Un-Education in America

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**Frazzled**

Thats interesting. Theoretically that means - if your children follow in your footsteps - they can't attend univesity or a good skilled trades school. Welcome to the wonderful world of retail....forever. Thanks dad!

**BlapBlapBlap**

kraken88 wrote:Google " Ian's story" to see what a vaccine is capable of. Im not willing to risk that for my son. Sory to the op. Im done.

Note how they state that they are not anti-vaccine, but wish for more development and more information. Not only is this an anomaly in the standard reactions, but it has still not stopped their parents from supporting the vaccines.

So, you're saying you'd rather expose your son to the infections that coat every surface on this planet with no sort of defense against it whatsoever than try to prevent it from happening and possibly (as in, 1 in several thousand at least) find he has an adverse reaction to it? I really don't want to be harsh, but education has taught us that vaccines are generally safe, and that immunologists are advancing them and making them safer all the time.

**kronk**

Frazzled wrote:Do universities now require proof of immunization as well? I think so but...its been a looooooong while.

They did when I went in 1994. I had to re-up my tetnis booster and take the MMR (Measles/Mumps/R-word I can't recall).

**BlapBlapBlap**

R word would probably be Rubella, I think.

**Kovnik Obama**

Weird, I don't remember having to give a copy of my health portfolio to the 2 Unis I attended...

**SilverMK2**

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Even if it contains pathogens, they have been weakened to the point where you will only get mild symptoms of the actual illness, and in return your immune system has optimized to combat the disease if it should strike again. Deathly ill you say? Children are prone to exaggeration. If you have friends in the medical profession, what field? If they are people such as busboys or nurses, they won't be specifically trained and do not have a full comprehension of this. An immunologist, however, is fully aware of the risks involved with it. It has been refined from the days of a small pinprick topped with pus to a fully developed vaccine.

It is not always the "vaccine" itself that is the problem but can be the carrier or some other aspect of the vaccine which can trigger reactions/complications in some patients. Just as most people can get stung by a bee and be fine after a few minutes swearing, there are some who get stung and are dead within seconds of being stung because they have a reaction to the sting and everything in between.

Generally very rare and to my knowledge getting rarer all the time with increased QC, design, testing etc.

The problem is that people get some anecdotal link between injection X and problem Y and run with it even if there is no statistically significant (or actual) link what-so-ever.

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Kovnik Obama wrote:Weird, I don't remember having to give a copy of my health portfolio to the 2 Unis I attended...

I may have had to at the first university I went to... pretty sure I had to but it was a while ago

The second one (that I am currently at) I didn't have to.

And as to the safety of the MMR - I've had that particular injection about 3-5 times now so I could fight super sized mumps with no problem now

**Frazzled**

Kovnik Obama wrote:Weird, I don't remember having to give a copy of my health portfolio to the 2 Unis I attended...

Remember in the US universities may be different than what you're thinking of, or alternatively, they may not be required in CD (already assumed to have).

**kraken88**

I want to say one last thing please. I would like to apologize for calling the theory of evolution and american history "crap" in my original post. I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own. I am very sorry I if I offended anyone. I am not a scientist and all I can base my beliefs on are my own feelings and personal experience. I have nothing against people that send their kids to school or vaccinate or believe in evolution. Again, I'm sorry if I came off that way.

**SilverMK2**

kraken88 wrote:I want to say one last thing please. I would like to apologize for calling the theory of evolution and american history "crap" in my original post. I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own. I am very sorry I if I offended anyone. I am not a scientist and all I can base my beliefs on are my own feelings and personal experience. I have nothing against people that send their kids to school or vaccinate or believe in evolution. Again, I'm sorry if I came off that way.

We're all friends here... sorry if any of the replies came off as insulting. I think that people can be a little incredulous if they see people with your kind of views and almost assume they are being trolled and react in kind.

**Kovnik Obama**

Frazzled wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:Weird, I don't remember having to give a copy of my health portfolio to the 2 Unis I attended...

Remember in the US universities may be different than what you're thinking of, or alternatively, they may not be required in CD (already assumed to have).

Yeah that's what I assumed... But it would make sense... Anyhow, with the frequency I give blood to Hema-Quebec (yes, socialized blood drops = marxists vampires) I would probably be informed if I missed any important shot... Damn I should probably go see a doctor, I'm not sure I've seen one in the last 5 years...

**Chongara**

Kovnik Obama wrote:Weird, I don't remember having to give a copy of my health portfolio to the 2 Unis I attended...

Mine required it. It was a pain in the butt to get 'em too.

**Melissia**

Vimes wrote:You should recheck what theory in science actually means, though.

A thousand times over. There are an unfortunately large number of ignorant people (often rabid evangelists) who really don't understand scientific terms. A scientific theory is “a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.”, to provide an exact quote from the national academy of sciences. The standards for considering something a theory rather than a hypothesis are at times staggeringly high. Hell, even a hypothesis is better than the usual use of the term "theory".

LoneLictor wrote:And why you think vaccines are so bad?

Because he doesn't love his children?\

Jokes aside, ignorance, mostly.

Chongara wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Do universities now require proof of immunization as well? I think so but...its been a looooooong while.
Yes.

I think so. And they even give warnings when a flu or other disease has been discovered in a student on campus, too.

**Hordini**

Howard A Treesong wrote:Crazy people who need to shelter their children from those 'dangerous ideas' like evolution and vaccination programmes are the main reason to question the wisdom of allowing home education at all. It's scary the 'education' some children receive.

You know home-schooled kids have to meet certain standards too, right? There are regulations, and in Ohio at least, they're supposed to be evaluated evaluated every year. Sometimes students slip through the cracks, but that happens in public schools too. I've known home-schooled students who were extremely well educated (far better than the average public or private school student) and decently socialized, and I've also known home-schoolers who could barely read. Amazingly, there is a pretty wide spectrum of quality of education...just like in the public school system.

I'm absolutely not advocating sheltering children from ideas like evolution and not vaccinating children. Just pointing out that that's not always why people choose to home-school their kids, and that home education isn't always a bad thing.

**Palindrome**

Frazzled wrote:Do universities now require proof of immunization as well? I think so but...its been a looooooong while.

The first one I went to did but the second one didn't. My current job certainly does.

**Ahtman**

Palindrome wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Do universities now require proof of immunization as well? I think so but...its been a looooooong while.

The first one I went to did but the second one didn't. My current job certainly does.

If you listed on your application to the second University that you had been to the first they may not have required it because they knew you already had to turn them in to get into the other school.

**Frazzled**

SilverMK2 wrote:
kraken88 wrote:I want to say one last thing please. I would like to apologize for calling the theory of evolution and american history "crap" in my original post. I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own. I am very sorry I if I offended anyone. I am not a scientist and all I can base my beliefs on are my own feelings and personal experience. I have nothing against people that send their kids to school or vaccinate or believe in evolution. Again, I'm sorry if I came off that way.

We're all friends here... sorry if any of the replies came off as insulting. I think that people can be a little incredulous if they see people with your kind of views and almost assume they are being trolled and react in kind.

No insults meant. I do pray that you reconsider the vaccination stuff. With open borders many of the illnesses long forgotten here have re-arrived. GC came down with whooping cough as did many of her classmates when someone came in with it from another country.

**sebster**

Easy E wrote:No argument from me there. I have no doubt making an "All-things, to All-People" system would be pretty hard.

I keep hearing about moving ot a post-industrial education system, but what does that even mean? Anybody got any ideas?

At it's most basic level it means moving away from the first half of the 20th century model of education we've still basically got. Instead of kids moving from one grade to the next you open things up, have kids move to different groups based on their ability in that task, not based on age group.

Its basically a crap load of ideas that are going to be tried in varying amounts in different places around the world, to see which ones work, in the hope that the more successful ones will be used more often.

The problem with this is that education is politically sensitive and very bureaucratic, basically lots of parents have 'common sense' ideas about how education ought to be which doesn't line up with what actually works best, and at the same time teachers are inlined to keep doing what's worked well enough for them instead of change. Which means just because something develops a proven track record works doesn't mean bringing it in will actually be very practical.

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Kovnik Obama wrote:Couldn't you oppose vaccination but still send your kid to school??? I mean, I'm thinking about homeschooling my kids (if I ever get any), but isn't it silly to keep them at home because of something that happens once every 6 months?

Vaccinations are less about the flu and more about measles, mumps, hooping cough, stuff that can kill you, and killed many hundreds of thousands of people before we developed vaccinations.

It sucks for kids to be denied access to public school because his parents trusted some quack anti-vaccination nutters, but other people's kids don't deserve to have their health placed at risk because of it.

On top of things, even if you disagree with the theory of evolution as a representation of the development of species, why would you want you kids to be badly informed about it? Knowing about silly theories can help you a lot, especially if you want your kid to become proficient with science...

Yeah, absolutely. The idea that you personally find something disagreeable therefore you'll stop your kid ever hearing about it... well it pretty much explains the attitude you need to doubt evolution in the first place.

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Kovnik Obama wrote:Ah, oki, well, it makes sense. Anyhow, don't we have at least a century of vaccinations to give us a history of the bad side effects? Even with medical history being private, I'm sure that there would be some way of tracking pretty accuratly the problematic cases?

We know very well how we've managed to get rid of diseases we now vaccinate for. There were 21,000 new sufferers of polio in 1952. With the introduction of the polio vaccine in 1955, the number of cases dropped to 65 by 1965. Whooping cough killed about 8,000 kids a year in the USA in the 1930s and 40s, with the introduction of a vaccine there has been just a handful of recorded deaths in the last 60 years.

The science is clear. Some people choose to ignore science, for a variety of reasons.

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Vulcan wrote:It's like expecting a Tau Firewarrior to beat a Demon Prince in close combat EVERY TIME because you saw a battle report on the internet where it happened this one time...

To be fair, that's actually something you see on the internet a lot; "I saw this amazing thing happen once so you're wrong to tell me the odds of it happening are unlikely." A lot of people are just generally wired to be really stupid when it comes to calculating probability.

Of course, in games of Warhammer it's a pretty harmless thing, if a little frustrating if the guy happens to be on your side. When it comes to vaccination that stupidity is putting kid's lives at risk, so it's a bit different.

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kraken88 wrote:I want to say one last thing please. I would like to apologize for calling the theory of evolution and american history "crap" in my original post. I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own. I am very sorry I if I offended anyone. I am not a scientist and all I can base my beliefs on are my own feelings and personal experience. I have nothing against people that send their kids to school or vaccinate or believe in evolution. Again, I'm sorry if I came off that way.

Thankyou for the call to calm things down. Sorry that I and other posters were so aggressive.

And when it comes to evolution, it's fine to just agree to disagree. Science will march on learning and discovering regardless, it doesn't need belief.

But vaccination is not just about everyone getting to have their own beliefs. There are real consequences when people don't vaccinate their children. Deaths from polio, whooping cough and other diseases are more likely with every parent who decides not to vaccinate their kid.

**Melissia**

Mn, for what he did with the Polio vaccine, Jonas Salk could probably be made in to a saint....

At any rate, the particular anti-vaccine movement I'm thinking of is based off of a sad person lashing out at whatever she can to cope with her son's autism, instead of clear thinking.

**Palindrome**

kraken88 wrote: I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own.

I'm sorry thats not how it works. Just as how everyones opinion is not actually right some peoples beliefs are build upon ignorance and they need to be challenged. In this case it sounds very much like you will damage your childs health and future prospects and I simply can't support that.

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Ahtman wrote:
Palindrome wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Do universities now require proof of immunization as well? I think so but...its been a looooooong while.

The first one I went to did but the second one didn't. My current job certainly does.

If you listed on your application to the second University that you had been to the first they may not have required it because they knew you already had to turn them in to get into the other school.

Its possible but as it was 10 years previously some of my vaccinations could have lapsed, My Hep B status at least should have been asked given my line of work.

**Goliath**

Frazzled wrote:The boy has Assberger's (I think thats what it was called).

It's "Aspergers" not assburgers or assburgers or asparagus or asspie or any of the other names that used to get shouted at me

(sorry if that seemed curt, it's just that the name being gotten wrong really annoys me)

**Frazzled**

Lighten up Francis, its a family joke.

**dogma**

Chongara wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Do universities now require proof of immunization as well? I think so but...its been a looooooong while.

Yes.

**Easy E**

Chongara wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:Weird, I don't remember having to give a copy of my health portfolio to the 2 Unis I attended...

Mine required it. It was a pain in the butt to get 'em too.

Did that deserve a rimshot?

**Chongara**

sebster wrote:
But vaccination is not just about everyone getting to have their own beliefs. There are real consequences when people don't vaccinate their children. Deaths from polio, whooping cough and other diseases are more likely with every parent who decides not to vaccinate their kid.

... and not just the deaths of children whose parents are making those awful decisions, but every child out there who can't be vaccinated. They're basically forcing every kid out there with a weak immune system to play Russian roulette because of their insane belief in a conspiracy theory with no real evidence backing it up.

**A Town Called Malus**

kraken88 wrote:

Trust me death from a vaccine is not a minor risk. You need to research vaccines for yourself before you pass judgment. Vaccines are deadly, its a fact. I didn't just Google this stuff, I have many friends and family in the medical field. Do me a favor and look up some statistics on how many doctors vaccinate their own kids. I will be waiting for your reply.

As someone who has had pretty much every vaccine under the sun (its required when you have a transplant), including some after the transplant (Influenza) when my immune system is weakened from immunosuppressant drugs to prevent rejection, I think I can safely say that the risk of death from a vaccine is incredibly small.

To suggest otherwise is to show gross misunderstanding of just how rigorous and strict medical testing guidelines are. Did you know that if aspirin, one of the most widely used painkillers and blood thinners in the world, were to be discovered today it probably wouldn't pass the tests to be considered fit for human use, due to its possible side effects?

As for the good from vaccination, when was the last time you heard about someone dying from Smallpox?

**Easy E**

Here was an interesting article about education reform in American....

FiVe Myths about teachign Science and Math in America
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/06/science_education_myths_that_keep_us_from_fixing_the_system_.html

Science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) education is critical in the high-tech global marketplace that has replaced the industrial economy. Unfortunately, American students perform poorly on international assessments of math and science knowledge. In 2005, Bill Gates said, “When I compare our high schools to what I see when I’m traveling abroad, I am terrified for our workforce of tomorrow.”

One challenge to reforming our educational system is that politicians and voters think they know what’s wrong with American schools—after all, they went through the system themselves. But some of those common-sense opinions are simply wrong, and these false assumptions undermine much of the public debate about how to improve education.

Advertisement

Here are five of the myths that are making it difficult for us to fix science education.

1. American schools have deteriorated in the past 30 or 40 years, as demonstrated by our poor performance on international assessments of math and science achievement. We need to restore American elementary and secondary education to their previous glory.

FACT: The mantra from many educators and policy-makers for a quarter-century has been to lament the decline of American schools. Even the classic 1983 report “A Nation at Risk,” which sounded the alarm about the American education system, says, “What was unimaginable a generation ago has begun to occur—others are matching and surpassing our educational attainments.” But this is a flawed assessment of our past.

The fact that we score poorly now does not mean that our educational system has deteriorated. In fact, it was always bad. Our high school students have always scored at or near the bottom, even as our college and university system was, and is, the best in the world. In a 1965 mathematics assessment, 18 years prior to “A Nation at Risk,” the United States placed last among all nations tested. The other nations achieved mean scores from 36.4 to 21.6. The U.S. score: 13.8.

Incorrectly believing that American students used to excel hampers our reform efforts. It makes the challenge of improving STEM education seem easier than it is.

2. If a student performs poorly, it’s because she doesn’t have the aptitude for math and science.

FACT: Perhaps the most important research finding to emerge from international comparisons of math and science achievement is this: When American students struggle, teachers and parents attribute this failure to low aptitude. When students in many top-ranked nations, like Japan, don’t perform well, teachers and parents conclude that they have not worked hard enough. Aptitude has been overrated as a factor in achievement. Hard work and practice are more important.

3. Curriculum reform is the key to higher achievement in math and science.

FACT: Ever since Sputnik, the federal government and other funders have invested huge sums in curriculum reform. The best-known such effort was the School Mathematics Study Group effort, aka the “new math.” The idea was to teach schoolchildren theoretical math concepts, like set theory. But the students couldn’t get it, and their parents could not help them. The new math was about as successful as New Coke.

Since the 1950s, there have been a number of other massive, expensive curriculum reform efforts about physics, biology, and calculus, among other subjects. Unfortunately, these reforms have not substantially improved the achievement of American students

Better that your child should be taught by an exciting, creative teacher using an outdated text than by a boring or hostile teacher using the latest curriculum.

4. OK, well-prepared teachers are important. We need a massive recruiting drive to attract the top college graduates into teaching.

FACT: We need more excellent teachers, and attracting top students into STEM teaching helps. The problem, however, is not recruiting people into teaching. The problem is keeping them in teaching. Teachers work very hard. They are not paid enough. They endure great stress daily. These factors drive many out of the profession. A study by the National Education Association found that the five year dropout rate for new teachers is 50 percent.

It’s like pouring water into a sieve. We must develop and implement effective strategies for retaining the talented people who choose this profession. Most important is professional development, the process of renewing and upgrading teacher knowledge and competencies.

5. Only the top students should consider becoming math and science teachers. No C students allowed.
FACT: Excellent teaching requires more than simply possessing knowledge. You have to know how to communicate this knowledge. You have to remember what it was like not to understand the concept. This is why, sometimes, C students can teach others better than A students. They remember their initial confusion as they struggled to master the concept. The A students “got it” immediately and often have a hard time relating to students who don’t get it.

I am not suggesting that we favor C students over A students. We need talented teachers who thoroughly understand the subject matter. But occasionally a C student becomes an excellent teacher—and therein lies the last lesson:

Fostering student achievement ultimately is not about who the teacher is; it’s about how he or she teaches.