Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You can't change your points based on what your opponent chooses. That's the problem. If you show up to play a game, you have an army. You can't say, "hold on, I'm going to rebuild my entire list to counter your one broken unit."

 Sigvatr wrote:

I did not use the chess comparison to compare Teclis to other casters. I used it to explain balance, mostly in Warhammer's magic phase. Teclis absolutely dominates the magic phase and breaks the "balanced" state thast's accomplished by the normal magic rules; i.e. the balance of IF coming with consequences and IF being a rare occurence unless you force it. The other thing is that magic is the most important phase in the game - or let's rather say that it's the most influential one as the melee phase can hardly be influenced anymore. If you absolutely dominate the magic phase, you're a lot closer to victory.

The Magic Phase, like any other phase in the game, is certainly not balanced and it's foolish to say so. The movement phase is certainly not balanced. If I'm playing dwarves and my opponent has an (perhaps only almost) entirely mounted army, then I'm at a disadvantage, but I wouldn't kick up a fuss saying that everything over Movement Value X should be nerfed. The same goes for the shooting, close combat and, of course, magic phase. I can think of many examples for each.

However, if you're at a disadvantage in a certain phase, you'll most likely make up for it elsewhere. Lets take the previous example of Dwarves vs Mounted Army. Yes, the Mounted Army is much better in the movement phase but, as mounted models tend to be fairly expensive, the Dwarves will probably have the advantage of numbers. So, yes, being against Teclis does put you at a disadvantage in the Magic Phase, but you will almost certainly have made up for it elsewhere, from advantages you have over High Elves as standard, and advantages you'll have over an opponent who's spend hundreds of points on a single model. Teclis may be undercosted, but he's worth the same as a fair few Swordmasters...

Phases are not meant to be balanced. They balance against each other.


Magic>Big steadfast blocks>small elite units>magic

 The Shadow wrote:
So, yes, being against Teclis does put you at a disadvantage in the Magic Phase, but you will almost certainly have made up for it elsewhere, from advantages you have over High Elves as standard, and advantages you'll have over an opponent who's spend hundreds of points on a single model. Teclis may be undercosted, but he's worth the same as a fair few Swordmasters...

This implies every HE army without Teclis is at an inherent disadvantage due to some basic HE shortcoming. It also presumes that whatever else you are making up against Teclis doesn't involve magic of any kind. And that you didn't also spend hundreds of points on a single model, who is almost certainly suckier than Teclis.

I feel like the people who are sort-of defending Teclis are missing... something. It's hard to put my finger on what, exactly.

Balance is based on a standard. Imbalance, either in overpowered-ness or underpowered-ness, is usually due to a difference in standard.

An example to illustrate what I mean by this: Lets say that a basic human statline (4M, 1W, 1A, 7Ld, and otherwise 3s across the board) is "standardized" to 10 points. You get a single model with a human statline at 10 points. For each point higher or lower somewhere on the statline, the cost for a model goes up or down appropriately. This increase or decrease in cost depends on the rules framework upon which the game is based - meaning, if movement is more important within the rules than strength, then an increase in movement will cost more than an increase in strength. And so on.

So, a human model at 10 points is "balanced" when compared to a demon model at 15 points because the demon model's cost reflects the total amount of increases and decreases that the model gets over and above (or below) what the human model is getting.

"Imbalance" comes into play usually because of a different standard, but this can be easier defined by saying that a unit is undercosted or overcosted. If that same demon model, which is balanced around the human statline standard, costs 13 points instead of 15 then we would say that it's overpowered or undercosted, which is basically the same thing. It is powered OVER the standard to which is it compared. What's really happening here, though, is that it's actually balanced against a DIFFERENT standard, one in which the stat increases are only worth 13 points instead of 15, and yet these two models are played in the same game with the same rules framework.

So, there are at least two major problems that can crop up in competitive games:

1) A unit costs too little for the benefit it brings, such that these benefits can be stacked higher than they normally would be. This is the "undercosted" situation.

2) A unit is so powerful that cost is irrelevant, as it stacks your chances of winning above 50% simply by its inclusion.

Imagine if there were a model with a special rule stating that you win the game if this model is still on the table at the start of your second turn. This model costs 1500 points and removes the normal force organization restrictions, so you can always take it as long as you're playing a game of at least 1500 points. Of course, tournaments are normally played at 2400 or 2500 points, so you've still got about 1000 points worth of protection that you can provide for this unit.

Would anyone ever not take the unit, in a purely competitive setting?

So Teclis ends up being a bit of both. He's undercosted for the level of power that he brings in a rules framework that (arguably) puts too much emphasis on the magic phase, and he's SO powerful that, if you CAN take him, you always will (assuming your primary objective is winning).

Essentially, the disadvantages of taking him are not large enough (or balanced to the same standard, if you will) to warrant disinclusion, and the increased chance of winning that he brings is not equivalent to the disadvantage that you incur by taking him (having less total models on the board because he's fairly expensive, or whatever).

In a game that I am playing (not a story that I am reading), I want to struggle for an equal chance at victory because my opponent is doing the same thing and we started on equal footing, and I want to hope and believe that through the application of superior skills (in whatever way I choose, be it magic, or shooting, or combat) I can tilt the scales in my favor and eventually end the game as the victor. Some people like extremely uphill struggles for this equal chance at victory, which ultimately boil down to an exercise in mathematics in which the odds are always stacked against you, but I am not one of those people and I don't play Wood Elves. Occasionally, I like this kind of game, and a win in a game like this usually feels more epic because I overcame even WORSE odds, but if I have to lose 5 games in a row before I win game 6 (and probably only because I got lucky and rolled like a beast while my opponent couldn't roll a 2 to save his life), then eventually I'm going to get... tired.

This is why I don't like Teclis, and/or a rules framework in which the magic phase is too important when compared to the other phases.

Sorry for the long post.

Captaintyrius wrote:

Malekith THIS GUY is from the time of the original daemonic incursions his magic should be close to the power of a slann if not close to the power of lord kroak
Morathi: she INVENTED dark magic she was the first elf to MASTER it she should make teclis cry like a little baby and make Slanns worried by her appearing
Teclis should be not much more than a normal archmage except he has a special staff (and btw he had to use same stuff to beat malekith which involved breaking said staff so he shouldnt even have it anymore)
Nagash should be weaker than Morathi and Malekith as both Morathi and Malekith have noth masted and perfected Dark Magic

Not going to argue the Slann, since they're obvious. I'd argue that Fateweaver should be on the level of Slanns, though. He's the Champion of the Chaos God of Magic, after all.

Now, on to Teclis. You do realize that there's current fluff in the High Elf Army Book where Teclis out-magics Malekith in a 1v1, yes? Furthermore, the Army Book speculates that Teclis is equal to Nagash in power. As such, we have to draw the conclusion that both Nagash and Teclis are more powerful than Malekith, and that Teclis exceeds the power of the Council of Thirteen combined, as evident by their fight against a weakened Nagash while supporting Alcadizaar.

Tangent, I can understand and agree with just about everything you said, but I think there's still a clear difference as to what different players expect when we play Warhammer.

In short, it sounds as if you wish to play a game vs. your opponent in which tactics and generalship will determine the victor for the day, or at the very least be the deciding factors.

However, I don't find that ever to be the case in Warhammer, not so long as you have different armies facing eachother. If you want that battle, then set up two identical armies, and I mean completely the same. Same army, same Lord, Hero, Core, Special, and Rare choices. Everything else (deployment, unit formations, etc.) are up to each of you. That is the only way tactics and generalship will be the deciding factor, because you KNOW you were put on a level playing field.

With army book publications spread out over a decade between printings, some as old as two editions ago, and the seemingly endless variety of different units and playstyles, no two armies are ever on "equal grounds" when it comes time to start a battle; one army is always favored to win over the other based upon what counters what most effectively. It's incredibly rare to have two complete strangers meet up for a match with different armies and have each one be a perfect counter for the other.

That being said, I'd argue that when playing a battle, you are going to be (largely) either fighting an uphill battle, or a downhill one. Including a character like Teclis just puts the odds comfortably in your favor.

As for other trade-offs, consider that I can take a lvl 4 book of hoeth archmage (offensively just as powerful as Teclis IMHO) AND my BSB for nearly the same price as just taking Teclis.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
So, yes, being against Teclis does put you at a disadvantage in the Magic Phase, but you will almost certainly have made up for it elsewhere, from advantages you have over High Elves as standard, and advantages you'll have over an opponent who's spend hundreds of points on a single model. Teclis may be undercosted, but he's worth the same as a fair few Swordmasters...

This implies every HE army without Teclis is at an inherent disadvantage due to some basic HE shortcoming. It also presumes that whatever else you are making up against Teclis doesn't involve magic of any kind. And that you didn't also spend hundreds of points on a single model, who is almost certainly suckier than Teclis.

That wasn't what I was implying at all, just because a HE army does not include Teclis, certainly doesn't mean it's at a disadvantages. What I meant by "advantages you have over High Elves as standard" is something relating to the army wide traits of the armies involved. For example, if I was playing against High Elves with Dwarves or WoC, I'd have an advantage in the sense that my troops are generally far harder to kill, due to a higher toughness and better armour. Similarly, if I were using Goblins or Zombie/Skeleton Heavy VC, I'd have an advantage of numbers.

@Tangent (not quoting, due to size): I do get what you're saying and I agree that taking Teclis will give you better odds of winning before you've even got to your match, and yes, if you really do want to win with HE, then you should take him. I'm not really defending Teclis as such, just giving my view on things, on both sides of the argument.

Aipoch wrote:
As for other trade-offs, consider that I can take a lvl 4 book of hoeth archmage (offensively just as powerful as Teclis IMHO) AND my BSB for nearly the same price as just taking Teclis.

Agreed. People always miss this. To be honest, if Teclis was made something stupid like 800-900 points, and the book was kept the same, people would just move on to complaining about the book. The book should not be underestimated at all, though I guess at least it doesn't come with Loremaster of a Lore you can choose after seeing your opponent's army.

That's a bad justification:

The game isn't balanced. You shouldn't expect it to be balanced. Therefore, when I use something imbalanced, it's okay. Also, I could use something that also might be imbalanced, which makes the other imbalance fine.

As for the argument that armies might be at disadvantages because of what they chose, you're right. But no one knows that. If you took all slow infantry and your enemy took all template-spamming war machines, spells, etc., the infantry is in trouble. But neither of you knew that. It could have been completely reversed. You can know you're facing Teclis; the player can walk up to you with a painted Teclis model; he can have it tattooed on his forehead. And he still has that advantage no matter what you do. No one minds facing random match-ups (some uneven) in a game with random dice rolls. No one will deny that happens. People are saying there is an imbalance beyond the randomness you face.

If you know your enemy has Mournfang [or whatever unit] and you do everything you can to prepare for it, and you both roll average, and he still crushes you. That unit is probably unbalanced.

It was like Desert Storm war. They knew we were coming. They knew what we'd be bringing. They knew when. It didn't matter. The US army was OP compared to the Iraqi army. If you were recreating that as a board game, it would really suck playing Iraqi forces no matter what the fluff says. "Hey, I lose another 15 tanks. Did any of your guys get PTSD at least?"

DukeRustfield wrote:


As for the argument that armies might be at disadvantages because of what they chose, you're right. But no one knows that. If you took all slow infantry and your enemy took all template-spamming war machines, spells, etc., the infantry is in trouble. But neither of you knew that. It could have been completely reversed. You can know you're facing Teclis; the player can walk up to you with a painted Teclis model; he can have it tattooed on his forehead. And he still has that advantage no matter what you do. No one minds facing random match-ups (some uneven) in a game with random dice rolls. No one will deny that happens. People are saying there is an imbalance beyond the randomness you face.

This is true, but not necessarily as a concern. You don't need to know that you'll be playing High Elves beforehand to turn up at the game with your goblins, see you'll be playing High Elves and think "Oh, well he'll dominate the Magic Phase, but I'll outnumber him 5:1". And finally, I'm not trying to argue that Teclis is not broken or unbalanced, he is. I'm just giving my opinions on the subject, though I guess you could say I'm arguing for the sake of it. That's irrelevant though, I find this topic interesting, so comment a lot I shall.

DukeRustfield wrote:
If you know your enemy has Mournfang [or whatever unit] and you do everything you can to prepare for it, and you both roll average, and he still crushes you. That unit is probably unbalanced.

It was like Desert Storm war. They knew we were coming. They knew what we'd be bringing. They knew when. It didn't matter. The US army was OP compared to the Iraqi army. If you were recreating that as a board game, it would really suck playing Iraqi forces no matter what the fluff says. "Hey, I lose another 15 tanks. Did any of your guys get PTSD at least?"

Using real life situations as analogies is often a bad idea. After all, the armies in said war didn't have to stick to the same point value, or make sure they weren't taking too many Rare Units. I'll say it again, I am aware that Teclis is OP, and will not try to deny that fact but even so, as with anything, you'll have advantages over an opponent who takes Teclis, even though, by doing so, your opponent has more advantages. Exploiting your advantages will often lead to victory (as always), and this is especially true if you know you'll be facing him. After all, you can, as with anything, prepare for him. Feedback scroll, anyone?

 Aipoch wrote:
Tangent, I can understand and agree with just about everything you said, but I think there's still a clear difference as to what different players expect when we play Warhammer.

In short, it sounds as if you wish to play a game vs. your opponent in which tactics and generalship will determine the victor for the day, or at the very least be the deciding factors.

However, I don't find that ever to be the case in Warhammer, not so long as you have different armies facing eachother. If you want that battle, then set up two identical armies, and I mean completely the same. Same army, same Lord, Hero, Core, Special, and Rare choices. Everything else (deployment, unit formations, etc.) are up to each of you. That is the only way tactics and generalship will be the deciding factor, because you KNOW you were put on a level playing field.

With army book publications spread out over a decade between printings, some as old as two editions ago, and the seemingly endless variety of different units and playstyles, no two armies are ever on "equal grounds" when it comes time to start a battle; one army is always favored to win over the other based upon what counters what most effectively. It's incredibly rare to have two complete strangers meet up for a match with different armies and have each one be a perfect counter for the other.

That being said, I'd argue that when playing a battle, you are going to be (largely) either fighting an uphill battle, or a downhill one. Including a character like Teclis just puts the odds comfortably in your favor.

As for other trade-offs, consider that I can take a lvl 4 book of hoeth archmage (offensively just as powerful as Teclis IMHO) AND my BSB for nearly the same price as just taking Teclis.

Yeah man, I get you. My point though, really, is something that Duke basically said in not-so-many-words. Essentially, I want to be tricked. I am trickable. If the game gives me an illusion of balance that is so good that I don't notice it's an illusion, then I'm fine with that and I would probably argue that the game is balanced. You know what MIGHT be overpowered? Imperial Guard infantry. I think they're balanced, though, and don't mind playing against them. You know what I KNOW is overpowered? Vendettas. As such, I don't like playing against Vendettas but I don't mind facing infantry.

I accept that there's an inherent unbalance in a game with so many factors, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief (which I can't do on the internet talking about it but which I CAN do while I'm playing it) for a game that seems mostly balanced and is, ultimately, fun. It boils down to the outliers of balance that ruin the experience, and force me into a frame of mind in which the illusion of balance is shattered and I can't ignore the fact that the hill has an upward slope. Teclis is one such outlier.

DukeRustfield wrote:Considering he will be in a group with likely 2 other models who can accept challenges and he has LoS you can't always simply just target him. Unless someone decides to run him solo and put him in the front of their army. And that has probably happened never times out of never.

Kairos is the right hand of Tzeentch. You know, the god of magic. He even knows things that Tzeentch doesn't. Perfect vision of the future, perfect vision of the past. Greater Daemon and the only thing that survived the well of eternity. I don't, it's hard for me to think of anything that should be better at magic. And as powerful as he is, I don't think he was too much. As he was a monster that sucked at combat. I think he'll get a big point reduction, but not sure what will happen with his magic. Probably be made a whole lot less complicated.

Amon'chakai is stronger than Kairos, magically speaking, and not crippled in terms of physical combat either unlike the blind chicken. Here's to hoping he's finally back in the book (after all, he was mentioned in Warriors of Chaos for the first time in over a decade).

AngelofBlood wrote:I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

And what are those of us like my Wood Elves who don't have war machines meant to do? Fury of Kurnous (or whatever out 'charge 2d6" forward" spell is called) a treeman at him and hope to roll well?

High Elves get Teclis? I want Ariel back. She's supposed to be so powerful that she was too strong to be included in the tabletop game, after all...

 Furyou Miko wrote:

AngelofBlood wrote:I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

And what are those of us like my Wood Elves who don't have war machines meant to do? Fury of Kurnous (or whatever out 'charge 2d6" forward" spell is called) a treeman at him and hope to roll well?

High Elves get Teclis? I want Ariel back. She's supposed to be so powerful that she was too strong to be included in the tabletop game, after all...

More to the point, what are you supposed to do when the Teclis player's Great Eagles rip all the crew of the warmachines you did have apart?

 The Shadow wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

AngelofBlood wrote:I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

And what are those of us like my Wood Elves who don't have war machines meant to do? Fury of Kurnous (or whatever out 'charge 2d6" forward" spell is called) a treeman at him and hope to roll well?

High Elves get Teclis? I want Ariel back. She's supposed to be so powerful that she was too strong to be included in the tabletop game, after all...

More to the point, what are you supposed to do when the Teclis player's Great Eagles rip all the crew of the warmachines you did have apart?

If your war machines are key to victory then you should probably protect them from said great eagles

Jayo'r wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

AngelofBlood wrote:I don't get why people use him. I just use a standard arch mage so I can still field a prince with my Dragon Princes. IMO he dies too easly too quickly anyone with half a brain puts all of their war machines on his bunker unit for the first turn or two. The one time I've used him he was dead by turn 3 (even with his awesomeness hes isn't immortal) IMO hes a waste of points to begun with.

And what are those of us like my Wood Elves who don't have war machines meant to do? Fury of Kurnous (or whatever out 'charge 2d6" forward" spell is called) a treeman at him and hope to roll well?

High Elves get Teclis? I want Ariel back. She's supposed to be so powerful that she was too strong to be included in the tabletop game, after all...

More to the point, what are you supposed to do when the Teclis player's Great Eagles rip all the crew of the warmachines you did have apart?

If your war machines are key to victory then you should probably protect them from said great eagles

Easier said than done, but here we go onto various tactics and counters to different units, a discussion which could go on endlessly. I guess it brings back the point about advantages and making the most of them. If you have war machines on your side, then you've got an advantage over a HE army, even one that uses Teclis, because Repeater Bolt Throwers are meh at best. Make the most of this advantage and you'll find it a lot easier to win.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
And what are those of us like my Wood Elves who don't have war machines meant to do? Fury of Kurnous (or whatever out 'charge 2d6" forward" spell is called) a treeman at him and hope to roll well?

You laugh at poor old Teclis as you have too many units for him to throw six dice at, which means he has a significantly lower chance of rolling a double meaning when he casts, he is just a plain jane level 4, vs your level 4 with wand of wych elm (the best dispelling item in the game).

 The Shadow wrote:
If you have war machines on your side, then you've got an advantage over a HE army, even one that uses Teclis, because Repeater Bolt Throwers are meh at best. Make the most of this advantage and you'll find it a lot easier to win.

I don't understand how my warmachines are counters to teclis. A good he player will only allow me to get max 3 rounds of shooting(more like two, but lets just argue that I get lucky and intercept his great eagles).

Empire:
cannon - averages 4-5 wounds per turn assuming no misfire
Mortar - str 2 now. Even if its a dead hit that's average 9 wounds.
Helblaster volley gun - why are you within 24" of this?
Helblaster rocket launcher - I think the average against T3, is about 6-9 wounds depending on scatters.

So two turns of firing will average about 40 wounds? Your defensive block should still have around 10 wounds left? Everything else is at full strength for the most part and teclis can now resume.

And if you say I'll do enough to flee, I'll ask you why the bsb isn't nearby.

My warmachines are great. They're an advantage to my army just like ASF is for you. But they are in no way a counter to teclis.

Stoupe wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
If you have war machines on your side, then you've got an advantage over a HE army, even one that uses Teclis, because Repeater Bolt Throwers are meh at best. Make the most of this advantage and you'll find it a lot easier to win.

I don't understand how my warmachines are counters to teclis. A good he player will only allow me to get max 3 rounds of shooting(more like two, but lets just argue that I get lucky and intercept his great eagles).

Empire:
cannon - averages 4-5 wounds per turn assuming no misfire
Mortar - str 2 now. Even if its a dead hit that's average 9 wounds.
Helblaster volley gun - why are you within 24" of this?
Helblaster rocket launcher - I think the average against T3, is about 6-9 wounds depending on scatters.

So two turns of firing will average about 40 wounds? Your defensive block should still have around 10 wounds left? Everything else is at full strength for the most part and teclis can now resume.

And if you say I'll do enough to flee, I'll ask you why the bsb isn't nearby.

My warmachines are great. They're an advantage to my army just like ASF is for you. But they are in no way a counter to teclis.

They're not counters, I never said they were, they're just an advantage.

If you were facing Teclis, you'd be better off having, say, three stone throwers instead of an equal amount of points worth of combat troops or even ranged troops because, unlike other things, Warmachines can hit and kill Teclis from a distance. They might not be terribly successful (something that depends on numerous factors) but they're better than other things because those other things literally have no chance of hitting Teclis (without eliminating his unit first, of course). And before you mention fleeing, Warmachines can make the unit flee as well, so that equals out.

 The Shadow wrote:


If you were facing Teclis, you'd be better off having, say, three stone throwers instead of an equal amount of points worth of combat troops or even ranged troops because, unlike other things, Warmachines can hit and kill Teclis from a distance. They might not be terribly successful (something that depends on numerous factors) but they're better than other things because those other things literally have no chance of hitting Teclis (without eliminating his unit first, of course). And before you mention fleeing, Warmachines can make the unit flee as well, so that equals out.

Most armies can only field 2 Stone Throwers anyway as they are rare choices. They are, however, not a counter to Teclis at all, as you correctly stated, and aiming to kill Teclis with warmachines is terrible idea. First of all, you need to roll a hit, you then need to wound and then need to hope for your enemy to roll a 1 on his LOS and THEN hope for the 1d6 wounds to roll high enough. And if you bring a lot of war machines, watch Teclis deciding to bring LoH to the battlefield.

Teclis does not have a hard counter. Period. He can only be brought down by immense luck and / or special items such as Cupped Hands of the Broken Ones. If you're up vs. Teclis, luck is the most reliable thing to help you.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:


If you were facing Teclis, you'd be better off having, say, three stone throwers instead of an equal amount of points worth of combat troops or even ranged troops because, unlike other things, Warmachines can hit and kill Teclis from a distance. They might not be terribly successful (something that depends on numerous factors) but they're better than other things because those other things literally have no chance of hitting Teclis (without eliminating his unit first, of course). And before you mention fleeing, Warmachines can make the unit flee as well, so that equals out.

Most armies can only field 2 Stone Throwers anyway as they are rare choices. They are, however, not a counter to Teclis at all, as you correctly stated, and aiming to kill Teclis with warmachines is terrible idea. First of all, you need to roll a hit, you then need to wound and then need to hope for your enemy to roll a 1 on his LOS and THEN hope for the 1d6 wounds to roll high enough. And if you bring a lot of war machines, watch Teclis deciding to bring LoH to the battlefield.

Teclis does not have a hard counter. Period. He can only be brought down by immense luck and / or special items such as Cupped Hands of the Broken Ones. If you're up vs. Teclis, luck is the most reliable thing to help you.

Honestly, if my War Machines made Teclis take Heavens, I'd think that they'd done their job already. There are far scarier things Teclis can be doing with other Lores. Obviously he's still nasty, but still...

And like I say, Warmachines aren't a great option but they are an advantage because at least you have some chance to hit Teclis.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:


If you were facing Teclis, you'd be better off having, say, three stone throwers instead of an equal amount of points worth of combat troops or even ranged troops because, unlike other things, Warmachines can hit and kill Teclis from a distance. They might not be terribly successful (something that depends on numerous factors) but they're better than other things because those other things literally have no chance of hitting Teclis (without eliminating his unit first, of course). And before you mention fleeing, Warmachines can make the unit flee as well, so that equals out.

Most armies can only field 2 Stone Throwers anyway as they are rare choices. They are, however, not a counter to Teclis at all, as you correctly stated, and aiming to kill Teclis with warmachines is terrible idea. First of all, you need to roll a hit, you then need to wound and then need to hope for your enemy to roll a 1 on his LOS and THEN hope for the 1d6 wounds to roll high enough. And if you bring a lot of war machines, watch Teclis deciding to bring LoH to the battlefield.

Teclis does not have a hard counter. Period. He can only be brought down by immense luck and / or special items such as Cupped Hands of the Broken Ones. If you're up vs. Teclis, luck is the most reliable thing to help you.

Honestly, if my War Machines made Teclis take Heavens, I'd think that they'd done their job already. There are far scarier things Teclis can be doing with other Lores. Obviously he's still nasty, but still...

And like I say, Warmachines aren't a great option but they are an advantage because at least you have some chance to hit Teclis.

The chance for him dying via a miscast is higher than killing him with any warmachine...

 Sigvatr wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:


If you were facing Teclis, you'd be better off having, say, three stone throwers instead of an equal amount of points worth of combat troops or even ranged troops because, unlike other things, Warmachines can hit and kill Teclis from a distance. They might not be terribly successful (something that depends on numerous factors) but they're better than other things because those other things literally have no chance of hitting Teclis (without eliminating his unit first, of course). And before you mention fleeing, Warmachines can make the unit flee as well, so that equals out.

Most armies can only field 2 Stone Throwers anyway as they are rare choices. They are, however, not a counter to Teclis at all, as you correctly stated, and aiming to kill Teclis with warmachines is terrible idea. First of all, you need to roll a hit, you then need to wound and then need to hope for your enemy to roll a 1 on his LOS and THEN hope for the 1d6 wounds to roll high enough. And if you bring a lot of war machines, watch Teclis deciding to bring LoH to the battlefield.

Teclis does not have a hard counter. Period. He can only be brought down by immense luck and / or special items such as Cupped Hands of the Broken Ones. If you're up vs. Teclis, luck is the most reliable thing to help you.

Honestly, if my War Machines made Teclis take Heavens, I'd think that they'd done their job already. There are far scarier things Teclis can be doing with other Lores. Obviously he's still nasty, but still...

And like I say, Warmachines aren't a great option but they are an advantage because at least you have some chance to hit Teclis.

The chance for him dying via a miscast is higher than killing him with any warmachine...

Yes, but it's still better to have that little extra chance than not.

As a 40k player with no knowledge of Fantasy I can't talk to this thread very well but I can note GW does not do named characters well in general.

All these calls for the nerf at also need to be balanced with an appreciation of what change brings. Spending years collecting and painting an army only for new rules to be released that dramatically change the viability are not desirable. In 40k vehicles got nerfed hard and fliers proved to be hard to dwalmwith when 6th Ed came out, which sounds similar to the increased importance of magic and decreased power of Calvary in Fantasy 8th?

So as a bystander my view is sure, tone him down so you will see a mix of other HQ choices in competitive HE armies besides Teclis, but wanting him to be wiped out is not a great solution, same as it would not be for any army.

Anything that encourages GW to make whole existing builds obsolete in one swoop should be avoided.

I heard rumours that Teclis will still be good (as befits his fluff) but he will be priced out of lower points level games.

Acharon is still in. He's the guy who is supposed to end the world. If Teclis can slap him around you'll always have a footnote at the bottom of every bad guy*

*this guy is only powerful if Teclis is too bored to kill him.

I think the Teclis hate is somewhat justified, but he's a caster written for an edition where magic was substantially less potent. GW seems to shy away from heavy re-writes in FAQs so he was always gonna bring the hurt. Teclis isn't op cos he's badly written/play tested etc he just benefitted from chance. Come next month when the book is re done he will be back where he should be, on a par with the best casters in the game.

 John Rainbow wrote:
I heard rumours that Teclis will still be good (as befits his fluff) but he will be priced out of lower points level games.

Just make him 601 points and he is perfectly balanced.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 John Rainbow wrote:
I heard rumours that Teclis will still be good (as befits his fluff) but he will be priced out of lower points level games.

Just make him 601 points and he is perfectly balanced.

I think you mean 626 points

 Flashman wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 John Rainbow wrote:
I heard rumours that Teclis will still be good (as befits his fluff) but he will be priced out of lower points level games.

Just make him 601 points and he is perfectly balanced.

I think you mean 626 points

Nah, standard size in my meta is 2400.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Remove his ability to ignore the first miscast each turn.

Add that he still casts IF on doubles but has to roll twice on the miscast chart and your opponent gets to choose the result or may add or subtract 1W3 to the miscast result.

You really hate Teclis a lot , You realize there is a item called BOOK OF HOETH which is equally as powerful.

Just some background for Teclis - Most powerful spellcaster alive (Kroak is technically dead)

Teclis defeated Malekith in a wizard duel

Teclis Brought Magic to the old world and helped start the eight colleges of magic for the empire

From the Rumours Teclis isn't changing to much and from what I have read is even getting cheaper, whether or not he will keel IR or not on doubles is still up in the Air.

Also he's not impossible to fight against, Ive seen him popped by cannons are warmachines all too often.



Write a letter if you feel offended so much by Teclis.