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Ive been constantly insulted by the white knights, they are quite petty.
While some topics get old, i just don't click them, but it would hurt this forum a lot, I think, to silence people just because some don't agree that people are upset with GW and voicing their opinions.
No one's opinions are right or wrong, in that scenario.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Ive been constantly insulted by the white knights, they are quite petty.

Surely you realize the irony of this post.

Funny how the OP labels dakka users and tries to impose it's own moral agenda.
WWW is a big place so if you have concerns about this you are free to open a forum and actively control the negative trolls that we are.

It's like you are invited to a dinner at someone's house and say what they should cook a different meal for you.

What is even more funny is that by your own words your post on a hypothetical forum you control would be erased.

As long as you are polite I don't see divergent opinions = negativity.

 Kingsley wrote:
I agree that the bashing is off the charts, especially in the News and Rumors forums. It's growing increasingly tiresome to hear people complaining of being "insulted" by GW releases that they don't want to buy, and I think this sort of immaturity really detracts from the environment of the forum. If there were an alternate forum that had a higher standard of discussion in their News and Rumors section I would strongly consider migrating there.

It's possible of course that this type of forum doesn't exist at all, which is a shame. I like Dakka overall and I think it also has strong potential to become a community hub for the entire wargaming hobby, not just GW/Warmahordes. But I'd be a lot happier if we had higher standards.

For the sake of not repeating what has already been posted just a couple of comments before, did you not read Yakface and MGS's posts?

Can we therefore assume that you don't see any kind of causation between the quality of a product, the behaviour of a company, and its method of delivery, and the kind of reaction that creates with the wargaming fanbase?

Go and take a look at the Infinity forum, the Battlefront/Flames of War forum, the Warlord Games forum to name but three. All of them having nothing like the level of negativity expressed here (in the GW focused sections - other areas of the forum are fine) because those companies are generally regarded as doing the right thing with regards to the general field of producing a product for their customers, and all of the factors surrounding that. If it were possible to look at old internet posts on both this forum, Warseer, Relic & Portent or wherever from about 10 years ago you would see a general lack of negativity there as well.

In any case, I'll assume for a moment that you genuinely mean what you say, and you aren't just deliberately being facetious to get some kind of rise from the people who've tried to reason with you. As d-usa pointed out before, the 40k specific section of the forum generally has a lot less comments on GW's business practices, or at least more focus in that direction. Same too with other 40k focused forums that concentrate on a particular force, just modelling and painting or whatever. Those places might well have the 'higher-standards' you are looking for - if by that you mean a public forum that doesn't discuss prices, quality of miniatures & rules, international trading standards, WD quality, lack of releases, or the decline of GW's retail chain, then it could be that if you find a forum community that isn't aware of any of those issues, then there might not be a general atmosphere of negativity there either.

I'd also like to point out that when Wyrd was smoking an illegal substance during their Kickstarter, they managed to recover well enough to keep their player base happy and give encouraging signs about future projects.

GW gives us... a new price point of $85.00 for large monsters, no real WD content, and legal action toward people who aren't even doing anything related to their IP.

Yes, obviously it is our fault GW has a bad rep.

 Pacific wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I agree that the bashing is off the charts, especially in the News and Rumors forums. It's growing increasingly tiresome to hear people complaining of being "insulted" by GW releases that they don't want to buy, and I think this sort of immaturity really detracts from the environment of the forum. If there were an alternate forum that had a higher standard of discussion in their News and Rumors section I would strongly consider migrating there.

It's possible of course that this type of forum doesn't exist at all, which is a shame. I like Dakka overall and I think it also has strong potential to become a community hub for the entire wargaming hobby, not just GW/Warmahordes. But I'd be a lot happier if we had higher standards.

For the sake of not repeating what has already been posted just a couple of comments before, did you not read Yakface and MGS's posts?

Can we therefore assume that you don't see any kind of causation between the quality of a product, the behaviour of a company, and its method of delivery, and the kind of reaction that creates with the wargaming fanbase?

Go and take a look at the Infinity forum, the Battlefront/Flames of War forum, the Warlord Games forum to name but three. All of them having nothing like the level of negativity expressed here (in the GW focused sections - other areas of the forum are fine) because those companies are generally regarded as doing the right thing with regards to the general field of producing a product for their customers, and all of the factors surrounding that. If it were possible to look at old internet posts on both this forum, Warseer, Relic & Portent or wherever from about 10 years ago you would see a general lack of negativity there as well.

In any case, I'll assume for a moment that you genuinely mean what you say, and you aren't just deliberately being facetious to get some kind of rise from the people who've tried to reason with you. As d-usa pointed out before, the 40k specific section of the forum generally has a lot less comments on GW's business practices, or at least more focus in that direction. Same too with other 40k focused forums that concentrate on a particular force, just modelling and painting or whatever. Those places might well have the 'higher-standards' you are looking for - if by that you mean a public forum that doesn't discuss prices, quality of miniatures & rules, international trading standards, WD quality, lack of releases, or the decline of GW's retail chain, then it could be that if you find a forum community that isn't aware of any of those issues, then there might not be a general atmosphere of negativity there either.

The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down. People always give the little guy tons of slack, once they hit even half of GW's size it won't be that kind. Hell, if GW had the stocking problems of PP Dakka would probably go Nuclear and yet PP is pretty much given a free ride.

Orktavius, a word to the wise, the thread died when the usual suspects arrived on page 3.

 Pacific wrote:
If it were possible to look at old internet posts on both this forum, Warseer, Relic & Portent ...

Portent is Warseer...

Orktavius wrote:
People always give the little guy tons of slack, once they hit even half of GW's size it won't be that kind.

Well, yes, people do tend to assume that a larger, more established company with more experience in the field should be better at what they do...

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Ive been constantly insulted by the white knights, they are quite petty.

Surely you realize the irony of this post.

yes that was the joke

Orktavius wrote:

The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.

I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.

PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.

I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.

 marielle wrote:
Orktavius, a word to the wise, the thread died when the usual suspects arrived on page 3.

Well, Yakface arrived on page 3, I did and a few others.

Who are you referring to mate? And in what way did they 'kill' the thread?

 infinite_array wrote:

Orktavius wrote:

The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.

I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.

PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.

I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.

Good information to know! Thanks

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 marielle wrote:
Orktavius, a word to the wise, the thread died when the usual suspects arrived on page 3.

Well, Yakface arrived on page 3, I did and a few others.

Who are you referring to mate? And in what way did they 'kill' the thread?

The thread died when the OP self destructed around the middle of the second page after accessing the DCMs only forums somehow.

Since then, we've been hashing out opinions on the issue but otherwise unless the OP comes back to address the criticisms, it will end soon.

 WarOne wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 marielle wrote:
Orktavius, a word to the wise, the thread died when the usual suspects arrived on page 3.

Well, Yakface arrived on page 3, I did and a few others.

Who are you referring to mate? And in what way did they 'kill' the thread?

The thread died when the OP self destructed around the middle of the second page after accessing the DCMs only forums somehow.

Since then, we've been hashing out opinions on the issue but otherwise unless the OP comes back to address the criticisms, it will end soon.

Speaking of that, what was that supposed to demonstrate? That the DCM forums are filled with discussions that take seriously complaints about Dakka and its atmosphere?

Trolls never come back, and some people just love to hate on Dakka because its cool.

[/Full Circle]

 d-usa wrote:
Trolls never come back, and some people just love to hate on Dakka because its cool.

[/Full Circle]

Your avatar is appropriate for this thread.

Typical DCMs. Trolling the thread for your own sick amusement!

This is serious business, people!

 Monster Rain wrote:
Typical DCMs. Trolling the thread for your own sick amusement!

This is serious business, people!

Just write to the advertisers and point out that you will not buy from them while they continue to support the abuse.

 marielle wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Typical DCMs. Trolling the thread for your own sick amusement!

This is serious business, people!

Just write to the advertisers and point out that you will not buy from them while they continue to support the abuse.

I'm starting to wonder if your sarcasm detector is broken...

 Dysartes wrote:

 marielle wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Typical DCMs. Trolling the thread for your own sick amusement!

This is serious business, people!

Just write to the advertisers and point out that you will not buy from them while they continue to support the abuse.

I'm starting to wonder if your sarcasm detector is broken...

Nice misdirect.

Games Workshop, Blizzard has nothing to do with the bull fest. They don't need to do anything. Stop assuming "someone else" to do it. That is the lamest attitude, be a man and direct something towards progress.

In our modern society boys are finding it incredibly hard transitioning into manhood and finding happiness within themselves.

Basically boys, guys, men these days are sexually frustrated, lonely, angry, depressed, bored because they are and don't find any support from other guys (friends, buddies, fathers, men in their families). Thus, we find this weak passive-agressive b.s. all over society and even on community boards where we rather seek (& provide) support, wisdom and praise.

Every guy must read "No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert A. Glover".

 womprat49 wrote:
Games Workshop, Blizzard has nothing to do with the bull fest. They don't need to do anything. Stop assuming "someone else" to do it. That is the lamest attitude, be a man and direct something towards progress.

In our modern society boys are finding it incredibly hard transitioning into manhood and finding happiness within themselves.

Basically boys, guys, men these days are sexually frustrated, lonely, angry, depressed, bored because they are and don't find any support from other guys (friends, buddies, fathers, men in their families). Thus, we find this weak passive-agressive b.s. all over society and even on community boards where we rather seek (& provide) support, wisdom and praise.

Every guy must read "No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert A. Glover".

With all the broad strokes that people have been making in this thread I'm surprised the brush has got any tar left on it...

not sure how much support, wisdom or praise I offer others (or want)
I'd tell more to eff off but the censor's won't let me do that

Everyone can always stand to offer others a little more support, wisdom, and praise.

I really appreciate the thoughtful and constructive posts folks have made in this thread; I'd like to thank Kronk, MeanGreenStompa, and Yakface in particular for their time and sincerity.

I'd also like to thank all of you reading this in general for helping make this forum a great place to spend time. I know there is a good deal of negativity (and honestly, there always has been a fair bit of that, going back all the nearly fourteen years I've been on here), but there's also a great deal of positive, useful and friendly discussion as well. To some extent we fulfill our own prophecies about what kind of a forum it is or discussions we're going to have when we choose what we put out there, and which posts we're going to spend time focusing on and responding to. Each of us has the power to respond to and reinforce and encourage good posts and constructive discussion, and to ignore and marginalize puerile and unnecessarily-negative junk by not responding to it.

 marielle wrote:
Orktavius, a word to the wise, the thread died when the usual suspects arrived on page 3.

Explain yourself. We seemed to be having reasonable discussion until this post.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Everyone can always stand to offer others a little more support, wisdom, and praise.

I really appreciate the thoughtful and constructive posts folks have made in this thread; I'd like to thank Kronk, MeanGreenStompa, and Yakface in particular for their time and sincerity.

I'd also like to thank all of you reading this in general for helping make this forum a great place to spend time. I know there is a good deal of negativity (and honestly, there always has been a fair bit of that, going back all the nearly fourteen years I've been on here), but there's also a great deal of positive, useful and friendly discussion as well. To some extent we fulfill our own prophecies about what kind of a forum it is or discussions we're going to have when we choose what we put out there, and which posts we're going to spend time focusing on and responding to. Each of us has the power to respond to and reinforce and encourage good posts and constructive discussion, and to ignore and marginalize puerile and unnecessarily-negative junk by not responding to it.

And I would like to take the time to thank you as well Mannahnin, If all of the mods on this website had as much common sense and impartiality as you do, standing as a bulwark against those that practice flagrant hypocrisy and cronyism, this website would be even better than it is now, and one of your most witty and handsome posters would be free to post in all of it.

No GES... I'm not talking about you.

 kronk wrote:

 marielle wrote:
Orktavius, a word to the wise, the thread died when the usual suspects arrived on page 3.

Explain yourself. We seemed to be having reasonable discussion until this post.

The funny thing is that Marielle often posts some really interesting & knowledgeable stuff in the history gaming section of the board. But anything regarding GW and it becomes his own version of the Ardennes offensive (there we go, appropriate history reference where you can draw your own comparisons from that battle + finally an invocation of Godwin's Law )

 marielle wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 marielle wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Typical DCMs. Trolling the thread for your own sick amusement!

This is serious business, people!

Just write to the advertisers and point out that you will not buy from them while they continue to support the abuse.

I'm starting to wonder if your sarcasm detector is broken...

Nice misdirect.

Not intending to misdirect - genuinely wondering about it.

I can't think of a time I've seen someone refer to something online as "serious business" where it has been a serious statement.

A new contender enters the ring!

I've not wandered into Dakka Discussions for... well, years, really, other than to add the occasional remark to the D6 Generation threads. But I was looking for something to distract me from Call the Midwife (all too emotionally fraught for me) and fancied a good argument, so here I am.

So let me wind this back to the OP and the point of the thread: to what extent is the community responsible for its own atmosphere and attitude?

I'm going to take this back to tacks and make what is the obvious point (although no one's mentioned it to date): the "community" cannot be held responsible for anything. Only individuals can be held responsible for their words and attitudes and, in that, well, this is the Internet. Our only responsibility - and arguably not even that - is to be honest.

It is a fact of all communities that the loudest voices are invariably raised in complaint, and although Games Workshop may not, corporately be the most involved with its public, but don't make the mistake of believing that its many, many employees aren't reading this, nor that they don't take the opinions of this and other forums to heart. They are just smart enough to not post openly or, indeed, often.

Nevertheless, however much the opinions of Dakkaites and others may personally hurt individual writers and designers, corporately, GW loves your hate. Speaking as the owner-writer-designer-sculptor-artist of a very, very small, very, very young games company, I would be positively delighted to have GW's volume of negative feedback.

In fact, just the other day, I had one of my games dismissed by "not as good as [another game I wrote, currently not available for sale]". Which is the opposite of damning with faint praise - praising with faint criticism, perhaps? Because just about all of those complaining have bought their products, play their games and aren't stopping, just because they're complaining. Complaints come from the heart. Hate isn't the opposite of love, after all.

So no, the community isn't responsible, and individuals need not moderate their complaints.

R.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.

Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.

My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?

So you ask us to Ignore all the shortcomings of Games Workshops Products, and Act as if nothing is wrong? is this what are you saying?

The thing is I personaly want "Tiny tim" with his mommys credit card to buy another product then Games Workshops. Why? because I personaly think Games Workshop has a broken system, 40k being the worst of them. I also think that it cost way to much money to get into GW games.. And in the end the rules are just so borken its not even fun to play. There are other much better options. Forums is a way that I personaly can voice my opinion on the subject. That you personaly dont like what I have to say, or call me a troll dosent change the fact that I dont agree with you. It also dosent change the fact that I have evidence to back up my claims about why 40k for example is a broken game system.

Facts will always triumph in the end. Blizzard still has a decent game in WoW... You can not compare Blizzard forum trolling to concerned customers voicing there opinion about why they think people should devote their energi into other better products. Its better to compare what is happening on these forums to what you would read if you visit a Review site. For example I'm looking to buy a new TV.. I see this Samsung that looks interesting, I go on an independent forum, and soon find out that this particular model is plagued with manafacturing errors, and if I'm looking for a 52 videscreen with these specifications a few other brands might be better suited for my needs. Then you come along and say that I should Buy Samsung, and the only reason you give for why. Is "ITs samsung"..

"The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day" you should ask yourself why? I have the answer the veterans of this Hobby are dead tired of Games Workshop. We have Zero Respect left for them, and we will no longer advocate their products. This is what happens when you ignore you loyal customer base... Dont uptade your rules, and release Unbalanced cheezy rules. 10 Years ago there were no real options to games workshop, today there are alot of better games out there. And I for one want the NEW kidds that come into the hobby to play these games instead... They are cheaper to get into, they are more balanced and more user friendly.. Most of them are superior when it comes to the "rules" then any GW game. GW still have nice looking miniatures but they are way overpriced for what you get...