the models. PP may run a better business with their sales and such, but they are not cheaper. They still produce a highly priced model compared to the rest of the industry. I fell they are totally worth it, but I am not going to pretend they are cheaper.

I own a bunch of PP models and never played the game and don't even have a legal army. I just buy what looks neat and I like to paint. Not sure how I am somehow mor satisfied because someone somewhere needs less models to play with. Not sure how it makes the model I purchase cheaper.

brettz123 wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:

A Landraider over costs £35. The RRP for an Arcantrik Force Generator is £59.99. http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/retribution-of-scyrah-arcantrik-force-generator.html

Just how big is this Force Generator? I don't know because I don't own one, but it better be bloody big if it's £60. It doesn't look like the size of a super heavy but then looks are pretty deceptive.

Some of the other stuff looks slightly cheaper, but nothing to get worked up about in my opinion. I know for a fact that the warjacks aren't as big as Dreadnoughts and I've also seen the models and they look slightly smaller. The rule books also cost exactly the same. £25 for either a codex or a warmachine army book.

And that is why I am not arguing that the cost is the main issue. And I mentioned a lot of companies and you only looked at one. I could also add in Spartan Games and Malifaux. All quality sculpts and almost all of them are cheaper to boot. Now not all are cheaper but again my point was only that GW is not the only good company anymore and they are not pricing themselves to be competitive. This is going to become a serious problem for GW if they do not stop their annual price increase.

I don't think they can stop. At the end of the day how much profit are they actually making? People keep saying that their annual profits are continuing to go down and down. How can they be making a massive profit margin from the kits they sell, but when looking at their yearly reports they're not actually doing too great profit wise? You see thats the point, everyone here is under the false impression that GW are making a ridiculous profit on each kit they sell but then their reports don't really show that. A good amount of their profits even come from IP that they sell onto video games.

Boycotts can be useful though I would not support one. The discussion you are taking us towards is well beyond the scope of this discussion but yes it would make sense for someone to be more upset about the rise in essential items. Though that doesn't preclude them from being upset at the rise in non-essential items either. So not really a good argument on his part or yours. This thread isn't about gas prices or food prices. So of course you are correct but it doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand.

I was pointing out what the other guy was saying. In a sense he is correct that it is weird that nobody boycotts rising gas prices but then they will get together to boycott lil plastic men. There is relevance to it in the discussion though since it is being used as a comparison. I wouldn't just throw out his argument like that. It is pefectly acceptable to make an argument based on a analogy and this is even performed in the realm of philosophy.

Is there some reason you are personally attacking people?

Already explained why. When somebody cuts out my post and then replaces it with drivel and then misrepresents my argument I assume they are doing it deliberately and therefore are being disingenious.

And this excuses your poor behavior how?

Lets just say I use a polemic style of discussion when it comes to these kind of people.


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nkelsch wrote:I have yet to figure out how two models of a man on a horse that cost exactly the same is somehow cheaper because one game allows you to play with 1-5 horsemen and another allows you to play with 1-10 horsemen. Especially to someone looking to buy only one man on a horse model.

GW has explicitly said a large number of their customers never play the game. People do buy the models for the models. PP may run a better business with their sales and such, but they are not cheaper. They still produce a highly priced model compared to the rest of the industry. I fell they are totally worth it, but I am not going to pretend they are cheaper.

I own a bunch of PP models and never played the game and don't even have a legal army. I just buy what looks neat and I like to paint. Not sure how I am somehow mor satisfied because someone somewhere needs less models to play with. Not sure how it makes the model I purchase cheaper.

Exactly. Good post and upvoted.

What kind of a margin are they turning per kit?

In particular, on the GW store, since that's where most of these price increases concern.

You can't boycott rising gas prices, especially if you depend on your car for transportation. It's a necessity.

Ozymandias wrote:I’ll start with the disclaimer. I do have a degree in Economics, but it’s been years since I graduated and I don’t really use it in my day to day job. So I’m sure some of you will pipe up with how I got some specific or another wrong, but it’s been awhile so take it easy.

So how can GW continue to raise prices? While it is true that some of us will buy less or quit altogether, they continue to raise prices every year at a rate beyond inflation. How can they do that and still be profitable year after year? I’ve seen a lot of posts saying “It’s simply economics, if you lower price, you sell more,” and while that may be true, the way it actually works is much more complex than that.

It comes down to an economic principle called price elasticity of demand. What this means is that some products are considered elastic while others are more inelastic. An elastic product is one where as the price increases, the overall revenue ($) goes down. Think of this like butter. If the price of butter increases, you buy olive oil instead and don’t buy butter (an imperfect example, but I think you get the idea). A perfectly elastic product would be one that if there is any change in price the quantity goes to zero. Lots of items in our day to day lives are considered elastic, especially ones with lots of alternatives.

Now an inelastic product is something that even if the price increases, the drop in quantity is not enough to offset the revenue increase from the price increase. Gasoline is a classic example of this. As the price of gas goes up, people may buy less, but the overall revenue from sales of gasoline either increase or stay the same. A perfectly inelastic product is one that no matter the change in price, the quantity doesn’t change. Luxury goods are usually considered inelastic. If the price of a Lexus goes up 10%, overall revenue of Lexus’ either goes up or stays the same.

Wargaming models are generally considered luxury goods. They aren’t a necessity, there aren’t a lot of substitutions. and gamers are generally pretty brand loyal. Wargaming models, in particular warhammer models, are inelastic. So if GW raises the price of everything by 10%, they may see a decline in the total quantity sold, but not in the overall revenue of their products.

Now, since no product is perfectly inelastic, there comes a point in every product where the increase in price does not mean an increase in revenue. GW is operating under the assumption (and probably rightly so) that they have not hit that threshold yet. Until GW’s price increase does not correspond to an increase in sales, they have no reason NOT to increase prices. It pisses a lot of us off (myself included), it prices some people out of the hobby (I’m getting close there), but until it actually affects their bottom line, it makes economic sense (maybe not marketing sense, but that’s another topic), to continue to raise prices.

Hope that helps clear up the reasoning behind GW's price increases, now let's all stop buying stuff so they hit that threshold!

Interesting reminder. Cool. However, GW's most successfull competition, Privateer Press, have had an influx of customers lately. Those people may largely be those who were dissatisfied with GW and did not buy much in the past few years anyway (like me), but I think that the fact that Warmachine is becoming more widespread will increase the elasticity of GW products quite soon.

DarthOvious wrote:

I was pointing out what the other guy was saying. In a sense he is correct that it is weird that nobody boycotts rising gas prices but then they will get together to boycott lil plastic men. There is relevance to it in the discussion though since it is being used as a comparison. I wouldn't just throw out his argument like that. It is pefectly acceptable to make an argument based on a analogy and this is even performed in the realm of philosophy.


.

I'm not trying to put words in other peoples mouths but I think what they are really saying is that if you simply look at the cost of production of a kit then GW is making a huge profit on that kit. Now obviously GW as a company has other associated costs that they need to consider when pricing a kit like their retail chain costs etc etc. But that doesn't change the perception that someone is paying $75 for something that might only cost $5 to produce. Those aren't exact numbers but they illustrate the cost.

My concern is that you may be correct that GW cannot stop the cycle at this point because they need to increase costs in order to offset falling interest in their IP. But either way perpetual increasing of the price will eventually kill the company. Especially considering there are not only cheaper alternatives for your hobby dollar but perhaps even more importantly alternatives that don't treat their customers so poorly.

I imagine people in 3rd world countries trying to buy GW stuff. Its going to be a game for rich people.

I would imagine those in the third world have bigger things to worry about than Toy Soldiers.

That said I do see posters from Southern Europe so YMMV?

Speaking for the third world...

Obviously when you're below the povery line you can't even think of playing miniature wargaming. Most of the people who play it here are rich. I can afford it right now because I don't have a family to support, and I'm somewhere in the middle class.

It would also explain why only a handful of people do wargaming here. It's hard to justify to your family why your hobby is so expensive.

I think its important to look beyond the price per minature.

As this is not the only factor in the percived value for money , which is the MAIN point.

A collector-painter may be happy to pay Studio Mc Vey £50 for a limited edition single minature, becuase the 'awsomnes of the sculpt' is so apealing to them they think it is very good value for money.
But they wouldnt buy a box of 10 for £500!

As they only need ONE for display.

Looking at Mantic Games at the other end of the spectrum.
They sell an army box with 140 minatures in for £99.
These minatures are not good enough for individual display,(IMO,) but they are great for playing a war game with massed ranks of troops.As an army they look great painted up.
(And have the rules and all the army lists included in the boxed set.)
These are obviously for gamers to play games with...
(To buy the same amount of minatures and rule book and army list from GW plc costs over £300!BTW)

Collectors will buy whatever minature takes thier fancy, as its value is subjective to them.(You like what you like its as simple as that.Someone thought the Pumbagor and Chaos Ogres
were good!)

Why dont customers moan about other companies prices?

Well becuase the collectors just buy what they want from where they want when they want.They dont see the point in complaining as they buy so few minatures compared to gamers.
(Collectors dont buy 5 x SM tac boxed sets for example.But maybe just one character model)

Gamers probably feel the other companies actualy care about the game play , and new editions are to improve the game, not just an excuse to sell you more product at inflated prices!
And they get direct feed back on other companies web sites, from the game developers etc.

GW plc shut thier own forums down .

The PERCIVED value for money , for a gamer is...
How much cash outlay & how much time spent preparing minatures , before they get to play a full sized game.
Compared to how good the game play/rules set is for the game.

No wonder GW plc is loosing sales volumes faster and faster each year..

'GW plc is investing heavily in plastic productions to lower the cost of entry to our wonderful hobby.This is the way to grow our buisness and delight our customers.'
Maximising the economies of scale , inherrant bonus of plastic production.

Then changes to...

'Irrespctive of material the minatures are made from, they are worth the same to our loyal GW customers.'
Why change to plastic production if you are NOT going to maximise the economies of scale?

Selling less and less with greater mark up, only works for luxury items where the prestige of ownership makes up the percived value for money.
It does NOT apply to plastic toy soldiers .

Lanrak wrote:
Selling less and less with greater mark up, only works for luxury items where the prestige of ownership makes up the percived value for money.
It does NOT apply to plastic toy soldiers .

Works for some designer labels. Make stuff cheap in a sweat shop and then sell is for some vast amounts to kids who are obsessed with being brand-loyal. In fact targeting kids with over-priced stuff in the manner of designer-labels explains a lot about some of GW's approaches. Their push for customers to be GW purist in their games for a start, and a hatred of any sort of competition.

Howard A Treesong wrote: Their push for customers to be GW purist in their games for a start, and a hatred of any sort of competition.

I don't see PP or Mantic promoting 3rd parties or acknowledging that their game is designed to be used with anything but THIER brand...

I am not sure any company 'likes' thier competition either. I am not sure how this argument that GW promotes their models and markets them as if in a vacuum as that is fairly common to not acknowledge your competitors. I don't see any other mini companies other than 3rd companies acknowledging or wanting their customers to play anything but their game and their game alone.

nkelsch wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote: Their push for customers to be GW purist in their games for a start, and a hatred of any sort of competition.

I don't see PP or Mantic promoting 3rd parties or acknowledging that their game is designed to be used with anything but THIER brand...

I am not sure any company 'likes' thier competition either. I am not sure how this argument that GW promotes their models and markets them as if in a vacuum as that is fairly common to not acknowledge your competitors. I don't see any other mini companies other than 3rd companies acknowledging or wanting their customers to play anything but their game and their game alone.

Because those games don't leave niches to be filled by 3rd parties? And PP and Mantic both actually do promote and partner with at least one third party, just not for models. They both have a working relationship with Battlefoam, and I've seen advertisements for them in No Quarter. In the past PP had an official partnership with Gale Force Nine, which I'm still sorry they didn't keep up, those dice tins were awesome.

derek wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote: Their push for customers to be GW purist in their games for a start, and a hatred of any sort of competition.

I don't see PP or Mantic promoting 3rd parties or acknowledging that their game is designed to be used with anything but THIER brand...

I am not sure any company 'likes' thier competition either. I am not sure how this argument that GW promotes their models and markets them as if in a vacuum as that is fairly common to not acknowledge your competitors. I don't see any other mini companies other than 3rd companies acknowledging or wanting their customers to play anything but their game and their game alone.

Because those games don't leave niches to be filled by 3rd parties? And PP and Mantic both actually do promote and partner with at least one third party, just not for models. They both have a working relationship with Battlefoam, and I've seen advertisements for them in No Quarter. In the past PP had an official partnership with Gale Force Nine, which I'm still sorry they didn't keep up, those dice tins were awesome.

I got you, if you pretend you are the entirety of the hobby like PP and Mantic from day one and keep the rules limited to the models you produce at the time you are ok. If you release rules for models that call for conversions like GW, you have to acknowledge 3rd parties or people get all angry. But it is ok for mantic and PP to market in a vacuum because they have no "holes" to exploit by 3rd parties.I really see no difference between the 3 companies in how they sell their minis and how they market thier models are the only models that exist for their games.

There is a reason GW deleted the rules for blood bowl star players and is going to a system of not releasing a codex without 100% of the models.

Partnering with a foam company... Last time I checked, making foam cases was not a hobby. Foam cases are not a hobby any more than there are paint brush collectors or tape measure conventions.

nkelsch wrote:
I got you, if you pretend you are the entirety of the hobby like PP and Mantic from day one and keep the rules limited to the models you produce at the time you are ok. If you release rules for models that call for conversions like GW, you have to acknowledge 3rd parties or people get all angry. But it is ok for mantic and PP to market in a vacuum because they have no "holes" to exploit by 3rd parties.I really see no difference between the 3 companies in how they sell their minis and how they market thier models are the only models that exist for their games.

There is a reason GW deleted the rules for blood bowl star players and is going to a system of not releasing a codex without 100% of the models.

Partnering with a foam company... Last time I checked, making foam cases was not a hobby. Foam cases are not a hobby any more than there are paint brush collectors or tape measure conventions.

I don't think either of those companies pretend they're the entirety of the hobby, perhaps you can provide an example where they've done so, as GW does when it labels itself the GW Hobby? Also, since we don't have examples of third party minis for the other games, mostly because they're completely unnecessary as those companies don't leave unfilled holes in their ranges for years at a time, it's impossible to know how they'd react, if at all. We've seen how GW reacts, though, and they don't generally come out looking better for it, regardless if they were right or wrong, which I have no qualification to speak to, perception by their customer base is a large part of their market presence. They, or any company, can make the best product out there, but if they alienate enough customers, they're not going to get very far. By your last line, though I'm wondering if you have any interest in a real conversation on the matter, or if you'd rather just resort to rhetoric. You claimed that PP and Mantic don't promote third parties, you didn't specifically mention that you were only speaking of miniatures. I can't think of any miniatures company that is out there promoting other mini companies products, other than those 3rd party add on places that require the main kit, that doesn't mean there isn't room for other partnerships.

derek wrote:
I can't think of any miniatures company that is out there promoting other mini companies products

Mantic and Avatars of War:

http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Kings-of-War/Avatars-of-War.html

Also, if you get into historicals, Warlord and Empress have some sort of agreement for their Zulu wars stuff, and alot of the guns/baggage the Perrys use is by someone else if I recall correctly.

As for the main discussion, as I've posted before, anyone who thinks that GW's high prices have any justification other than "they can, so they do" should look at the Perry WotR plastic boxes. Just as much/more bits as I've ever seen in a GW box set (though admittedly I haven't bought any recent releases), with just as much detail as the GW ones, hell, the Perry's sculpt for GW. Now if going through a third party to get the molds made and models produced still leaves the Perrys with profit after selling them at ~30USD/40 men, why the hell GW charges 25usd/10men is only because suckers keep paying it. Now I'm not going to come out and say I'll never buy anything GW again (recently tracked down just about everything I need that I can't use substitutes for to do every force for LotR), because they do occasionally produce some nice stuff, and if I don't need it in large numbers, I might splurge (so long as it isn't Finecast, but that's for another thread). But over 90% of my hobby budget will be going to people like the Perrys, Warlord, Mantic, Gripping Beast, etc, and when I do get GW stuff I won't be getting direct from them. Also, to put price rises in comparison: Since the release of the first Perry Plastics in 2008, their prices have gone up %20 (15->18 GBP) over 5 years, 4% per year avg. While GW's have gone up 300% over 11 years, 27% per year. (using the example of LotR plastics, when they started you could get 24 for 20 CAD IIRC, other examples may vary).

Great conversation guys, and some awesome points brought up. I agree that GW's policies are based in an old school mentality of moving units and maximizing profits. The problem is, they aren't selling sprockets here, they're selling a hobby that is essentially a community driven experience.

I think they are going to wake up to a rude reality when the ease of manufacturing that technology is bringing to the masses narrows the technical gap between them and the small business person.

Their aggressive pricing, lack of understanding of their customers and blindness to their competition are all going to hurt them long term, IMO.

I am posting parts of this conversation to our blog for our story tomorrow morning at www.frontlinegaming.org if any of you want to join in there. I thought it was a really interesting and informative discussion.

Mantic also sell Hasslefree minis through their webstore. Hell, they might not tacitly acknowledge it, but their entire range is designed to replace GW equivalents - just because Mantic have their own rulesets doesn't mean their raison d'etre is to be solely Mantic only; the company was founded by ex_GW staff looking to fill the gaps that GW has left behind/ignored.

Possibly the best example of thrid party support is Battlefront. They own Wargames Illustrated, loosely speaking the White Dwarf of historcial wargaming, and it is full of adverts for other companies and other companies products are extensively (usually exclusively) featured in articles. They even run adverts by some companies that produce direct competition to their own products. Its not full support by any means (it is very rare to have a WWII article that doesn't feature FoW and these are always at a different scale).

I will say however that GW being a far larger company obviously has more to lose in acknowledging the existence of competitors, be it through even something simple like terrain manufacturing. When was the last time you read in WD about something for a conversion/terrain building being available from a 'good local model shop'? It's quite possible to buy a GW gaming board, paint and texture it with GW goods, then buy GW miniatures and paints without ever stepping outside the shop.

It is obviously in the interest of the company for this to be the case. Nkelsch, I think this is probably why (as you pointed out in another thread) everyone seems to throw their toys out of the pram if GW even accidentally post so much as a grain of flock from another manufacturer in a picture on the website - there is an actual, concerted effort on GW's part to maintain a complete domination of the market place, and for customers (mainly young kids who step into their shops) to be completely unaware that there is any other manufacturer doing the same thing. In fact, the company's continuing success depends on it.

But how much of this is deliberate, or just an accidental part of the company's marketing strategy? Even Rick Priestly said when he left GW (about a year ago) in an interview that their was absolutely no recognition of any competitors within the marketplace from the upper brass of the company. This is why there is such a disparity between the price of their games and miniatures and those of other companies, and they don't feel the need to significantly update or try and bring exciting new products to the market. Which of course they can get away with while they have such a strong high-street presence and are still the largest player in the industry. However, I do think it is a dangerous path to tread in light of the added communication and advertising methods made possible by the internet and other technology.

I would love GW to start fighting back, and to start taking customers back that they have lost to PP, Corvus Belli and others. Don't just trot out the same stuff, year after year with an extra nob or whistle added or removed (which 6th edition will almost certainly be) - use their position as the biggest company in the marketplace, and the capital they possess, to start making genuinely new and exciting games. Push miniature design forwards with new 3D printing technology and start investigating pre-painted to draw even more people into wargaming, and even more use of Smart phone and Tablet technology. The creation of the downloadable codex was an important step, and they need to keep up that momentum - keep pushing forward, and shake off the 'archaic dinosaur' feeling surrounding the company, where it appears to be slowly slipping into the mire.

The beer analogies are interesting on this thread but from a painter collector point of view looking at finecast you should have been comparing beer with urine...

NAVARRO wrote:The beer analogies are interesting on this thread but from a painter collector point of view looking at finecast you should have been comparing beer with urine...

+++That was his point. There are people here up in arms talking about boycotts or whatever over items thay don't even need to survive but when it comes to other more essential costs they will sit back and do nothing when the cost goes up. Shouldn't they be more worried and more proactive about those costs going up that they DO NEED?+++

*not sure who typed this, someone on page 1 or 3 or something:
Da point is, largely people whom DO jump up and down about the increases to cost of living etc, are plainly ignored, prices increase, bills need paying yet where does that magic genie bottle or endless sack of gold come into the equation when less $$$ = less stuff (regardless if needed or "wanted", some could argue that want leads to need or vice versa. ie you want a new LR, it gives you some escapism from the dreary humdrum grind, therefore one of your "NEEDS" has been met on the Hobby side of things via spending time being creative, and gaining benefit from doing so *something concrete* instead of say Complaining about X,Y,Z)?????


Because in real life if you don't have something you go WITHOUT, and due to increases in inflation decreases to personal expendable income mean's what little was to be had ie food on the table or gas in the fuel tank is all that much less than previously (in most cases further pushing the economic DT even further *ie making middle class the new lower class* sorry may be offtopic, but alot of commentators live in LALALA land)

realistically this means that the Cd or book or WHATEVER is now out of your reach. i'm a wargamer since 1997, some could say i am heavily Vested/rather large interest in this hobby (GW and others), i'm far from being rich, i'm on disability pension i own alot of models, but this isn't about me (or my miniatures expenditure, rather being pushed to the side....what my loyalty means JACK ALL, aren't us gamers allowed to vent on a online forum which undoubtly the topic thread would thus delve into against for or personal bias/opinion). it's about the hobby that so many of us ENJOY, yet REALISTICALLY are pissed off, that being a loyal supporter means NOTHING.


since 1997 i have personally bought just under $12000 from various gaming companies (my choice/my money). i did/done so because i ENJOY gaming. increasing prices is only going to see more people outside the hobby arena.

it's a rich persons hobby that i hear, i cry BS to that. you need money to play yeah sure, but i'm barely scraping poverty line yet if i can scrape through for 15 years below mininum wage and still wargame then the rest of you can/should quit whinging about others whinging.

the others are whinging/complaining because the hobby that they grew up with is now too FREAKING EXPENSIVE. Note: if people cannot understand this in this context really do live in LALA land (no offence to anyone in particular, as i said earlier it's not about you me or your gaming buddies, it's about THE hobby WE enjoy!!! and being priced out ) . this bascially applies to food, prostitutes, gas, PC, Whatever makes your life mean something "MORE", something to say, uh....that this 15 yrs hasn't been a waste of TIME EFFORT AND MONEY....and i know i'm not alone in my assertation of this fact!!!!!!


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sorry for not quoting, read each and every comment, and due to running on SOLAR, my laptop has limited battery so thus i cannot (at this time validate whom said what when or how, i'm sure you all get my drift/point)

@Orimedies1000.

If you could assign breaks in your long and singular post you could get your point across much easier to the masses to read.

Well becuase the collectors just buy what they want from where they want when they want.They dont see the point in complaining as they buy so few minatures compared to gamers.
(Collectors dont buy 5 x SM tac boxed sets for example.But maybe just one character model)

This, and this is why I'm currently OK with Privateer Press's infantry models being so expensive and why I still feel Warmachine is a cheaper game. Sure, you could play smaller games of Warhammer, but ultimately, you don't get the real meat of the game game until about 1500 points.

Also, I did some math, and the models in my hypothetical 35 point, 36 model Warmachine army are, on average, less expensive than the models in my hypothetical 1500 point, 42 model Space Marine Army. ($11.61/model on average for Space Marines compared to $8.78/model on average for Cryx, and this is even using some very expensive Cryx infantry sets). This is largely due to the outrageous monetary price of Warhammer 40K vehicles compared to their relatively low point cost.

I'm not going to say that Privateer Press is the BEST value in tabletop gaming (it certainly is not), but it's still, IMO, better than GW for non-collectors. I know that I don't buy any models I don't intend to use in a game of some form, and neither does anyone I know. GW claims that a large number of their customers are collectors who do not play games, and so would just buy models to paint them and presumably display them, but I do wonder what percentage of their customers that applies to. Certainly, there are a lot of people who enjoy collecting and painting miniatures just for the pleasure of doing it, but are they really enough to keep GW's miniatures division going? And even if they are, if prices continue to increase every year, they will eventually reach a tipping point where they won't be a good value even for those collectors.

I assume GW has a plan for that, whether it's to keep prices steady at that point and see how things go, or pack up their miniatures division and simply print money by licensing their IPs to other companies.

Basically, GW is a decent value for collectors, but I'm not convinced that the "collector" is enough to keep GW afloat if it alienates too many non-collectors. Obviously this hasn't happened yet, but it will at some point if they continue to follow this pattern.

DarthOvious wrote:A Landraider over costs £35. The RRP for an Arcantrik Force Generator is £59.99. http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/retribution-of-scyrah-arcantrik-force-generator.html

Just how big is this Force Generator? I don't know because I don't own one, but it better be bloody big if it's £60. It doesn't look like the size of a super heavy but then looks are pretty deceptive.

Some of the other stuff looks slightly cheaper, but nothing to get worked up about in my opinion. I know for a fact that the warjacks aren't as big as Dreadnoughts and I've also seen the models and they look slightly smaller. The rule books also cost exactly the same. £25 for either a codex or a warmachine army book.

I think it is a fairly safe assumption that the majority of people buying wargames get into it to play wargames. Sure there will be people who just collect individual figures, but they're not the majority or the norm.
To play 40k according to the rules as laid out in the rulebook (which again, I think is the way most people will play their games), you need 2 troops and 1 HQ, a codex, and the rulebook.
Sure, you can modify the rules to play only a single model against each other, but I really don't feel this is a valid argument: you can do anything you want with the rules, you can play with coke cans and slips of paper; but thats not really relevant to anything. Most people (especially the newbies who are turned away by high prices) don't know that Mordheim/Necromunda exist. Hell, I had a conversation the other day with someone who had been playing GW for 5 years and he didn't know what they were. The only sensible way to discuss the cost of playing a game is to play the game as it is intended, by the rules.
For most 40k armies, this means buying 2 boxes of troops, 1 HQ box/blister, a codex and the rulebook all separately. You can buy the battalion, which gives you maybe 500pts, and generally gives you one box for free.
For all PP armies, this means buying a starter box, and (perhaps) the main rulebook (starter sets come with a quick-rules set). There is no need to buy the army rule book, as each model comes with its own stat card.

However, 40k is not designed, intended or marketed to be played at the level of 1x2. You can see that in the modifications needed to make Combat Patrol work. A real game of 40k is designed to be played at around 1500+-500 points (you can see this by the examples given in rulebooks, by the white dwarf, and especially by tournaments). Most people don't attend tournaments; but the ones that will influence the defacto standard sized game in their clubs and stores because they want to get practice. Again, you *can* play other ways, but it is not the way most people play their games. To get a 40k army up to 1500 points requires significant investment, as each box set you buy represents somewhere between 100-200pts on average (with some individual models like Crisis Suits being ~50pts, and some deathstar terminator units being ~300). I'd say a conservative estimate is an additional 7 boxes of stuff to get up to 1500pts, and thats without expensive finecast elites or heroes.
Warmachine is not intended to be played at the level of their starter box either. But it gives you 20points, where tournament games are played at perhaps 50points. That war engine costs 10pts, fully one fifth of a largeish tournament army (and it gives poor points per dollar compared to most warmachine units). Most large warjacks cost between 8-11 points. You buy maybe 4 boxes to flesh out your starter kit into a tournament-sized army.
I don't think anyone is really claiming that PP is cheaper, per model. But ignoring that you need less models to play Warmachine than to play GW (according to the games' rules and the common standard army size) is deceitful.

The battle engines are also large resin pieces. Comparing it to a Land Raider isn't quite right. But you can easily compare it to the likes of Azag.

Adam LongWalker wrote:@Orimedies1000.

If you could assign breaks in your long and singular post you could get your point across much easier to the masses to read.

duly noted. will do as such from as of now-ish. thanks for pointing that out