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 Jihadin wrote:
Suprise party and we're not invited?

Its my party and I'll cry if I want to.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I should care, but I heard their shtick on NPR, and then I didn't.

Surprise surprise.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Look, if GG Allin showed up and pulled this off in a church down south he'd be lucky to get out alive.

That's... Not true. It's not even close to true. That's not even close to being a mistake, you're just lying.


It always (never) surprises me just how awful of a community dakka can be when it comes to such unimportant matters as human rights and freedoms.

Do you know who GG Allin is? If he did his shtick in in church down south they would have lynched him. Sure there is a political aspect to what is going on, but PR was very stupid for putting themselves right in Putin's hands. There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia. Doing it illegally, in a church no less is like asking Putin to lock you up. Protest all you want but when you expose your self to some real consequences why are people shocked that Putin would throw the hammer (and sickle) down? The guy is an oligarch!

What they did was stupid, juvenile and wrong! Understand that the price for such action is different around the world. There are plenty of countries where they would be killed for what they were doing in a holy site. I'm not saying it's right, but they really should have known better, I see it more as a couple of weeks for the action and a couple of years for just being stupid.

They are not a good political punk band, they are a stupid shock punk band, big difference. If they actually had a message it would be one thing, but mostly they just act like donkey caves and scream obscenities. I hate people who do things just for shock and then cry when they get caught. Waaaaaaaaa, welcome to the gulag and tuberculosis, not so smart now are they.

Seriously did they expect to get away with singing "Sh*t sh*t you holiness is Sh*t, Sh*t Sh*t your godliness is Sh*t" in a church in Russia all while taking on Putin too!

I pray to the temple of Joe Strummer, and as politically active as he was, he never would have done anything as stupid, disrespectful and dangerous as this.

Do you know who GG Allin is? If he did his shtick in in church down south they would have lynched him.

Nope. If you want to find me some nice examples of church patrons rising up and lynching people in modern times feel free. As it is this just is bull gak.

Sure there is a political aspect to what is going on, but PR was very stupid for putting themselves right in Putin's hands. There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia.

I don't think you know very much about Russian protest law.

Doing it illegally, in a church no less is like asking Putin to lock you up. Protest all you want but when you expose your self to some real consequences why are people shocked that Putin would throw the hammer (and sickle) down? The guy is an oligarch!

Where did you see people being surprised? The outcry is in the fact that PR didn't actually commit a crime, hooliganism is ill defined and the entirety of both the trial and the sentence were based on religious blasphemy laws which aren't part of the Russian federations set of laws. I implore you to actually do even a fractional amount of research into this whole thing before tossing out an opinion.

What they did was stupid, juvenile and wrong!

And entirely precedented in Russia and entirely within their rights under Russian law. Divorce your own opinion on the moralism of this from your views of the sentencing or else you're going to consistently seem ill informed and juvenile.

Andrew1975 wrote:There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the concept of sanctioned and unsanctioned protests and what the Russian government is allowing or banning in this regard, but I would like to point out that the laws are fairly strict (and have recently become even stricter with Putin signing off Federal Law 70631-6, "On Amendments to the Code of the Russian Federation on Administrative Violations") and some activists may feel the need to protest specifically because the current regime is cracking down on opposition and freedom more and more.

The protests of the White Rose in 1943 were "illegal" and somewhat built on shock value as well - would you say that what they did was stupid? I suppose the answer depends on whether or not you acknowledge that they were fully aware of the consequences, and simply were so convinced of their cause to disregard their own safety. And frankly, I think it's the same for Pussy Riot. Though I will not compare Pussy Riot to the White Rose, I think the latter still serves as an example on how young people may become inspired to do "stupid" things. Whether this conviction in itself is good or bad probably depends on one's own stance regarding the issues they were protesting about/against.

And I suppose the same could be said about a certain other group of vandals who used to throw crates of tea into the sea because they opposed taxation. Oh the irony.

Bottom line, Pussy Riot chose that place to protest specifically because they wanted to reach this audience, to make a stand against an organisation that is part of the apparatchik, and to disturb the false sense of serenity that they undoubtedly feel is lulling people into inactivity. I don't agree with how they did it (very amateurish, possibly doing more harm than good), but I certainly see why.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

Do you know who GG Allin is? If he did his shtick in in church down south they would have lynched him.

Nope. If you want to find me some nice examples of church patrons rising up and lynching people in modern times feel free. As it is this just is bull gak.

Sure there is a political aspect to what is going on, but PR was very stupid for putting themselves right in Putin's hands. There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia.

I don't think you know very much about Russian protest law.

Doing it illegally, in a church no less is like asking Putin to lock you up. Protest all you want but when you expose your self to some real consequences why are people shocked that Putin would throw the hammer (and sickle) down? The guy is an oligarch!

Where did you see people being surprised? The outcry is in the fact that PR didn't actually commit a crime, hooliganism is ill defined and the entirety of both the trial and the sentence were based on religious blasphemy laws which aren't part of the Russian federations set of laws. I implore you to actually do even a fractional amount of research into this whole thing before tossing out an opinion.

What they did was stupid, juvenile and wrong!

And entirely precedented in Russia and entirely within their rights under Russian law. Divorce your own opinion on the moralism of this from your views of the sentencing or else you're going to consistently seem ill informed and juvenile.

Ill show you someone getting lynched in the south when you show me someone trying to pull this kind of stunt there. This is not PRs first gig or guerrilla show, usually they do it in a public place and get away just fine. This time they decided to spew obscenities in a church. It's not my morality that is in question, many Russians take the church very seriously, its not something to be messed with over there.

As for me not knowing anything about Russia well I hate to tell you but I've lived there. You would have to be a rank A idiot to do what they did and think you could get away with it. Many Russian laws are ill defined for this exact purpose and if you knew anything you would know that. Enforcement is almost always situational. Is this a good thing, of course not, but you have to be aware of your surroundings when you act. Sorry, they were just very stupid and put themselves right in Putins pocket.

Russians protest all the time and don't get thrown in jail for two years, in general the police don't give a gak. Seriously unless the cops feel that they can shake you down they generally don't do anything. But you go ahead and pull a stunt like this and you are just asking for it. They could have protested outside! PR wanted media attention to make a name for themselves and to sell more records, well they got the attention, just not what they wanted.


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 Lynata wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the concept of sanctioned and unsanctioned protests and what the Russian government is allowing or banning in this regard, but I would like to point out that the laws are fairly strict (and have recently become even stricter with Putin signing off Federal Law 70631-6, "On Amendments to the Code of the Russian Federation on Administrative Violations") and some activists may feel the need to protest specifically because the current regime is cracking down on opposition and freedom more and more.

The protests of the White Rose in 1943 were "illegal" and somewhat built on shock value as well - would you say that what they did was stupid? I suppose the answer depends on whether or not you acknowledge that they were fully aware of the consequences, and simply were so convinced of their cause to disregard their own safety. And frankly, I think it's the same for Pussy Riot. Though I will not compare Pussy Riot to the White Rose, I think the latter still serves as an example on how young people may become inspired to do "stupid" things. Whether this conviction in itself is good or bad probably depends on one's own stance regarding the issues they were protesting about/against.

And I suppose the same could be said about a certain other group of vandals who used to throw crates of tea into the sea because they opposed taxation. Oh the irony.

Bottom line, Pussy Riot chose that place to protest specifically because they wanted to reach this audience, to make a stand against an organisation that is part of the apparatchik, and to disturb the false sense of serenity that they undoubtedly feel is lulling people into inactivity. I don't agree with how they did it (very amateurish, possibly doing more harm than good), but I certainly see why.

You are not actually comparing PR to white rose are you?

Ill show you someone getting lynched in the south when you show me someone trying to pull this kind of stunt there. This is not PRs first gig or guerrilla show, usually they do it in a public place and get away just fine. This time they decided to spew obscenities in a church. It's not my morality that is in question, many Russians take the church very seriously, its not something to be messed with over there.

Translation: "I made it up"

As for me not knowing anything about Russia well I hate to tell you but I've lived there. You would have to be a rank A idiot to do what they did and think you could get away with it. Many Russian laws are ill defined for this exact purpose and if you knew anything you would know that. Enforcement is almost always situational. Is this a good thing, of course not, but you have to be aware of your surroundings when you act. Sorry, they were just very stupid and put themselves right in Putins pocket.

Ahh, you refuse to find any examples of the "lynch pin" of your argument aaaaaand you suddenly used to live in Russia. How convenient.

Russians protest all the time and don't get thrown in jail for two years, in general the police don't give a gak. Seriously unless the cops feel that they can shake you down they generally don't do anything. But you go ahead and pull a stunt like this and you are just asking for it. They could have protested outside! PR wanted media attention to make a name for themselves and to sell more records, well they got the attention, just not what they wanted.

Translation: "Why didn't they just do a protest that no one would see or care about?"


Man, this is a great discussion we're having here!

Andrew1975 wrote:You are not actually comparing PR to white rose are you?

Did you read the entirety of my post?

->

Lynata wrote:Though I will not compare Pussy Riot to the White Rose, I think the latter still serves as an example on how young people may become inspired to do "stupid" things. Whether this conviction in itself is good or bad probably depends on one's own stance regarding the issues they were protesting about/against.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

Ill show you someone getting lynched in the south when you show me someone trying to pull this kind of stunt there. This is not PRs first gig or guerrilla show, usually they do it in a public place and get away just fine. This time they decided to spew obscenities in a church. It's not my morality that is in question, many Russians take the church very seriously, its not something to be messed with over there.

Translation: "I made it up"

As for me not knowing anything about Russia well I hate to tell you but I've lived there. You would have to be a rank A idiot to do what they did and think you could get away with it. Many Russian laws are ill defined for this exact purpose and if you knew anything you would know that. Enforcement is almost always situational. Is this a good thing, of course not, but you have to be aware of your surroundings when you act. Sorry, they were just very stupid and put themselves right in Putins pocket.

Ahh, you refuse to find any examples of the "lynch pin" of your argument aaaaaand you suddenly used to live in Russia. How convenient.

Russians protest all the time and don't get thrown in jail for two years, in general the police don't give a gak. Seriously unless the cops feel that they can shake you down they generally don't do anything. But you go ahead and pull a stunt like this and you are just asking for it. They could have protested outside! PR wanted media attention to make a name for themselves and to sell more records, well they got the attention, just not what they wanted.

Translation: "Why didn't they just do a protest that no one would see or care about?"


Man, this is a great discussion we're having here!

Made what up? That people down south take religion seriously or they have been known to lynch people in the past? Look I currently live in the south and because I'm a yankee that doesn't drive a truck, they look at me funny. 1.They don't really put up with much weirdness here and 2. they take church pretty seriously and 3. there is a history of people taking the law into their own hands, hence why people that would pull these kind of stunts pull them in more accepting and liberal places. None of that is made up.

Yes it is convenient that I lived in both Volgograd and Moscow for 6 month on exchange programs and probably have a much better grasp of Russian culture than you. I studied Russian just to vex people like you.

Personally I think the charge is excessive, but its completely expected and should have been.

Why didn't they just do a another protest that was legal and brought attention to their cause instead of derision and disgust. Oh yeah, they tried that plenty of times in the past, but nobody cared. Look at the numbers, most Russians don't have a problem with the sentence. If you can not fundamentally grasp that a group of people that had to hide and were persecuted for their religion for generations might be upset when someone gaks on it, well then you need to study history a little more.

People in Russia don't give a gak about PR. Most don't care about the message and see them as idiots that got what they deserve.

Putin is very popular in Russia, he has given the average people hope that Russia has a future. Things were so bad after the fall and Yeltsin was a drunk joke who was giving the country away to the Mafia. People were literally living hand to mouth. Russians actually love Putin's hard stands and rule compared to the lawlessness that followed the fall, you might say they were used to it. Is it a perfect world? no, but Russians feel more secure with that type of government, they want the stability that comes with a hard nosed leader.

PR had done many of these acts in completely open and public areas even performing in red square which is always full of police. They took it to far this time by doing their performance and screaming obscenities inside a church on an alter for pure shock value and attention.....oh yeah without permission. If anything this is the best thing that could have happened to PR! They are now worldwide celebrities not for having any kind of talent, but for pure shock, they are a bunch of no talent celebrity hacks that rank right up there with the Hiltons and Kardashions......just what Russia needs.

Additionally, people in churches are more antsy now. You throw a freakout in a church and you might get in a world of hurt really really fast.

Sure its political punishment. Its also a political act. In a church. By losers.

Ill tell you guys something funny I noticed.. After reading this story on the BBC, i googled Pussy Riot out of curioisty, and noticed that (try it yourself on google images) 90% of the links are pictures of the relatively attractive one.







The two ugly fethers are hardly seen, and I didn't see a single solo shot of one of them.

How fickle we are.

Made what up? That people down south take religion seriously or they have been known to lynch people in the past? Look I currently live in the south and because I'm a yankee that doesn't drive a truck, they look at me funny. 1.They don't really put up with much weirdness here and 2. they take church pretty seriously and 3. there is a history of people taking the law into their own hands, hence why people that would pull these kind of stunts pull them in more accepting and liberal places. None of that is made up.

You made up the lynching of vandals or unwelcome performance artists. Straight up it's just wrong and untrue. I don't care how funny they look at you, until you and your bandmates are strung up under a tree that's just you're own ridiculous posturing.

Yes it is convenient that I lived in both Volgograd and Moscow for 6 month on exchange programs and probably have a much better grasp of Russian culture than you. I studied Russian just to vex people like you.

I spend enough time on this forum telling people that have lived in America their entire lives that they're wrong and don't know what they're talking about concerning american subjects. You spending a holiday in Russia doesn't suddenly make you an expert on matters that you can't seemingly discuss without ludicrous hyperbole and continuous personal intonations (also plainly wrong facts).

Personally I think the charge is excessive, but its completely expected and should have been.

If it was completely expected than why is it unprecedented in their court and media systems?

Why didn't they just do a another protest that was legal and brought attention to their cause instead of derision and disgust.

Kind of like how they arrested Gary Kasparov last week for legally protesting their trial? Who knows why they didn't do that. That's their purview.

Oh yeah, they tried that plenty of times in the past, but nobody cared. Look at the numbers, most Russians don't have a problem with the sentence. If you can not fundamentally grasp that a group of people that had to hide and were persecuted for their religion for generations might be upset when someone gaks on it, well then you need to study history a little more.

Actually, the numbers point to a third of Russians being ok with the sentencing. That's still outrageously high, but it's certainly not "the majority".

Putin is very popular in Russia, he has given the average people hope that Russia has a future. Things were so bad after the fall and Yeltsin was a drunk joke who was giving the country away to the Mafia. People were literally living hand to mouth. Russians actually love Putin's hard stands and rule compared to the lawlessness that followed the fall, you might say they were used to it. Is it a perfect world? no, but Russians feel more secure with that type of government, they want the stability that comes with a hard nosed leader.

Putin has polled in actually impartial favorable/unfavorable surveys consistently under 50%. He used to hover around the 40's but after the last rigged election that has dropped.

PR had done many of these acts in completely open and public areas even performing in red square which is always full of police. They took it to far this time by doing their performance and screaming obscenities inside a church on an alter for pure shock value and attention.....oh yeah without permission.

Irrelevant. The trial jailed them for hooliganism by blasphemy. Something that isn't actually illegal in Russia. You really want to blame them for being stupid, but that just shows a true lack of morals or courage at the core of your debating position.




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 Frazzled wrote:
Additionally, people in churches are more antsy now. You throw a freakout in a church and you might get in a world of hurt really really fast.

Sure its political punishment. Its also a political act. In a church. By losers.

So you're on record as being ok when a government jails its citizens and stifles their freedom of speech if you find the speech vaguely objectionable? Any other flip flops you want to throw out today or is kicking your own sense of moralism or ethics into the mud good enough?

 Frazzled wrote:

Sure its political punishment. Its also a political act. In a church. By losers.

Guess I get to start arresting ministers that use the pulpit as a political soapbox now.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Additionally, people in churches are more antsy now. You throw a freakout in a church and you might get in a world of hurt really really fast.

Sure its political punishment. Its also a political act. In a church. By losers.

So you're on record as being ok when a government jails its citizens and stifles their freedom of speech if you find the speech vaguely objectionable? Any other flip flops you want to throw out today or is kicking your own sense of moralism or ethics into the mud good enough?

I'm on record as noting its not US citizens. Therefore Frazzled general policy is what they want to do is their business. Otherwise: 1) Putin is a dictator. He has reinstalled policies reminiscent of the Cold War. However Russia is so lame now no one cares. ; 2) I'd be more concerned if the party at issue weren't so lame.




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 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Sure its political punishment. Its also a political act. In a church. By losers.

Guess I get to start arresting ministers that use the pulpit as a political soapbox now.

Well you don't get to arrest anyone. Putin, however does. Its good to be the King.