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Bullockist wrote:Great place to have a pointless argument guys. I'm quite sure the OP had an e-peen contest in mind when he made his post.

Most "what's PP like" threads tend to break down as:

stage 1:
-"PP is awesome!"
-"rules are great"

stage 2:
-"PP is better than GW, regarding X, Y, and/or Z", including but not limited to price, fiction, number of pieces involved

stage 3:
-refutation of stage 2
-support of stage 2
-fanboyism by most parties
-occasional valid points
-"to each his own"
-"you can play more than one game"
-calling out stage 3, which rarely actually does anything

stage 4:
-slow thread death as everyone gets bored of repeating themselves...

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Bullockist wrote:Great place to have a pointless argument guys. I'm quite sure the OP had an e-peen contest in mind when he made his post.

Most "what's PP like" threads tend to break down as:

stage 1:
-"PP is awesome!"
-"rules are great"

stage 2:
-"PP is better than GW, regarding X, Y, and/or Z", including but not limited to price, fiction, number of pieces involved

stage 3:
-refutation of stage 2
-support of stage 2
-fanboyism by most parties
-occasional valid points
-"to each his own"
-"you can play more than one game"
-calling out stage 3, which rarely actually does anything

stage 4:
-slow thread death as everyone gets bored of repeating themselves...

Exalted.

--The rules are tight, and PP draws on player feedback with test rulesets for public play testing with the current ruleset.
--The books are beautiful and easy to navigate.
--The cards make for simple referencing instead of having to flip through a book when playing a game.
--No need for a ton of dice. Between three and five dice is all you ever need. That makes to faster gameplay.
--A ton of combinations of units and spells/abilities that make for a number of different army types within each faction.
--Quality models, and improvments made with every release.
--Compelling fluff that drives changes in the game rather than the game universe being static.

To Sum it up: Warmachines / Hordes is a strong system that is fun to play.

I believe Privateer Press Warmachine/Hordes to be an excellent game. I have played about all the different wargames available and I do find myself liking the WM/H the most. I love the fact that it is easy to learn but difficult to master. You can and should buy both the warmachine and hordes core rulebooks. You can and should check out the community boards and most especially the Privateer Press official rules forum. They have active "infernals" (in house judges) that will generally rule on a subject within an hour, in most cases, and it lets you get a good idea of what people can and do try to pull off.

The game does have 2 very powerfull factions, but they are far from being boss. They are Legion of Everblight in hordes and Cryx in Warmachine. Common saying is Cryx bends the rules the most and Legion outright breaks them. Funny thing though is that after a few games against them with just about any faction you know what the hard counters are to their shenannigans and will not forget it. The chess versus checkers comparison a few posts up was very accurate as well. Until you either buy all the books or have played every faction, I would recommend checking your opponents cards before the game as some units/ solos can very much ruin your best laid plans. This aspect of the mercenary(warmachine faction) and minions (hordes faction) that will work for other factions so you can include them in your forces really throws some curveballs at you when you least expect it.

As to the progress of the game, it does appear that PP is trying to push players to go bigger since the major cons for the rest of this year will be 75 point Steam Rollers. That being said though, Cons like Gen Con always do a wide range of events that start with 15 point tournaments, 25 pts, 35 pts, and 50 pts and take the winner of the overall from the most points scored throughout the con while the masters and invitational scene will be whatever format that Privateer press wants. That being said we really cannot fault a private company for trying to make money by increasing the size of the games at major conventions since the local scene press gangers can run whatever size tournaments they want.

All in all I honestly believe that Warmachine and Hordes are a fresh new face to gaming and that they are a very competative set of games that can be fun no matter what point level you decide to get into. You can always spend around 50 bucks and get about a 15 point army and try it out locally and if you like it you can go bigger.

Tyras wrote:--The rules are tight, and PP draws on player feedback with test rulesets for public play testing with the current ruleset.
--The books are beautiful and easy to navigate.
--The cards make for simple referencing instead of having to flip through a book when playing a game.
--No need for a ton of dice. Between three and five dice is all you ever need. That makes to faster gameplay.
--A ton of combinations of units and spells/abilities that make for a number of different army types within each faction.
--Quality models, and improvments made with every release.
--Compelling fluff that drives changes in the game rather than the game universe being static.

To Sum it up: Warmachines / Hordes is a strong system that is fun to play.

I agree with all of the above points except for the fluff. The fluff, in my opinion, is dumb beyond belief. The stories are awful and the characters are not very compelling or believable. Just one man's opinion.

Kurce wrote:
I agree with all of the above points except for the fluff. The fluff, in my opinion, is dumb beyond belief. The stories are awful and the characters are not very compelling or believable. Just one man's opinion.

Im actually gonna call you on this (but in a good way, dont worry!) the thing is, what you read in the books isnt "the fluff". think of whats written as a glorified battle report, just like the kind you used to read in White Dwarf years back. To be fair, since they've moved it from its RPG roots to a wargaming setting, the needs of a wargame are different. In fairness, unlike GW, they move the plot on - its not continually stuck at c.605AR - years actually go by. wars are fought, battles are won and lost, and the positions of the pieces shift from book to book. that said, as a wargame, all the factions present ulitimately must remain on an equal footing, to maintain this semblance of (a) balance, and (b) eternal conflict - the setting exists now to promote this. if it was a novel, someone would win, someone would die and the plot would advance and end. they cant do that though, so im quite happy whilst things stay the same, at the same time they stay constatly in flux.

Now, regarding what id like to call you on - the notion that the fluff is dumb beyond belief. No, its not. Maybe you're not exposed to it, or dont know where to look. and that happens - a lot of people dont look beyond the Forces of... books. Most people base their impression of the fluff solely on whats in the Forces of... books and the expansions, without realising there is so much more out there. Its like basing your opinion on the fluff of 40k solely on Kaldor Draigo's story. this completely ignores the specialist game fluff, the IAs, the various worldwide campaigns, codices and fluff going back to 2nd ed and RT. its the same with warmahordes. this game started as an RPG back in the day, and the RPG books sre where its at if you want the seriously good background material - they go into *HUGE* depth exploring the worlds, telling the myths and the histories of each and every nation (even those long dead) and describing each region, with famous places, stories and figures. the RPG material turns it from a setting that exists to promote war into a living, breathing, lived-in world. you can almost taste the soot in the Corvis air whern you read it. If you're interested, and i hope you (and others are!) please go and look into the books - chances are you can download them off the net for free these days. you will not be disappointed. Personally, im really looking forward to the relaunch of the Iron Kingdoms RPG - thats going to have some seriously good material in it.

Having read all of the fiction (including the NQs, and having DM'd a lot of their RPG campaign stuff) , through Wrath, gotta say, the fluff was decent, and is now bad.

Temporal progress doesn't not equate to narrative or character progress.

Their setting had a ton of potential (which is why I liked the RPG), but it's squandered on some really dumb stories (and plot armor). Also, their religions don't make sense.

spiralingcadaver wrote:Also, their religions don't make sense.

I lol'd.

That said, I think the fluff is fine. It isn't half as complex as GW's, and it doesn't have too much depth, but it is nice. PP could, and imo should, let one faction or another lose a few characters here and there, as I said before, but even without that, it is a nice read. If I really want awesome fluff, I have to agree, I'll go elsewhere though. Like an actual RPG, for example, or something without an actual game, even.

Skylifter wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Also, their religions don't make sense.

I lol'd.

That said, I think the fluff is fine. It isn't half as complex as GW's, and it doesn't have too much depth, but it is nice. PP could, and imo should, let one faction or another lose a few characters here and there, as I said before, but even without that, it is a nice read. If I really want awesome fluff, I have to agree, I'll go elsewhere though. Like an actual RPG, for example, or something without an actual game, even.

Plot Armor shouldn't be there. Write like you got a pair, PP! Kill Haley! Kill Alexia! Cripple Vayle! We don't get generic characters to lead our armies. Every skirmish to major battle is lead by named characters. With that much war, someone is going to die, and it needs to stop being Cryx. Just because they're undead and defeat is only a speed bump DOESN'T mean Cryx should just get Worfed in every book.

I agree that the background is also a little... stagnant, to say the least. Why do I care about the characters if they never die/everyone remains equally powerful? It's not like 40k isn't guilty of that either.

Though another thing that peeves me is the accessibility of the fluff. If you want to get all of it, you essentially need every rulebook and some of the NQ's, which I hear are sometimes hard to find.

As a note, some GW playable characters that have died... spoilers, I guess:




-Captain Tycho
-Lord Solar Macharius*
-Eldrad
-A bunch of FW characters
-Naaman(? that Dark Angels super scout)*
-At least one Ravenwing Master
-the squats ()*

*no longer playable, though there are plenty of characters who haven't died, who just faded out of the game



Also, yeah, 40k's been stuck at the end of the milennium for ages. At least they're doing stuff like the HH to access other time periods, which is almost as good as moving the present one along.

Nagashek wrote:

Skylifter wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Also, their religions don't make sense.

I lol'd.

That said, I think the fluff is fine. It isn't half as complex as GW's, and it doesn't have too much depth, but it is nice. PP could, and imo should, let one faction or another lose a few characters here and there, as I said before, but even without that, it is a nice read. If I really want awesome fluff, I have to agree, I'll go elsewhere though. Like an actual RPG, for example, or something without an actual game, even.

Plot Armor shouldn't be there. Write like you got a pair, PP! Kill Haley! Kill Alexia! Cripple Vayle! We don't get generic characters to lead our armies. Every skirmish to major battle is lead by named characters. With that much war, someone is going to die, and it needs to stop being Cryx. Just because they're undead and defeat is only a speed bump DOESN'T mean Cryx should just get Worfed in every book.

Actually Cryx has been kicking arse the last couple of books. I would like to see some casters die on each side though (so long as Goreshade isn't one of them).

AduroT wrote:

Nagashek wrote:

Skylifter wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Also, their religions don't make sense.

I lol'd.

That said, I think the fluff is fine. It isn't half as complex as GW's, and it doesn't have too much depth, but it is nice. PP could, and imo should, let one faction or another lose a few characters here and there, as I said before, but even without that, it is a nice read. If I really want awesome fluff, I have to agree, I'll go elsewhere though. Like an actual RPG, for example, or something without an actual game, even.

Plot Armor shouldn't be there. Write like you got a pair, PP! Kill Haley! Kill Alexia! Cripple Vayle! We don't get generic characters to lead our armies. Every skirmish to major battle is lead by named characters. With that much war, someone is going to die, and it needs to stop being Cryx. Just because they're undead and defeat is only a speed bump DOESN'T mean Cryx should just get Worfed in every book.

Actually Cryx has been kicking arse the last couple of books. I would like to see some casters die on each side though (so long as Goreshade isn't one of them).

Well I might as well jump in on this

I bought into WM back in MKI, had a Menoth army and didnt like it.

Now a few years later and somewhat wiser, I have gotten bored with GW and a bit frustrated. Yes i will still play 40k but i need a break from it for a while.

I played a few test games of MKII and am pretty in love with the rules. The models are growing on me as well.

As to the cheaper or not debate. I've dropped about $200 so far and have a 35pt Khador army. I cant remember spending that little to play a 40k game

It seems to an outsider that Infantry Dominate Warmachine

Infantry are very important, but many warjacks can crush infantry with relative impunity.

Yeah. Dropping a minuteman in the middle of the enemy on Siege's feat turn is... fun.

ChocolateGork wrote:It seems to an outsider that Infantry Dominate Warmachine

This is a keen observation, but reports of infantry's overbearing presence has been over-exaggerated in in many cases. I find warjacks to be problem solvers and game-enders while infantry are better suited for jockeying for position and earning you board control. Most warcasters have a soft cap of 2-3 jacks they can run effectively because of focus limitations so taking excess jacks leaves one operating at a very basic level; spending those extra points on infantry is a matter of rounding out your list with efficiency. There are a couple of really strong infantry units that have a dominant presence, such as bane thralls, but it is usually best to strike a balance. I for one and happy infantry are still viable.

ChocolateGork wrote:It seems to an outsider that Infantry Dominate Warmachine

The thing to remember about the 'jacks is that they scale in quanta: a 'caster can only support so many 'jacks, so until you get to a second 'caster (barring Jack Marshals) you will necessarily need to make up points with infantry.

That is, suppose a 'caster can keep 2 heavies in focus and working well. It doesn't matter if it's a 25 point game or a 50 point game (more or less), so the rest of the points have to be things other then 'jacks.

As an aside, I always find it amazing when people compare anything unfavorably to GW's background. It's like listening to someone extol the virtues of, say, the original endings to Mass Effect 3, or the deep, emotional experience of Matrix Reloaded.

Different strokes, and all that jazz.

Buzzsaw wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:It seems to an outsider that Infantry Dominate Warmachine

The thing to remember about the 'jacks is that they scale in quanta: a 'caster can only support so many 'jacks, so until you get to a second 'caster (barring Jack Marshals) you will necessarily need to make up points with infantry.

That is, suppose a 'caster can keep 2 heavies in focus and working well. It doesn't matter if it's a 25 point game or a 50 point game (more or less), so the rest of the points have to be things other then 'jacks.

As an aside, I always find it amazing when people compare anything unfavorably to GW's background. It's like listening to someone extol the virtues of, say, the original endings to Mass Effect 3, or the deep, emotional experience of Matrix Reloaded.

Different strokes, and all that jazz.

I find it amazing that people defend GW's fluff when it is erratically inconsistent and often retconned to the point of being unrecognizable.

The complaints of plot armor against PP is rather odd. The casters are sort of the main characters. Just because they don't kill one off every few minutes like a snuff film doesn't mean it's bad. People are still dieing around them, they have things happen to them, they are moving forward with their own schemes.

ChocolateGork wrote:It seems to an outsider that Infantry Dominate Warmachine

TLR: Just because people field more infantry doesn't mean they dominate.

Warjacks are concentrated force whereas infantry cover the field. Certain kinds
of infantry CAN trash a 'jack, but that infantry needs a wider area to get all those
models to concentrate their attacks, and one way to screen against
infantry is to bring your own infantry. Certain warjacks CAN clear infantry, but a
warjack that tramples needs a clear path in which to trample and their main
attacks are generally overkill for dealing with infantry.

Surtur wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:It seems to an outsider that Infantry Dominate Warmachine

The thing to remember about the 'jacks is that they scale in quanta: a 'caster can only support so many 'jacks, so until you get to a second 'caster (barring Jack Marshals) you will necessarily need to make up points with infantry.

That is, suppose a 'caster can keep 2 heavies in focus and working well. It doesn't matter if it's a 25 point game or a 50 point game (more or less), so the rest of the points have to be things other then 'jacks.

As an aside, I always find it amazing when people compare anything unfavorably to GW's background. It's like listening to someone extol the virtues of, say, the original endings to Mass Effect 3, or the deep, emotional experience of Matrix Reloaded.

Different strokes, and all that jazz.

I find it amazing that people defend GW's fluff when it is erratically inconsistent and often retconned to the point of being unrecognizable.

The complaints of plot armor against PP is rather odd. The casters are sort of the main characters. Just because they don't kill one off every few minutes like a snuff film doesn't mean it's bad. People are still dieing around them, they have things happen to them, they are moving forward with their own schemes.

I don't want PP killing off casters every few minutes, just an occasional one to show that it Can happen. As it is, no warcaster or other character with a fig has ever died, except the ones who get free ressurections. It means you know that no matter how bad it looks for someone, if he has a fig, he'll be fine. Now that guy standing next to him? He might as well be wearing a red shirt.

There have not been any deaths of playable characters but there has been some loss of life, health, and major setbacks for each faction.

Baldur, Denegrah, and the harbinger all died and got brought back through supernatural means. The plot armor may have kept them active in the story, but Denegrah and Baldur are both changed for their experiences. Also, while not playable, the single mightiest living human in the setting has died.
After Wrath Karchev and Haley are both in poor condition and hanging by a thread.(nobody spoil colossals fluff please, I haven't had a chance to read it yet.)

Kallus also died in his debut fluff story, just to promptly resurrect. But that's just it, it's stupid. The only ones who die are those who get to be brought back. Haley and Karchev are hanging by a thread, but I have no fear for them because we know they're going to be fine, and probably end up stronger and more Epic because of their problems. There's no worry or fear or suspense. We know everyones going to be fine at the end of the day, unless you have no fig like the previous Menoth supreme dude then no matter how strong you are you're just a red shirt. Vinter seems to be the one exception to be red shirt thing, unless you count his Iron Kingdoms fig. They need to kill off just a couple dudes with figs, just to show that they're willing to do it, then you know it's possible and a threat that exists.

AduroT wrote:Kallus also died in his debut fluff story, just to promptly resurrect. But that's just it, it's stupid. The only ones who die are those who get to be brought back. Haley and Karchev are hanging by a thread, but I have no fear for them because we know they're going to be fine, and probably end up stronger and more Epic because of their problems. There's no worry or fear or suspense. We know everyones going to be fine at the end of the day, unless you have no fig like the previous Menoth supreme dude then no matter how strong you are you're just a red shirt. Vinter seems to be the one exception to be red shirt thing, unless you count his Iron Kingdoms fig. They need to kill off just a couple dudes with figs, just to show that they're willing to do it, then you know it's possible and a threat that exists.

The Seacat mentionned they would kill named characters once they felt they exhausted each of their story lines, for what it's worth. This is also a setting in which it was stated from the start that resurrection was possible for Very Powerful People Who Have A God On Their Side. The Warcasters of the game are the most powerful characters In Universe, a little like the Magnetos and Wolverines of the setting, so although I agree it's too convenient, it's somewhat warranted by the fluff.

Personnally I like to think of WM's fluff as something closer to Marvel comics than regular war stories. Once I accepted that mindset, everything made much more sense in the writing style...

This discussion of fluff i find rather strange.
Most fantasy novels have characers who swan through everything with little harm (george.r.r.martin being a noticable exception but i'm sure there are others). Not only is the style of PPs writing similar in style to fantasy novels (each caster is the equivalent to a fantasy novel hero), but fluff exists to evoke a mood and contribute to the setting and ethos of the world. I had never considered it to need "suspense".

On a practical level how can they kill someone who is a part of the game????? I can imagine this happening, you show up for a game with a caster and someone says " you can't use him, he's dead!"
ALso , how the hell would PP kill off a caster without alienating a portion of your audience? Do they roll a dice to pick which faction loses a viable game piece each expansion?

On a related note 40k fluff is trite, boring, very very one dimensional, I'd personally say it is the Mills and Boon of fluff. Just replace tall, dark ,rich man with an emo driven marine, the woman seeking a new life with a heroic marine captain and her existing life (before the arrival of the tall rich man ) with the foul gibbering legions of chaos. BAM! instant 40k fluff/novel.

Bullockist wrote:On a practical level how can they kill someone who is a part of the game????? I can imagine this happening, you show up for a game with a caster and someone says " you can't use him, he's dead!"

If someone says that in a non-joking way, call me so I can come punch him in the face.

Bullockist wrote:On a practical level how can they kill someone who is a part of the game????? I can imagine this happening, you show up for a game with a caster and someone says " you can't use him, he's dead!"
ALso , how the hell would PP kill off a caster without alienating a portion of your audience? Do they roll a dice to pick which faction loses a viable game piece each expansion? .

The figure would still be playable, no reason it wouldn't be. It's not like you're no longer allowed to use Iron Lich Asphyxious because he's now Lich Lord Asphyxious in the game.

AduroT wrote:

Bullockist wrote:On a practical level how can they kill someone who is a part of the game????? I can imagine this happening, you show up for a game with a caster and someone says " you can't use him, he's dead!"
ALso , how the hell would PP kill off a caster without alienating a portion of your audience? Do they roll a dice to pick which faction loses a viable game piece each expansion? .

The figure would still be playable, no reason it wouldn't be. It's not like you're no longer allowed to use Iron Lich Asphyxious because he's now Lich Lord Asphyxious in the game.

Yup, no reason to assume all battles are taking place in the 'now' of the setting. To take an example from 40K, Eldrad is dead, but still a playable character.

AduroT wrote:The figure would still be playable, no reason it wouldn't be. It's not like you're no longer allowed to use Iron Lich Asphyxious because he's now Lich Lord Asphyxious in the game.

Can't use Lich Lord Asphyxious either. It's Asphyxious the Hellbringer now.