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At the most recent large 40k tournament, everyone who placed in the top 10 was using Imperial Guard allies. Every list that placed had a minimum of 6 Vendettas. So to answer your question, yes, if you want to play competitively, you do need fliers, and yes, fliers have ruined 40k, and yes, 6th edition is fething awful.

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
At the most recent large 40k tournament, everyone who placed in the top 10 was using Imperial Guard allies. Every list that placed had a minimum of 6 Vendettas. So to answer your question, yes, if you want to play competitively, you do need fliers, and yes, fliers have ruined 40k, and yes, 6th edition is fething awful.

Do you mind sharing a link to the Tournament?

 Ailaros wrote:

Glocknall wrote:Simply putting 3 drakes on the table doesn't mean you win.

And that's really the most succinct way to put it. If something is really overpowered, you should be able to walk away with most games by spamming it. If you spam helldrakes, you're throwing down nearly 600 points on something that can't hurt vehicles, and doesn't do much to heavy infantry or hordes. Hardly a game breaker.

As for your diagram, don't put them in lines, put the squad in a circle. The minimum number of hits it's possible to achieve with a flamer is 3, and that's when the flamer is in an optimal position. Torrent helps with this an awful lot, but it doesn't guarantee it. I've been up against torrent weapons a few times this edition, and displacement has made it so that a few times my opponents have only gotten 2 hits with them.

Blast and template weapons are only scary to people who don't understand displacement.

Again its not always possible to use maximum displacement in a real game. You can theory-hammer it all you want. Many times you will find yourself bunched up more than you will like. I had already considered a circular formation and the problem that brings is the bigger the unit the bigger the footprint of the unit becomes. You being to clog firelanes and grant cover saves to your opponent.

Also new wound allocation FAQ means that you my be putting your weapons out of range with that formation.

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
At the most recent large 40k tournament, everyone who placed in the top 10 was using Imperial Guard allies. Every list that placed had a minimum of 6 Vendettas. So to answer your question, yes, if you want to play competitively, you do need fliers, and yes, fliers have ruined 40k, and yes, 6th edition is fething awful.

You seem to be badly misinformed. The last big tournament I'm aware of was Seattle's TSHFT; the Best General used Dark Angels Ravenwing without any allies or flyers, while the player who won Best Overall used Tyranids.

I think the psychological impact of a helldrake is a lot heavier than it's actual in game impact some of the time. Yea, it's made for roasting MEQ and it can take a squad a turn if you're not spread out. But let's say you were expecting to play against one and you decided to ignore it. Investing in a 175 point model once, twice, or three times leaves you with less points for troops and proper upgrades for them. So if you've got a decent take all comers list and know how to play the game you still should have a good chance of winning. Play the objective.

 Sasori wrote:

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
At the most recent large 40k tournament, everyone who placed in the top 10 was using Imperial Guard allies. Every list that placed had a minimum of 6 Vendettas. So to answer your question, yes, if you want to play competitively, you do need fliers, and yes, fliers have ruined 40k, and yes, 6th edition is fething awful.

Do you mind sharing a link to the Tournament?

^^ This.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A lot of talk about formations, and I'm surprised no one has talked about the V or ZigZag:

Edit: Stupid forum script doesn't like white space, I'll try dots:

..........0.................0..........
.....0........0.......0........0.....
0.................0...................0 <<Prime spots to put Heavy/Specials Sergs

0 ><<10th guy can go anywhere really, depending on whats actually in the unit, and how you are standing in respect to the enemy. Another prime spot for the Serge if you leave it out by itself.

Placed properly with the correct angles you are looking at a maximum of 3, maybe 4 bases under the template. With 5 the formation looks similar, except cut in half obviously.

Live it, learn it, love it, use it.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
At the most recent large 40k tournament, everyone who placed in the top 10 was using Imperial Guard allies. Every list that placed had a minimum of 6 Vendettas. So to answer your question, yes, if you want to play competitively, you do need fliers, and yes, fliers have ruined 40k, and yes, 6th edition is fething awful.

Do you mind sharing a link to the Tournament?

^^ This.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A lot of talk about formations, and I'm surprised no one has talked about the V or ZigZag:

Edit: Stupid forum script doesn't like white space, I'll try dots:

..........0.................0..........
.....0........0.......0........0.....
0.................0...................0 <<Prime spots to put Heavy/Specials Sergs

0 ><<10th guy can go anywhere really, depending on whats actually in the unit, and how you are standing in respect to the enemy. Another prime spot for the Serge if you leave it out by itself.

Placed properly with the correct angles you are looking at a maximum of 3, maybe 4 bases under the template. With 5 the formation looks similar, except cut in half obviously.

Live it, learn it, love it, use it.

Two things:
1. The baleflamer can come from the side if needed
2. The footprint that one unit now takes up is pretty sizeable. What about the rest of your units?

Two things:
1. The baleflamer can come from the side if needed
2. The footprint that one unit now takes up is pretty sizeable. What about the rest of your units?

1. Sure. The middle row is the prime target for a flanking shot, and should be well beyond 9" apart from each other (the outside two that is). Again, you'd be lucky to get 4 bases, and its impossible to get more then 4.

2. I dunno, somewhere else on the 3456 cubic inches of real estate? If you are playing MeQ and have around 60 or less bases, you should have no trouble finding room for everything. Its a secondary consideration though if you are really that concerned about "auto losing" to the mean old scary Helldrake.

Admittedly the helturkey is a solid unit with a lot if killing power.

However, it still needs to be able to position into that fancy vector strike position. If you can get rid of the opponents scoring units and/or transport poppers then you can play positioning shenanigans.

Remember that a flier can move over enemy units, it cannot end movement over an enemy unit.

Admittedly though playing all flier lists when you have no AA is no fun...why don't you have AA though? Space marines have some problem's but perhaps a more productive thread would be how do you deal with hellturkeys as a ____ space marine player?

As imperial guard I just sacrifice waves of my cheap troops and laugh at the loses I take (or ignore it as I played LR tanks).

As eldar I cry at your bolters and their new longer ranges...mommy.

As dark angels (my first army back in 3rd ed.) my terminators laugh and my ravenwing die in droves but then cartwheel in behind you to lick their wounds.

Be constructive and figure out a counter for a unit that is actually really just a good example of design to function. I don't see this thread for Thunder Fire Cannons killing my foot guard off in droves (and does it ever, man if I were an IG soldier I would run then and there).

I agree it needs a better paint scheme out there. Is anyone on here a skilled painter that can get the masses excited by a new paint scheme, perhaps in blue?

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
At the most recent large 40k tournament, everyone who placed in the top 10 was using Imperial Guard allies. Every list that placed had a minimum of 6 Vendettas. So to answer your question, yes, if you want to play competitively, you do need fliers, and yes, fliers have ruined 40k, and yes, 6th edition is fething awful.

http://bloghammer.net/?p=1422 <---- big tournament

IG placed 7th and 10th. No one in the top 10 used IG as allies. Btw, the top spot went to a nids player- way to go!

Garukadon wrote:

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
At the most recent large 40k tournament, everyone who placed in the top 10 was using Imperial Guard allies. Every list that placed had a minimum of 6 Vendettas. So to answer your question, yes, if you want to play competitively, you do need fliers, and yes, fliers have ruined 40k, and yes, 6th edition is fething awful.

http://bloghammer.net/?p=1422 <---- big tournament

IG placed 7th and 10th. No one in the top 10 used IG as allies. Btw, the top spot went to a nids player- way to go!

Nids got the top overall score. However, its battle point score was the same as someone who got 19th overall. A very wide swing there based on a paint score difference.

BronzeJon wrote:
I suspect it's so good in small local metas because the only people bringing two of them will be WAAC players anyway.

Bringing two of the best unit in your codex makes you WAAC?

No.

Bringing three doesn't make you WAAC either. Makes you smart.

I'm blown away by your generalization in the quote, too. The Heldrake looks cool; who is to say someone isn't fielding them based solely on aesthetics? Or fluff?

With SM you can do a few things:

Captain with Term/Artificer Armour, MotF or Cheap throw-away techmarine behind an ADL with Quadgun or ILC.
Costs anywhere from 240 (captain with termi, + ADL + ILC) to 135 pts (techmarine + ADL + Quadgun). I'd go with a Quadgun, personally, with a throw-away techmarine for 135pts. 2+ save against Hellturkey, waste of a flamer template (1 model), you can be able to blast it out of the sky if it comes from reseves in range (take an ILC if you want to hit it no matter how far away it is...). Fairly cheap way to stop 1 hellturkey, or 3.

Another option is, before you all laugh at me, LotD + ADF with Quadgun or ILC. I, personally, wouldn't use this that often, as it's too expensive, but 3++ will laugh at the hellturkey. Give them a Lascannon, Melta and Combi-melta for a better chance of popping it.

As CSM, Forgefiends with twin Hades will kill them. 8 str 8 shots have a good chance of dropping 1 hull point per turn.

And, again, the ADL with Quad or ILC is your friend. Add a warpsmith for the best chance. (2+ armour)

There is also another point here that some seem to forget...

not everyone will be packing that ing flamer, i took my helldrake with the autocannon as an AA aid ('meh' you might say but i works nicley ). It works well enough for me and it also serves as a distraction, meanwhile the dino bots(ahem forgefiends... ) and the rest of my army get stuck in. The autcannon in my humble opinion is the multipurpose wepon that covers my arse in case the enemy flyer needs a little push into the floor, and after that a bit of tank busting/ annoying enemy units.

Problems are also caused by the fact that some players might be takign them for WAAC reasons, while i'm sure most of us take them with an eye to doing a specific role, which is why they are feared becasue they are very effective at what many use them for...

more humble views

They really aren't that bad.
The problem with 6th is that flyers have added another dimension that you need to try and cater for in an all comers list.
That makes it very hard to try and cover all possible threats, almost impossible and still remain competative. If you do try to cover all eventualities a list which is just spamming fast elements or spamming something else nasty will just wipe the floor with you as you do not have enough to deal with the spammed threat.

There are many prblem units/army concepts out there, Heldrakes are just one of them. If you are not setup to deal with them then they will cause you problems.
Like any unit, if you are not aware of its potential it will cause you problems or if you do not have a control method again it will cause you problems.

If your meta has heldrakes and you feel you will face them often or flyers as a whole then get something to deal with the threat.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Bringing two of the best unit in your codex makes you WAAC?

No.

Bringing three doesn't make you WAAC either. Makes you smart.

+1 to this.

Please let us not start a WAAC discussion. There are to many shades of right and wrong and to many mind frames to bring to the table that this will overtake this thread with another focus then the aim of the OP. What can a Marine or a Chaos space marine player use to take out the flying dragons?

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the crappy Torrent rule to begin with. If they fixed Torrent to make the Template to shoot out from the base in a straight line instead of allowing people to manipulate it in any direction they wish, I think that would fix it.

One vendetta is more than enough to dispatch a Helldrake.

The chaos player at my FLGS uses a helldrake, but he's scared of my squad of vendettas. Shoots him clean out of the sky the moment we pop in.

x13rads wrote:
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the crappy Torrent rule to begin with. If they fixed Torrent to make the Template to shoot out from the base in a straight line instead of allowing people to manipulate it in any direction they wish, I think that would fix it.

The rules are the rules my friend.
Best to work with what is current and try to mitigate the hellturkeys affect or bring some flyer control.

Lets see, Chaos and SM...Hellturkeys and Dettas would be the obvious choices.
I'm currently running both in my CSM/IG list. I need the Dettas to act as antiflyer control so my Turkeys can continue to lay down the flame for as long as possible.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

x13rads wrote:
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the crappy Torrent rule to begin with. If they fixed Torrent to make the Template to shoot out from the base in a straight line instead of allowing people to manipulate it in any direction they wish, I think that would fix it.

The rules are the rules my friend.
Best to work with what is current and try to mitigate the hellturkeys affect or bring some flyer control.

Lets see, Chaos and SM...Hellturkeys and Dettas would be the obvious choices.
I'm currently running both in my CSM/IG list. I need the Dettas to act as antiflyer control so my Turkeys can continue to lay down the flame for as long as possible.

Rules are FAQed, Errataed, and Amended all the time.

LValx wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 StormK wrote:
To those who say "it's not broke" I say "show me". Give me a vanilla counter or CSM counter that does not require me running out to buy my own Helldrakes.

The humble Stormtalon can actually be very effective against Heldrakes, as it can fly over them and fire its twin-linked assault cannon (which has 360 degrees of freedom) into their rear armor. When combined with Null Zone to mitigate the Heldrake's 5+ Invulnerable save (or force it to Evade, which is almost as good), vanilla Marines can actually deal with Heldrakes rather effectively.

If your Talon comes in first, the Heldrake can sweep you and put you in a bad position to shoot it. There are a ton of variables here, but I wouldn't say a pair, or even 3 Stormtalons would be overly effective at countering 2-3 Heldrakes. Not to mention that the Stormtalon is VERY weak vs. Necron flyers and even quite susceptible to Aegis emplacements.

This isn't to say that they don't help, I just don't believe that they help enough to mitigate the problem that Heldrakes pose.

Oh No! a counter might not be good against everything in the game?

Stormtalons are good, mobile AT that can counter a hellturkey. If you dont want to accept them then dont, but dont whine about heldrakes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LValx wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, the only thing helldrakes are really awesome against is space marine players who don't know what displacement means. And those who didn't bring enough anti-tank. And those who took way too many useless upgrades.

Put another way, they're great for hammering noob space marine players, but for everything else, they're nothing ALL that terribly special.

Ignorant statement. Even with full 2" spacing, the Heldrake will likely tag 5 marines, killing 4-5 with no saves. The vector will also average 3 dead. So that is the vast majority of a marine squad dead in one turn. Remember that with the 360 turret, the thing will ALWAYS be shooting. Any player taking 2+ Heldrakes should also be advised to take a Comms Relay to allow for maximum efficiency in turns they get to shoot.

it really depends on how many marines there are. If you only have 5, it is easy to make it so it can only hit 4. If you have 10, you can pretty easily make it so it can only hit 5.

The heldrake is only going to get 2-3 passes and all you want to do is preserve your scoring/expensive troops. Best way to do that is to have your expensive troops in rhinos and MORE scoring troops. Scouts score and are cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LValx wrote:

(without allies of course, which really only adds 1 Vendetta, which also doesn't have superb odds).

allies can bring 3 vendettas in one squadron, which will make short work of 3 helldrakes and then go on to kill any other tanks the chaos player might have.

x13rads wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:

x13rads wrote:
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the crappy Torrent rule to begin with. If they fixed Torrent to make the Template to shoot out from the base in a straight line instead of allowing people to manipulate it in any direction they wish, I think that would fix it.

The rules are the rules my friend.
Best to work with what is current and try to mitigate the hellturkeys affect or bring some flyer control.

Lets see, Chaos and SM...Hellturkeys and Dettas would be the obvious choices.
I'm currently running both in my CSM/IG list. I need the Dettas to act as antiflyer control so my Turkeys can continue to lay down the flame for as long as possible.

Rules are FAQed, Errataed, and Amended all the time.

Unless you have some kind of future sight I wouldnt worry your mind with what might be changed in the future.

LValx wrote: Simply stated lascannons and melta are EXTREMELY inefficient anti-tank.

really?

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Unless you have some kind of future sight I wouldnt worry your mind with what might be changed in the future.

It is a good point. I just realized that my post might look like a thread derailer when I should just comment on what counters/tactics work now.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 StormK wrote:
Okay, there's a lot of heat in these arguments so I'l try to explain my position.
I try to play 40k without "cheese" units. You know, I want to beat my opponents by outsmarting them, or by using better tactics.

Just throwing this out there but list building is tactics.

For Orks, it's the ONLY tactic. Once you're on the table it's CHARGE!!!!

LValx wrote: Simply stated lascannons and melta are EXTREMELY inefficient anti-tank.

What is this now?

So lets see, pulling back on topic.

If your opponent bring both Helldrakes and Vendetta's. What the hell do you do now?

 L0rdF1end wrote:
So lets see, pulling back on topic.

If your opponent bring both Helldrakes and Vendetta's. What the hell do you do now?

Bring your own Vendettas! Yay, arms race!

 L0rdF1end wrote:
So lets see, pulling back on topic.

If your opponent bring both Helldrakes and Vendetta's. What the hell do you do now?

Or Alpha-strike him off the board by turn 2.