Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Negator80 wrote:

This isnt a wm vs 40k thing. This is good information for prospective players based on logical comparisons.

Also guys, comon, stick to the context and use your heads. Of course it 'can' be more expensive if you buy more; the point is what it takes to 'get into it'. Thats what prospective players want to know. Telling them 'Yeah its cheap until you buy more stuff' is a terribly stupid and pointless comment.

Telling them "WM is ALWAYS cheaper than 40k" is a stupid and pointless comment.

No one is arguing that WM is cheaper than 40k, especially in terms of starting up. Prospective players can look up the prices themselves and see the prices for themselves. However, "cheaper than 40k" also does not necessarily mean "cheap to play", as that $50 dollar investment only nets you basic rules and a bare minimum force, you'll need a rulebook in some form (which you can get off e-bay for not too much) and some infantry to get a solid start, which can end up being anywhere between $85-$100, depending on where you buy stuff.

I like WM/H, and I want people to start it. But it's still an expensive hobby, even if it's cheaper to start than 40k.

Negator80 wrote:

This isnt a wm vs 40k thing. This is good information for prospective players based on logical comparisons.

Also guys, comon, stick to the context and use your heads. Of course it 'can' be more expensive if you buy more; the point is what it takes to 'get into it'. Thats what prospective players want to know. Telling them 'Yeah its cheap until you buy more stuff' is a terribly stupid and pointless comment.

sadly, a lot of people make it out to be 40k v warmachine. its a shame really. 40k has its place, and its fans, and a lot of great conversion material!

to be fair, no one is saying its not cheap to get into, we are disagreeing with what YOU wrote above regarding it being cheap in the long run: It is cheap in the long run. fact. Stop lying to the posters interested in wm/h. please, dont play the game of pretending you didnt say that.

its as important to say "yes its cheap until you buy more stuff" if that is an accurate description of what the hobby is. warmachine is not cheaper, merely cheaper to start.

It IS cheaper, as has been proven by the math, which makes it not pointless and stupid. Unless math is not your forte.

Nobody said its not an expensive hobby.

Ah, i guess i missed typign in their 'cheaper then 40k'. cuz thats what i meant

We all know it's cheaper than 40k. Stop being obtuse.

It's cheap to start. That doesn't make it an inexpensive game.

Negator80 wrote:
Nobody said its not an expensive hobby.

actually, you did.

It is cheap in the long run. fact. Stop lying to the posters interested in wm/h.

page 3 of this thread. quoted multiple times. please dont pretend you didnt write it my friend. and please dont pretend its not there.

Negator80 wrote:It IS cheaper, as has been proven by the math, which makes it not pointless and stupid. Unless math is not your forte.

didnt i also show you where the math earler that shows quite the opposite of what you said, in that warmahordes can be very expensive? or did you blank it out and dismiss/ignore it? Just with Collossals, my Conquest, druids, ghetorix, and the warpwolf plastic, i'll be shelling out over £200 on a handful of models. thats a good third to a half or a 40k army as well! *goes looking. actually, what could i get for £200 in a GW store*

but if you really want me to do this?

i can do math too. and im almost terrified of the number that im gonna come up with. without even including the books (which is easily £200 sterling on top of everything else), and my checking prices against Maelstrom, i've spent about £1600 on my khador, and circle armies, with mercenary bits on the side over the last 3 1/2 years. dont forget the big splurge im gonna make soon as well. *shrug* 400pts of khador, and 180pts of hordes costs a bit! *shrug*

Negator80 wrote:
Ah, i guess i missed typign in their 'cheaper then 40k'. cuz thats what i meant

cyronicleech has it best. its cheaper to start, its cheaper to get into, and frankly, thats about it[u]. drop the flag waving please - its not needed. warmachine gets as expensive as 40k ever was. fact. and please dont try to deny it .

I just bought a decent brand new eHexeris army at a good discount last week and I can tell you right now that it wasn't cheap. I certainly got a lot more high-quality models and vehicles when I bought my Venomspam Dark Eldar (and that was at a smaller discount) for a similar price. The secondhand Warmachine market is also much smaller if you want to go the super discount route.

Saying Warmachine is cheaper as a blanket statement is misleading at best. Maybe at the battlebox/40K 1,000 point level the cost comparison is favorable. But above that the unit cost is comparable to Games Workshop, if not worse. A box of 6 daughters is about $33 retail (realistically $22 from a decent retailer after discount), a box of 10 Wyches (with WAY more stuff in the box) is $29 from the evil GW direct (I get them for c. $15 max via Ebay) and the PP miniature quality is much lower (not terrible by any means, but you can't even begin to compare the detail, and the PP plastic/resin stuff are still pretty bad). A heavy warbeast can run you into GW vehicle cost range pretty quick (the new plastic kits are a godsend though, if you spend the time to magnetize them).

Harping on the price is not to WarmaHordes advantage, whatever the hardcore fans want to delude themselves into thinking - especially as many local metas mainly do 35 or 50 point games which is quite a few models on the table. Concentrate on the rock solid rules, the amazing tactical gameplay, the faction balance, that sort of thing - THAT'S where Privateer absolutely deuces all over GW.

FFS guys, yeah, i didnt type what i was thinking. No, it's not cheap. Yes, its cheaper in the long run.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/454189.page

Every 2000 point army there is $800.00 or more. You can nearly buy a whole wm/h faction for that.

I guess the baseline control here is 'what does it take to play in an average tournament for both systems? 35-50 and 1500-2000'.

I'm not flag waving or trying to argue its a better game. im arguing with someone that said its more expensive. im just ocd nerding about it.

Auxellion wrote:Flying Hive Tyrant
15 Termagaunts in Spore
15 Termagaunts in Spore
15 Termagaunts in Spore
15 Termagaunts in Spore
5 Ymgarls
5 Ymgarls
2 Venomthropes in Spore
Trygon Prime
Trygon Prime
Trygon Prime
3 Raveners

A 2000 point list that I played a few games with this past weekend. Casual play. I've basically stop trying at tournaments with Tyranids. Lost a few games, but it looked great! Now the Spores are Scratched built! but everything else is GW Online prices.

Merchandise Sub-Total:

$499.50 + Shipping

From the thread you just linked to... 2,000 points and $500 odd dollars.

Yes, one exception. with conversions as well.

Didnt mean for this to get all testosterony. The math i see says one thing, you guys say another. Im willing to leave it at that.

Even with the conversions you're looking at $625 tops.

No one's "testosterony", we're attempting to maintain neutrality from what we see as a biased post.

I meant me mostly.

Ahh, different story then.

I think the major thing that we're trying to convey here is that one is not better than the other, simply that both offer different things.

Negator80 wrote:FFS guys, yeah, i didnt type what i was thinking. No, it's not cheap. Yes, its cheaper in the long run.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/454189.page

Every 2000 point army there is $800.00 or more. You can nearly buy a whole wm/h faction for that.

I'm not flag waving or trying to argue its a better game. im arguing with someone that said its more expensive. im just ocd nerding about it.

i dont know what so say -ive pretty much debunked the notion that its cheaper, even in the long run. Looking at some of those 40k armies though, £500 seems pretty reasonable. that first list - £350 odd, and its 9 kans, 2 dreds, and 80 boyz. tyranid list had 78 gribblies. 5 dreads, and 42 marines in another for the same. again, not bad. pretty much what id expect. and again, see mine above - £1800 and then some. about £1200 on my khador stuff. and im still not done! its far from "nearly a whole WM faction".

heres the thing though- and here's where we're coming to blows. how often do you see *that* 40k scale army equivelant- as in 9 jacks, and 80 grunts in a warmachine army? typically, at 50pts, you'll see a caster, 2 jacks, and 2 squads of infantry, plus support pieces. 30-35models, on average.

you're missing out on scale. and thats it. an "army" in 40k is 60 odd guys for an effective force - for 1 army. the same "army" of 60 guys in warmachine wont be fielded in one piece; it will be fielded as multiple different buildsof 20 guys in each build with the other 40 sitting out. but it still costs the same.
the cost per model is roughly the same between both games. thats a fact. you need less models to play warmachine, and budgetmachine armies can be done - as i pointed out, my 25pt circle list was £80. But no one plays one list in warmachine. its the great thing about the game - that everything is so balanced, and the fact that there is no "one list to rule them all". its worth taking those iron fangs instead of the men o war. you can have just 1 if you want, but wheres the fun in that? people who play this game tend to want more and more as they buy into the game more and more. While at any one point, you might only be fielding £100-£150 worth of stuff on the table at any one point, that £100-£150 worth of stuff is coming in from a rotation from a bigger, more expensive pile of stuff. its the nature of the game. while you're still only playing 35, or 50pt games, you might have 100s of points worth of stuff sitting out on the sidelines. but all that stuff still costs money. the only difference is that stuff is fielded at the same time in 40k (as its a game that focuses on larger battles), while in WM, the scale is smaller.

Been playing Warmachine for a while, originally got into it after picking up the Iron Kingdoms books for D&D.

Prior to that I had played 40K, mostly Imperial Guard but the setting and fluff of GW's game was kinda 'meh' to me. Friend linked me to the PP website and I fell for the steampunk style.

Really enjoy the resource management of WM and the fact that I really have to think about what I'm doing, a great many times I've lost games because I put my 'caster in a position where my opponent could draw a bead on him.

The only real drawback I find is the lack of players, my local area is still heavily dominated by 40K.

Deadnight wrote:
What "point" am i ignoring? How am i "lying"? I spoke the truth - its a lot cheaper to buy into warmachine. starter pack. there you go. i even pointed out you can build up effective, tournament winning armies for less than £100. absolutely. but thats 1 list. buy the casters. £8-£10 each. sorschs. eSorscha. Irusk. eIrusk. Butcher. eButcher. Old Witch. Harkevich. Strakhov. Karchev. Zerkova (who still eluded me) Vlad. eVlad. lVlad. buy 1 of each of the warjacks, so you can swap things out - seriously, who wants "just" a juggernaut, and a destroyer. I dont. there's Drago, Beast, the behemoth (personal favourite), torch, spriggans, berzerkers devestators. thats pricy. if you want more than just the winter guard deathstar, and a max squad of kayazy, again, it;ll cost you if you want the great bears, iron fangs, doom reavers (ive got 8 squads f these at £18 each for my dream force - eButcher 50pts mad dogs of war list). a full squad of Uhlans will set you back £50. look at collossals. £100 each. gun carriages. then the books. if you're a completionist like me you've got all 11 forces of... books, along with Hordes Primal, Warmachine Prime, Wrath and Domination. *shrug* i dont know what to say. Im not lying, and frankly, i am quite insulted at what i feel is an extremely unjustified, and extremely short sighted comment.

I'm sorry, but I simply have to point out how this makes no sense at all. Let me rephrase, so it can be plainly seen how silly that argument is.

It's cheaper to get into 40k. Battleforce, there you go. But that's one list for one army. Buy the Finecast solos. £10-£15 each. Hive Tyrant. Swarmlord. Tervigon. Carnifex. Trygon. You have to buy them all because 40k is Pokémon. Buy multiples of every monstrous creature so you can swap things out - I mean who wants 'just' a Trygon. I don't. There's Harpy conversions, Mawlocs, and Trygon Primes in there. Lictors, Broodlords, Hive Guard, Tyrant Guard, Zoanthropes. Old One Eye. If you want to run multiple lists and can't bring yourself to proxy regular Genestealers as Ymgarls, you're forced to buy more. Look at Titans. £300 each. Hierodules. Hierophants. You need these to play Tyranids effectively. Then the books. If you're a completionist like me you've got the books of all the armies in every edition (even the ones you don't own, for some unknown reason) and every rulebook, all 83 of them. Planetstrike. Cities of Death. Apocalypse. Epic. Planetary Empires. Spearhead. Battle Missions. Imperial Armour.

Yes, I feel that the fact many Warhammer armies cost more than a single Warmachine army means that Warmachine is cheaper. Clearly.

(Sarcasm ends here)

To be absolutely fair, you can build a generic WM army that plays completely differently than another army by just swapping out the Warcaster.

my 35 Point Dr. Arkadius list plays completely differently with 1 purchase, Lord Carver.

Negator80 wrote:FFS guys, yeah, i didnt type what i was thinking. No, it's not cheap. Yes, its cheaper in the long run.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/454189.page

Every 2000 point army there is $800.00 or more. You can nearly buy a whole wm/h faction for that.

I guess the baseline control here is 'what does it take to play in an average tournament for both systems? 35-50 and 1500-2000'.

I'm not flag waving or trying to argue its a better game. im arguing with someone that said its more expensive. im just ocd nerding about it.

During the last year, I priced a 2000 pt Blood Angels DoA list for $400 and that includes the cost to make it WYSIWYG with funding for meltaguns and extra bits for veterans, priests and such.

The rules are very balenced and in america it just took over fantasy in number of players, so yes its popular but not so much over here in england. But there still is at leat 8 players in my town alone

Frozen Ocean wrote:It's cheaper to get into 40k. Battleforce, there you go.

Just had a quick look on GW's website, an IG* Cadian Battleforce costs £75 and contains at least one unit you can't technically legally use on its own if you go the HQ + 2 Vet squads route unless you break it up and spread amongst the squads. Going the other way requires a second battleforce and a HQ unit which adds another £90 on top, totalling £165 if you buy direct from GW (or £123.75 if you can get a 25% discount). Quick look at the IG Codex and eyeballing equipment shown on the box covers you'll have a 815pt army, throw in a tank and you're looking at almost £200 for a 1,000pt army. Going the HQ + 2 Vets squad route will give you a 400pt Combat Patrol force for £75, though you'll have to be careful with points. Then theres another £65 on top for the rulebook and Codex.

In comparison a Warmachine Battlegroup box gives you a set of Quick Start Rules, the stat cards and models for a fully legal force for £35.

*Chosen as an example since I had the Codex to hand.

I never thought that my comment about it being cheaper to start would spark this!

Here's the thing, looking at the most common ways to start:

To start Warmachine at the 15 point level will cost you around £40 = £30 for the Battlebox and £10 for a unit to pad you out to the full 15 points.

To start Warhammer 40k will cost you around £72 = £60 for the battleforce and another £12 for an HQ to lead it.

However, for Warmachine your £40 is buying you around 10 models, whereas for 40k you are getting around 30 odd models. So while it is more expensive to start 40k, you are probably getting more for your money.

stormwell wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:It's cheaper to get into 40k. Battleforce, there you go.

Just had a quick look on GW's website, an IG* Cadian Battleforce costs £75 and contains at least one unit you can't technically legally use on its own if you go the HQ + 2 Vet squads route unless you break it up and spread amongst the squads. Going the other way requires a second battleforce and a HQ unit which adds another £90 on top, totalling £165 if you buy direct from GW (or £123.75 if you can get a 25% discount). Quick look at the IG Codex and eyeballing equipment shown on the box covers you'll have a 815pt army, throw in a tank and you're looking at almost £200 for a 1,000pt army. Going the HQ + 2 Vets squad route will give you a 400pt Combat Patrol force for £75, though you'll have to be careful with points. Then theres another £65 on top for the rulebook and Codex.

In comparison a Warmachine Battlegroup box gives you a set of Quick Start Rules, the stat cards and models for a fully legal force for £35.

*Chosen as an example since I had the Codex to hand.

Frozen Ocean wrote:(Sarcasm ends here)

Did you notice that? I was parodying your post, pointing out that your logic makes no sense. Warmachine is cheaper - but you were arguing that it is not cheaper because nobody collects only one army? What? You can't say "Well, an apple is 50p and a banana is 70p, but apples are more expensive because I like to buy lots of them". I didn't believe anything I said in the post. It was a sarcastic attempt to show you what your post was saying. Changing the context from Warmachine to 40k doesn't make nonsense start to make sense.

And yes, you do get more models. However, it's not quantity we're talking about, here. We're talking about the required cost to play the game, which is the main factor. It's like buying a video game - it doesn't matter how many GB of data are on the game disc, you're still fully able to play the game because you have the disc. Of course 40k can be cheaper on a per-model basis, but that's not a fair comparison. The majority of Warmachine models are the equivalent to GW Finecast solos - which are, on the model-per-model basis, generally more expensive. Warjacks and warbeasts are generally cheaper than things like Dreadnoughts or Monstrous Creatures. It's not fair to say "Sorscha costs £7, a Space Marine solo costs £13, but 40k is cheaper because I can get 12 Hormagaunts for £18, or £1.50 each".

Personally, I don't particularly care about the price differences. Sure, it's nice and all (and lo and behold - PP actually decrease their prices occasionally!) and lets me buy more models, but I've been in 40k long enough to have just accepted the high cost of wargaming and I can continue to live with it. If I wanted to save a lot of money but still wanted to play the game, I'd proxy a lot more. Personally, I play Hordes because it's fun. I play 40k because it's fun. I hear that Infinity is fun, and hope to play it soon.

If you're wondering why I commented as I did even though I have no personal opinion on the matter - it was because stormwell's* logic in the post I quoted in my previous post just hurt my brain so badly.



EDIT: * - I meant Deadnight. Sorry. DX

Frozen Ocean wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:(Sarcasm ends here)

Did you notice that? I was parodying your post, pointing out that your logic makes no sense. Warmachine is cheaper - but you were arguing that it is not cheaper...

Missed the sarcasm bit and to be honest you're mistaking me for somebody else, my previous post is the only one I've made in this thread regarding the price difference between the two games and even then if you read my post I pointed out much much cheaper it was to start Warmachine and get playing.

I suggest you go and check back through this thread, I have only made one other post that outlined why I started playing Warmachine but didn't make any mention of the price difference.

A little bit more on topic:

There are many things that appeal to me about it, but far and away the biggest appeal to me are the rules. I'm not extremely competitive by nature and can easily have fun while losing, but I'm a stickler for following game rules. I try to learn the game rules backwards and forwards. This has proven problematic for me with other games that don't have very clear rules. I'm not a rules lawyer, because I don't get into arguments during matches. Instead I usually let it slide in game, but afterwards I'm left frustrated if they don't follow the rules very well.

With Warmachine there is very very little grey area in the rules. If you encounter a seemingly grey area, most of the time a quick rereading of the card will set you straight. I was doing a battlebox match this past weekend to help teach a friend the game. He would read a section in the quick start rules or on a card and then ask, "well how does this work with ..." or "can I do this then this?" I would then ask to see the card or rule he was looking at and every time there was a qualifying word in the rule that he was just missing on a quick once over. After carefully reading whatever rule he had a question about, the answer to whatever question he had always presented itself. There was no debate over what the true written or intended rule was. In the end it was always clear.

Also, because the basic rules in the rulebook are so clear, rarely do I ever see experienced players needing to reference the rulebook during a game. If there is ever a rule question it is almost always about a card rule and those are easily accessible during play. Therefore, when there is a rules question in a game, it is often solved very quickly by showing the player the card and moving on with the game, not digging through a rulebook to find the right page then read whatever section applies.

Other things that appeal to me about the game:

I also like the fact that the number of models used in a match is smaller than some other games I've played. The idea of having a massive battle with hundreds of models appeals to me in theory, but in practice I always found it to be more tedious than enjoyable.

Also due to the smaller model count, and well written rules, I like the fact that a tournament point sized match should be easily played in under 2 hours, often under 1.5 hours. There is also a higher likelihood that more people achieve a fully painted army than in other games, myself included.

I like the strategy that goes into the game. Knowing your army, your opponent's army, threat ranges, synergies, model placement, orders of activation, mathematical probabilities (how can fury or focus be spent to achieve the highest return) and such are just as important as the army list itself. Only at the highest levels of tournament play can opponents look at a match and see a clear winner on paper, and that is only with highly experienced players and the most extreme of bad list match ups. Certainly, strategy goes into list building, but the list alone does not win the match.

@haendas:
WORD! I can't possibly agree more!

@Stormwell; sorry! I got confused. I was backreading the thread through the post editor when I wrote that, and I got confused by the copious amounts of quoting. I meant Deadnight, not you! DX

EDIT:

haendas wrote:I also like the fact that the number of models used in a match is smaller than some other games I've played. The idea of having a massive battle with hundreds of models appeals to me in theory, but in practice I always found it to be more tedious than enjoyable.

Yeah... I play Tyranids. Ten-minute movement phases are not fun things.

stormwell wrote:...IG* Cadian Battleforce costs £75...

IG are honestly a terrible example when comparing any costs. About the only one worse is Forgeworld.

One should pick an average (mean/median/mode, depending), not an outlier.

I could argue that "WM/H units are ridiculously expensive," citing Kriel Warriors (over $100 for a fodder unit), though that doesn't stop most WM units from being around $50, give or take (unit size, unit attachments, etc.)

WM is cheaper for a playable army, but the encouraged (and tourney-required) variety means that a serious collector will still spend around as much per faction as a 40k player, in my experience (again, ignoring outliers: one man's titan is another's 6 colossals)

Frozen Ocean wrote:@Stormwell; sorry! I got confused. I was backreading the thread through the post editor when I wrote that, and I got confused by the copious amounts of quoting. I meant Deadnight, not you! DX

Thats fine dude, it happens. So no worries.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

stormwell wrote:...IG* Cadian Battleforce costs £75...

IG are honestly a terrible example when comparing any costs. About the only one worse is Forgeworld.

One should pick an average (mean/median/mode, depending), not an outlier.

As I stated in my post I usually used that as a sample because I had the Codex to hand to also show how it fitted in with points size.

But looking at GW's website the price ranges from £65 for Eldar or Ork through to £80 for (I think) Marines, so the average is typically £72.50 at a rough guess.

Frozen Ocean wrote:


I'm sorry, but I simply have to point out how this makes no sense at all. Let me rephrase, so it can be plainly seen how silly that argument is.

It's cheaper to get into 40k. Battleforce, there you go. But that's one list for one army. Buy the Finecast solos. £10-£15 each. Hive Tyrant. Swarmlord. Tervigon. Carnifex. Trygon. You have to buy them all because 40k is Pokémon. Buy multiples of every monstrous creature so you can swap things out - I mean who wants 'just' a Trygon. I don't. There's Harpy conversions, Mawlocs, and Trygon Primes in there. Lictors, Broodlords, Hive Guard, Tyrant Guard, Zoanthropes. Old One Eye. If you want to run multiple lists and can't bring yourself to proxy regular Genestealers as Ymgarls, you're forced to buy more. Look at Titans. £300 each. Hierodules. Hierophants. You need these to play Tyranids effectively. Then the books. If you're a completionist like me you've got the books of all the armies in every edition (even the ones you don't own, for some unknown reason) and every rulebook, all 83 of them. Planetstrike. Cities of Death. Apocalypse. Epic. Planetary Empires. Spearhead. Battle Missions. Imperial Armour.

Yes, I feel that the fact many Warhammer armies cost more than a single Warmachine army means that Warmachine is cheaper. Clearly.

(Sarcasm ends here)

you can drop the sarcasm mate, and the bad attitude. neither do you any favours. regardless, what exactly are you trying to *prove* with that sarcasm? seriously. i could have told you that you can get into 40k for as little as the cost of the battleforce (my space wolves cost me 80 euros back in the day, and i complained at the price!) If you want all the bells and whistles, and especially the hugely expensive forgeworld pieces (i still want a Manta!) then its quite obvious it will cost a bunch. unfortunately, you'll need opponents permission to field the FW stuff as well as not being able to take it to tournaments, which would annoy me no end considering the investment. buy they serve their purpose for the avid collector, and fair play. regardless, all you've *proven* with that little pathetic rant is that you cant read, or accept another posters POV and experience. if domeone wants to, they can invest a sizeable proportion of their income into 40k. and if thats what they want to do, fair play. if all they want to do is budgethammer, then itll be a huge amount cheaper However, the same can be said for warmachine and hordes. In the long run, it can get quite expensive. its not "cheap".


your post doesnt invalitate what ive said in any of my above posts. its cheaper to start warmachine. I've said that. Its cheaper to build "an" army. Again, i pointed out that a tournament winning (well, 2nd place) 25pt circle army cost me £80 odd - built up from the battbox, plus kromac, gorax, lord of the feast, war wold, and totem hunter. But in the long run, Warmachine can be quite expensive. If you want "one list", then you're fine. But if you want options, it'll cost you. i've pointed out where. If you want to read the story, and have the books, again that will cost you. I've spend a hell of a lot of money on warmachine (gladly too - its a hobby i enjoy) and i can say that with a degree of certainty. Investing in a faction, and the increased playability that more options gives you will cost you. Whats so wrong, or utterly outrageous about that statement?

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Yes, I feel that the fact many Warhammer armies cost more than a single Warmachine army means that Warmachine is cheaper. Clearly.

thats not a fair assessment. nor is it the whole story.

it depends, really. the post above listed a 1500pt ork army with 80 boys and 9 kans and dreds, that cost $500. £350 will get you a nice warmachine army, but will it get you 9 jacks and 80 infantry? I get what you are trying to say - that a typical 50pt army, as it appears on the tabletop costs less than a 1500pt army. absolutely. i'll agree 100%. i've never denied it, or argued against it. My point was though that to me, that 50pt army on the tabletop isnt the end of the argument. to me, *in the long run* means having more options to hand. to me, expanding a warmachine army doesnt mean going from 35 to 50. it means playing 35 to 50pt games, but having 50, or 100pts extra on the side, that you can swap out. to me, that is the *long term*, and its something you see more of in WM than 40k. 40k is dominated by a focus on a larger scale game (ie MOAR models!!) and having *the list*. thats not the case amongst WMH gamers, where the focus seems to also have the MOAR models, but not at the same time!, because of the small scale skirmish nature of the game, (a) you put less stuff on the board at any one time, (b) swapping stuff out can radically change the feel of an army - hence a reason, and incentive to buy more. and there is where i say that the hobby can be as expensive as 40k. Just because you have less stuff on the table doesnt make it cheaper, if you have more stuff on the side. thats partly due to the difference in scale between the 2 games. With 40k, your "army" is fielded almost in its entirety. With warmachine, even though you might have an equivelant sized "army" only a skirmishing party is fielded. (imagine if you only ever fielded your 2000pt IG force in 500pt forces - if 500pts was the accepted standard of game, and if the rules were more focused to allow for greater detail, depth and interplay that this scale would allow. sounds like the scale of warmachine, and the "feel" of the armies as i see them) Overall, while whats fielded in equivelant table top forces might be cheaper in WM, you need to remember that for me, its only a part of the greater whole. Maybe that clarifies my position for you.

Frozen Ocean wrote:

Did you notice that? I was parodying your post, pointing out that your logic makes no sense. Warmachine is cheaper - but you were arguing that it is not cheaper because nobody collects only one army? What? You can't say "Well, an apple is 50p and a banana is 70p, but apples are more expensive because I like to buy lots of them". I didn't believe anything I said in the post. It was a sarcastic attempt to show you what your post was saying. Changing the context from Warmachine to 40k doesn't make nonsense start to make sense.

well, for a start, it would be nice if you would actually read what i wrote. im not saying its not cheaper because no one collects only one army. come on! did you actually read anything i wrote, or did you just pick and choose random words and make up the rest of the stuff yourself? sheesh.

Its cheaper to get into warmachine. But in the long run, it can cost you a huge amount of money - as much as GW games ever did. Again, i dont see whats so outrageous about that? where does my logic make no sense, as you claim? Where have i mislaid my maths? If you want, i can list the things i've bought. I've pointed out where, and how the £££s all add up. Must it go that way? No, and i never claimed that you're forced to buy in to that extent. *shrug* i, and many others do though, voluntarily. I dont know what to say. I'll reiterate. its cheaper to get into the game, but expanding your force for further options will cost you as much as a 40k army ever would.

and for the record, if apples are cheaper than bananas, but you buy more of them, then yes, they are more expensive overall.

Frozen Ocean wrote:
And yes, you do get more models. However, it's not quantity we're talking about, here. We're talking about the required cost to play the game, which is the main factor. It's like buying a video game - it doesn't matter how many GB of data are on the game disc, you're still fully able to play the game because you have the disc. Of course 40k can be cheaper on a per-model basis, but that's not a fair comparison. The majority of Warmachine models are the equivalent to GW Finecast solos - which are, on the model-per-model basis, generally more expensive. Warjacks and warbeasts are generally cheaper than things like Dreadnoughts or Monstrous Creatures. It's not fair to say "Sorscha costs £7, a Space Marine solo costs £13, but 40k is cheaper because I can get 12 Hormagaunts for £18, or £1.50 each".

its a mix really. 6 doom reavers is £18. 5 uhlans is £50. khador jacks tend to come in at £15 with some characters at £30. model per model, i'd argue they come out roughly the same, Different things are cheaper/more expensive (depending on your viewpoint!)

but to be honest, im not talking about the "required cost to play the game". Again, do yourself a favour, and *read* what i wrote. if thats all we're talking about, then the battlebox is literally *all* you need to buy in - caster, 2-4 jacks and the QSRs. done! And where have i denied that? While i've even gone and referred to individual 35 and 50pt forces and mentioned that yes, they are reasonable - thats not what im getting at when i say warmachine is as expensive in the long run. What im talking, specifically is about in the *long term*. the overall picture. if you want a complete set of options, and multiple builds. if you want to be able to play a variety of casters and styles. To me, saying "i play khador" doesnt mean "i have a 50pt list". to me,i it means you have, or are building a collection. An army, from which you select your shirmishing force of 35-50pts. I've given the numbers. I've given me as an example (personally, i have over 350pts of Khador, and over 100pts of Circle, yet i still play 35 and 50pt games). If you buy into a faction, it will cost you. Again, what is so outrageous about saying that in the long term, considering this, about saying WM is (or can be) as expensive as 40k? I'm expanding my force next week with WM:collossals, a conquest, ghetorix, a plastic warpwolf and a unit of druids + UA. £200. its pricey.
GW tend to use rather cynical ploys to push their new shinies (making the new pieces game breakingly good, and nerfing what was great in previous additions and making you buy into more of rge options that up until now you left by the side, for example). PP use other means to push their new shinies. In this case, they make everything (more or less) balanced. but other stuff wil lchange the feel of the game, and will play differently. you will get a different experience out of it. you can build and explore new tactics, new combos, new synnergies and new builds. Nothing is stricktly better as everything is worth taking; so there is an incentive to purchase more stuff and explore these options. All those tactics, combos and synnergies? yes, All of them are positives for me as a gamer. So im happy to buy in. Im just not gonna lie about the fact that its gonna have a nice little price tag to it. What can you *not* see about what im saying? these options cost me money. as much as 40k ever did. So to me, its extremely obvious that WM is an expensive as 40k.

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Personally, I don't particularly care about the price differences. Sure, it's nice and all (and lo and behold - PP actually decrease their prices occasionally!) and lets me buy more models, but I've been in 40k long enough to have just accepted the high cost of wargaming and I can continue to live with it. If I wanted to save a lot of money but still wanted to play the game, I'd proxy a lot more. Personally, I play Hordes because it's fun. I play 40k because it's fun. I hear that Infinity is fun, and hope to play it soon.

Me neither, to be honest. I have a good job, and for me, the cost of investment in new shinies isnt a kicker at all. For me its the tabletop experience. 40k doesnt do it for me sadly. WMH does. Same with Infinity - for what its worth, you should look into it. the quick start rules, army lists and full rules are free to download on the website. starter cost is tiny - any of the faction starter packs and you're ready to go. And for what its worth, im the infinity guy here - i've been doing a fair few demos lately, and with 6 demos, ive had 6 people buy in. that tells me people are very interested in the game. id argue the layout of the rulebook could be better - IMO it makes the game appear excessively complicated, but to be honest, it flows extremely well - any factions catch your eye in particular?

Great place to have a pointless argument guys. I'm quite sure the OP had an e-peen contest in mind when he made his post.

Bullockist wrote:Great place to have a pointless argument guys. I'm quite sure the OP had an e-peen contest in mind when he made his post.

It's not exactly pointless, but yeah, it's devolved pretty quick.