Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kevlar wrote:
Why, when you can do the same thing with a 100 point model, or much more with a 175 point model?

There's a 100 point model with Hard to Hit, an AP3 torrent weapon, and is a CC beast?
And I wasn't aware Heldrakes could assault. Ill have to check those things out. Thanks for the tip!

What good are assault stats on a guy you want swooping and shooting an ap3 flamer? You can't do both at once so all you are doing is wasting points with your inefficiency.

A 60 pt sorcerer with the brand can sit in a unit in a rhino so yes he is extremely hard to hit. His unit will also most likely be scoring, and if he loses too many ablative wounds he can simply join a different unit.

A much more sensible HQ choice. And you can buy most of a heldrake with the points you saved.

You complained about units in cover. The template will kill models in cover. If he leaves cover the template isn't as effective, so you assault.

Look, like I said - you can feel free to live in a world where units only ever have one purpose and Demon Princes are bad. Ill be over here using them.

rigeld2 wrote:Look, like I said - you can feel free to live in a world where units only ever have one purpose and Demon Princes are bad. Ill be over here using them.

Living in the real world isn't exactly a choice mate. Kevlar's point isn't that units only have role, it's that when they struggle to fulfil those multiple roles as the DP does, then that's points inefficiently spent.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Look, like I said - you can feel free to live in a world where units only ever have one purpose and Demon Princes are bad. Ill be over here using them.

Living in the real world isn't exactly a choice mate.

See, in the real world a unit having multiple choices for how it performs isn't a bad thing mate.
Options are almost always good.

You're likely the same kind of person that thinks Genestealers are worthless in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Look, like I said - you can feel free to live in a world where units only ever have one purpose and Demon Princes are bad. Ill be over here using them.

Living in the real world isn't exactly a choice mate. Kevlar's point isn't that units only have role, it's that when they struggle to fulfil those multiple roles as the DP does, then that's points inefficiently spent.

Since you edited...

Struggle? Ignoring cover with AP3 on a Hard to Hit model isn't struggling. And he's a CC beat stick so I don't see him struggling there.
To match that without using the Prince you need a HQ and a Heldrake. The points for those models (ignoring the required escort for the HQ) are amazingly close to the Prince, if not over. And it takes multiple FOC slots.

Kevlar wrote:
A 60 pt sorcerer with the brand can sit in a unit in a rhino so yes he is extremely hard to hit..

REALLY!? A rhino is hard to hit but a DP is easy pickings? You do realize that the RAILGUN!!!!, which you have brought up time and again, autoglances and pens on a 2+ with a 50% of exploding a Rhino? And that it won't need 6's to hit. And that markerlights won't need 6's to hit it and remove cover?

Are you being serious right now?!

And since you're such a fan of the Tau being your example, the expensive marine unit he is with for the sole purpose of soaking up wounds will be getting mulched by Tau firepower, which again doesn't require 6's to hit before they get a chance at an armor save.

Its going to take a lot more shooting to kill a sorcerer in a rhino in a squad of 10 marines, who can always jump over to another squad of 10 marines, than it will to kill a daemon prince.

Unless you are really bad at math that should be fairly obvious.

No! Because one roll of a six on a Special Character gives him precision shot which will ignore the Sorcerer's Armor save, then he will fail LOS because!, and then he will be killed! Railgun! Right to the face! Bam! Sorcerers are useless!

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
A 60 pt sorcerer with the brand can sit in a unit in a rhino so yes he is extremely hard to hit..

REALLY!? A rhino is hard to hit but a DP is easy pickings?

Now go read his post properly. Specifically the part where he says the Sorcerer inside the Rhino is hard to hit, not the Rhino itself (a hint: you can't shoot at the Sorcerer when he is inside the Rhino at all).

 Savageconvoy wrote:
No! Because one roll of a six on a Special Character gives him precision shot which will ignore the Sorcerer's Armor save, then he will fail LOS because!, and then he will be killed! Railgun! Right to the face! Bam! Sorcerers are useless!

I wish calling people idiots wasn't frowned upon on forums, because really, this takes the biscuit.

Basically your argument is that a character will shoot into the Rhino and Precision Shot the Sorcerer inside, that the Sorcerer will fail his 1/6 chance of LOS all the time, and that that character will magically have a Railgun (in case you weren't aware, only a single character in the game can get a Railgun), and that the Chaos player was stupid enough to not give him an invul. or that they fail it every single time (that seems to be your favourite after all).

Seriously, whereas I still will never call the DP anywhere near a competitive choice, at least some people are making the effort to present it so, but the levels of ridiculous fanboyism is certainly growing around here, with the president of the fan club leading the charge above.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
No! Because one roll of a six on a Special Character gives him precision shot which will ignore the Sorcerer's Armor save, then he will fail LOS because!, and then he will be killed! Railgun! Right to the face! Bam! Sorcerers are useless!

I wish calling people idiots wasn't frowned upon on forums, because really, this takes the biscuit.

Basically your argument is that a character will shoot into the Rhino and Precision Shot the Sorcerer inside, that the Sorcerer will fail his 1/6 chance of LOS all the time, and that that character will magically have a Railgun (in case you weren't aware, only a single character in the game can get a Railgun), and that the Chaos player was stupid enough to not give him an invul. or that they fail it every single time (that seems to be your favourite after all).

Seriously, whereas I still will never call the DP anywhere near a competitive choice, at least some people are making the effort to present it so, but the levels of ridiculous fanboyism is certainly growing around here, with the president of the fan club leading the charge above.

Please tell me you took all that sarcasm literally.

Besides why'd he need a railgun when a Str8 shot will do it justice ^^

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Besides why'd he need a railgun when a Str8 shot will do it justice ^^

Well, it could be a nurgle sorc.

Kevlar wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Besides why'd he need a railgun when a Str8 shot will do it justice ^^

Well, it could be a nurgle sorc.

Touche, let me break out my Force Krak missile ^^

I seriously think that it's much better to go Black Mace than Burning Brand.

I mean, the mace will generally instasplat entire squads of terminators with a normal attack roll. It's amazingly powerful. And if you can duel on your turn, and kill the rest of the squad next turn, with very little risk to you. Smart opponents will simply refuse the duel and sacrifice the squad simply so they can expose him next turn, but even then you have a good chance of survival. The only issue is to get that first charge off without getting gibbed. Given that you move 12" even without Flying, you really should not have too much problems getting behind terrain at first turn, then assasinate their most expensive unit next turn.

Also, with I8, there is almost noone that will get to use a force weapon on your prince, except possibly Grey Knights, due to the sheer amount of bodies. Swarmlord will die with 6+d6 attacks, and even the head GK Kaldor himself will most likely die before he gets to counter attack.

I think people complain because they are trying to use the DP as before, a vehicle killer and bullet sponge. Instead he's a 250 killing machine that will eradicate almost ANY IC and deathstar in the game with little trouble, but is a melee glass cannon.

DrDuckman wrote:

I think people complain because they are trying to use the DP as before, a vehicle killer and bullet sponge. Instead he's a 250 killing machine that will eradicate almost ANY IC and deathstar in the game with little trouble, but is a melee glass cannon.

You mean any that decide to stand out in the open? Assaulting through cover that I8 turns into I1.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Now go read his post properly. Specifically the part where he says the Sorcerer inside the Rhino is hard to hit, not the Rhino itself (a hint: you can't shoot at the Sorcerer when he is inside the Rhino at all)!

Yeah I read the whole thing. And the rhino isn't a convincing argument. It's likely to get exploded and deal out more wounds to the unit and has the potential to pin the unit. Then I can shot the crap out of him.

And saying the Sorceror can take an invul save is kinda ironic, since I was trying to point out the DP is FLYING, can get a 3+ cover easy, and has a BUILT IN invul save from being a demon. He is also fearless and can't be pinned, so better than the rhino riders in that regard.

Oh and a single character can get a railgun? Tell that to the three Broadside team leaders.

And am literally fuming with butthurt at how you so proudly and confidently you just steamrolled over the subtlety of my comment. Ignoring the fact that everything I said was simply a mimicry of the other side. Amazing. I am simply stunned.

And how am I the biggest fan boy? I'm not trying to say its an instant take. I'm trying to say its not worthless. So I guess that makes me the CSM fan club president?!

The fact that you're on the other side of the argument just makes me happy of the side I picked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

You mean any that decide to stand out in the open? Assaulting through cover that I8 turns into I1.

When does I matter when smashing open a vehicle? You act like EVERY CC EVER is done over cover. There are ways around that. But frankly, you're a one trick pony. You have just two arguments that you keep repeating and never drop. You're just too stubborn to try and see differently.

Kevlar wrote:

DrDuckman wrote:

I think people complain because they are trying to use the DP as before, a vehicle killer and bullet sponge. Instead he's a 250 killing machine that will eradicate almost ANY IC and deathstar in the game with little trouble, but is a melee glass cannon.

You mean any that decide to stand out in the open? Assaulting through cover that I8 turns into I1.

Given that around 75% of the table is guaranteed to not be in cover there's a good chance of that.

They have to leave cover to come get your objectives. It's possible that some units will *gasp* not roll well and not even make it in to cover!
You've been spoiled by grenades. Learn to live without them.

Pin the unit first, you strike at initiative.
Charge an already locked unit, you strike at initiative.

But my points are irrelevant, I keep forgetting.
Your turn, bring up the T5.

I feel that a sorc inside a rhino with the brand ends up being a big waste of points at times because much like the DP, it's a unit of models, attempting to perform multiple roles, and end up doing them subparly due to total cost. If you argue the sorc in a rhino, I think you need to add in more then the cost of the sorc in the arguement as well, add in the rhino and at least the 5man squad of CSM you call out as bodyguard. What does that add up to (Since i'm at work i don't hav my book). With him being lvl 2 with the brand and no mark, the total end up being ~240pts I think. oddly enough thats the a same amount as a DP with flying brand mark and armor. I'll make a comparison between the two setups on my next break. But so far it looks kind of weak in the sorc direction.

With a mark its exactly 240 points for the whole unit

Coyote81 wrote:
I feel that a sorc inside a rhino with the brand ends up being a big waste of points at times because much like the DP, it's a unit of models, attempting to perform multiple roles, and end up doing them subparly due to total cost.

I agree, if you want to burn things, use a Heldrake to do the job instead.

Savageconvoy wrote:And saying the Sorceror can take an invul save is kinda ironic, since I was trying to point out the DP is FLYING, can get a 3+ cover easy, and has a BUILT IN invul save from being a demon. He is also fearless and can't be pinned, so better than the rhino riders in that regard.

There's no irony at all actually, because you left out the likely possibility of an invul. in your example, Kevlar on the other hand made no such assumption about flying etc.

Savageconvoy wrote:Oh and a single character can get a railgun? Tell that to the three Broadside team leaders.

Broadside Team Leader, the only character in the game who can get a Railgun. Thus only a single character in the game can get a Railgun. Work on your English.

Savageconvoy wrote:And how am I the biggest fan boy? I'm not trying to say its an instant take. I'm trying to say its not worthless. So I guess that makes me the CSM fan club president?!

Because for someone that claims not to be offing it as an auto-take, you are using wild speculation and ignorance of maths and probabilities on top of strawman comments to try and win your argument. Those are desparation moves, something you don't use when you don't care so much. There's nothing wrong with being a DP fanboy, not at all, they are cool and bad ass in concept, just don't try to pawn that off as a valid argument as to why they are a competitive choice.

Savageconvoy wrote:The fact that you're on the other side of the argument just makes me happy of the side I picked.

Random personal comment does nothing to help your argument, and only makes you look worse. It also makes it look like you have no conviction in your own argument.

Savageconvoy wrote:When does I matter when smashing open a vehicle? You act like EVERY CC EVER is done over cover. There are ways around that. But frankly, you're a one trick pony. You have just two arguments that you keep repeating and never drop. You're just too stubborn to try and see differently.

If you want to take a DP who will only smash open a few Rhinos, work away, see if any opponent cares that you spent 250+pts to do some a regular squad could do. And no, theres no way around the terrain issue. 40k is a shooty game now, and most good players play shooty armies. A quality of being a good player just happens to be being good at the game (it's in the name). Such players will stand their units in terrain and shoot at your DP rather than let it assault them in open ground, because they know what will happen to most of them if they do. And there's nothing you can do about it. Kevlar and others have made several other perfect points, this is just the one you are latching onto, because you think you have a way around it. But like I said, you don't. If you opponent stands his units in cover there is literally not a single thing you can do about. You can try and kill them by other means, but you could do that in the open too, and that's not really about the DP is it?

As a tip of debating a point, if someone is making the same point over and over, it is usually because you have yet to prove them wrong. You have stated multiple times now you have a way to avoid charging through cover if the enemy has all his units in cover, but you have yet to say what it is. So if you want to legitimise your argument, actually make one.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
As a tip of debating a point, if someone is making the same point over and over, it is usually because you have yet to prove them wrong. You have stated multiple times now you have a way to avoid charging through cover if the enemy has all his units in cover, but you have yet to say what it is. So if you want to legitimise your argument, actually make one.

rigeld2 wrote:
They have to leave cover to come get your objectives. It's possible that some units will *gasp* not roll well and not even make it in to cover!
You've been spoiled by grenades. Learn to live without them.

Pin the unit first, you strike at initiative.
Charge an already locked unit, you strike at initiative.

But my points are irrelevant, I keep forgetting.
Your turn, bring up the T5.

Coyote81 wrote:
I feel that a sorc inside a rhino with the brand ends up being a big waste of points at times because much like the DP, it's a unit of models, attempting to perform multiple roles, and end up doing them subparly due to total cost. If you argue the sorc in a rhino, I think you need to add in more then the cost of the sorc in the arguement as well, add in the rhino and at least the 5man squad of CSM you call out as bodyguard. What does that add up to (Since i'm at work i don't hav my book). With him being lvl 2 with the brand and no mark, the total end up being ~240pts I think. oddly enough thats the a same amount as a DP with flying brand mark and armor. I'll make a comparison between the two setups on my next break. But so far it looks kind of weak in the sorc direction.

But unlike the DP, the unit of troops in the rhino performs the same role as the sorcerer. You aren't adding in an extra unit to help the sorcerer, you already have troop units in rhinos, or at least you should. All the sorcerer does is give them some added psyker support and an extra weapon to shoot. They are never performing different roles.

If you were putting the sorcerer with the torrent flamer in an assault squad then that would be the same thing as running the daemon prince. It would also be kind of dumb, just like running a prince.

Use the helldrake? Why not both? Why are you and Kevlar thinking that its always an either-or choice. Different FOC and neither options are really overpriced.

I didn't mention an invul save, because the example was a poor one. If he wanted to include an invul save on the sorc then he should have stated that. But again, that's just adding to the units point cost. And now you have a very large non flying target. Good job, I'm sure a unit of marines in a rhino has proven how indestructible they are in 6th already.

Single- as in one. I said I can bring three. I'm not sure what your point is. Trying to prove that only one FOC selection can take Railguns?

Next I'm having a real hard time trying to talk to you as an adult. You wanted to call me an idiot and a fan boy because you didn't understand a sarcastic comment. Then you get on me for personal comments and straw men?! Are you Fething serious? South Park put it best, "if irony were strawberries, we'd all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now."

And now apparently vehicles = rhinos now. Good to know!

And Kevlar hasn't made any good points. He had made three that haven't really stood up, but refuses to let go.

T5 can be insta killed. Answer: it's a flyer with good cover and an invul save. It's a drawback to a beat stick. Otherwise it'd probably be overpowered and an instant pick.

Assualt in cover has already been addressed by rigeld2 and again ignored by Kevlar.

And the only other argument is that the Sorc with the brand is better. But my argument is to take a cheaper prince with the mace and why not take the Sorc too. Proving that one unit is better doesn't make the other unit "worthless"

Mimicry save yourself, you just flailing now. Your only argument is that he can be ID'd by a S10 wpn. So can 90% of things in the game. This shot to Instant Death claim only works if the DP decidees to stand still in the open & he fails his invul. If the DP goes unsupported, in the open he & any other HQ choice would be blasted to bits by a Hvy Sprt choice.

You'd be right in a total vacum. With fire support from Oblits or havocs & minimal use of cover or DSing the DP is gonna put some hurt on anyone.

 RedAngel wrote:
Mimicry save yourself, you just flailing now. Your only argument is that he can be ID'd by a S10 wpn.

Some advice for you; either read posts properly in future or just don't make up stuff, it will save you some embarassment. You claim my only argument is that he is ID'ed by S10; not once have I made that point. What I have done is present several other arguments, none of which have anything to do with S10 ID. So if your only way of trying to make an argument is to make stuff up, don't bother posting next time. This thread is really turning into a collosal joke what with the abundance of straws so many pro-DP posters are failing to grasp.

Wow. Ran a tzeentch prince today with wings, armor and gift. Played Grey Knights. Rolled multiple boons (64?), then rolled plus one to armor save, adamantium will, flesh bane and my attacks cause instant death. So2plus armor and Tzeentch is incredible.
Flew up the flank, rolled up a squad of GK terminators and 2 psyfile dreads before we called the game. Unreal how good it went.
I know its one game, but I'm sold. He has a place in my army.
My opponent was always astonished by his stats. "I8?!" "5attacks base?!" "I'm hitting on 5.s?"

 Brymm wrote:
Wow. Ran a tzeentch prince today with wings, armor and gift. Played Grey Knights. Rolled multiple boons (64?), then rolled plus one to armor save, adamantium will, flesh bane and my attacks cause instant death. So2plus armor and Tzeentch is incredible.
Flew up the flank, rolled up a squad of GK terminators and 2 psyfile dreads before we called the game. Unreal how good it went.
I know its one game, but I'm sold. He has a place in my army.
My opponent was always astonished by his stats. "I8?!" "5attacks base?!" "I'm hitting on 5.s?"

Amazing how well a WORTHLESS unit can be.

Glad to hear you did well. Hearing a GK player get stomped by Chaos always does my heart good.

I don't really care about what some guy did to some eight year old kid at a LGS. Lets see someone place in a tournament with a 300 point boat anchor in their list.

Regardless of who the players were, which is BS to dismiss Brymm off like that, the fact that a single model, which you claim is garbage, managed to wreck a top tier army by itself.

Why don't you try arguing what's been brought up instead of just waving it off. Infact, because you just waved Brymm off, I want a reason to why anyone should give a fudge about what you have to say.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Savageconvoy wrote:I'm sorry but the DP isn't a Wraithlord, an Avatar, Talos, Dreadknight, or Tyranid. It's a DP. Stop complaining about what it isn't and enjoy what it is.

I like how he goes from: "Compare the DP to these other guys! He's just the same and shouldn't get special treatment!" all the way to "Stop comparing the DP to others MCs!" in what, 2 posts?

Also, you need only one railgun shot to ID a prince, so he's not 'tying up' that much. You can easily force him down with lesser shots and punk him with the first railgun the moment he hits the ground. It's really easy.

As for 'enjoying what it is'...it's not that easy to enjoy a really subpar flyer. He may be able to do well against some woefully unprepared armies, but if that's your thing you might want to go Cosmo Kramer and go fight MMA with some 9-year-olds.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedAngel wrote:
Mimicry save yourself, you just flailing now. Your only argument is that he can be ID'd by a S10 wpn. So can 90% of things in the game. This shot to Instant Death claim only works if the DP decidees to stand still in the open & he fails his invul. If the DP goes unsupported, in the open he & any other HQ choice would be blasted to bits by a Hvy Sprt choice.

You'd be right in a total vacum. With fire support from Oblits or havocs & minimal use of cover or DSing the DP is gonna put some hurt on anyone.

That's not what he said. At all.

Newsflash: The DP will always be in the open several times during the game. If swooping, he will be out in the open and taking grounding tests when hit.

The 90% of the things in the game that can be IDed by an S10 shot usually get to ride in transports, hide in units and make LoS rolls. They ar also way cheaper.

The DP's invulnerable save is 5+. It cannot be changed. That's too poor to rely on.

Deep-Striking the DP sounds like...sheer insanity. He won't get to attack (in fact, he'll be sitting out in the open like you said he would never do), will be risking a bad scatter, cannot be guided in his arrival and will be in perfect range for enemy Rapid Fire plasma, meltaguns, etc. He may be able to toss some psyker powers if you bought them and rolled lucky, but it'll be a short career.

Can we say that the DP, in a vacuum by himself without support, is dead meat.

Of course, this is a game with multiple components and strategies. You can probably get the DP into a list and make it functionally viable.

It makes this debate a lot easier to state "The DP with wings has a niche roll like most other units; you just have to find the right one for him."