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SoloFalcon wrote: Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us.

As an economist and an MBA, I can tell you this line of thinking is silly, for several reasons. The most fundamental being that the Shareholders don't pay GW's bills

One will notice that successful companies showing actual consistent growth generally do not take this view.

Yes, they do bear a responsibility to the shareholder, but the shareholder is also the last guy in line to get paid, and if the organization is not holding itself accountable to the customer, then the customer may not purchase their products, meaning the organization does not get paid and ultimately the shareholder derives no value from their investment (which at this point such investment is not actually an investment in GW since it's going to previous shareholders). The organization exists to make money by selling items of value to the customer, and if that value doesn't exist or is depleted, then that organizations ability to earn is impaired.

GW's actual shareholders are largely irrelevant in terms of their operation of the business as they're hedge funds that just park small portions of their cash in GW as part of a larger portfolio of stocks, save for one, Tom Kirby, who primarily cares about dividend payments and ensures those happens regardless of how the business does by borrowing money to pay them if he has to. The shareholders in this case are largely transient and the one aspect that actually matters to any of them is being ensured, for good or ill, so largely, unless they *really* bottom out, they couldn't care less about what's going on. And it shows

Are they "accountable" to the customer in the same sense that they are to the shareholders? No, there obviously is no chain of command, but if they don't hold themselves accountable to the demands of the consumer base, then in the long term they are in trouble.

I also tend to think that recent policies by GW don't actually a lot to do with the gradual trend here. IMO, they're given some people something to hold onto and wave, but they haven't actually changed many people's opinions.

I was on rec.games.miniatures.warhammer in the mid and late 90s, when prices were better, WD had content, miniatures were metal and not Finecast, GW had bits service, the studio previewed stuff months in advance, and GW only had maybe 5 stores in the entire U.S. and wasn't trying to compete with FLGSs. And that forum had plenty of GW hate.

Ultimately I think when you put GW, the Internet, and gamers into a bottle together and allow some time, a chemical reaction is just going to happen. The particulars aren't really an important piece of the process.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.

Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.

Of course everyone is here voluntarily, but if I was going to find a new hobby, I would rather choose to than feel I was forced to. I'm just glad that there are so many good alternatives these days, if this was 10 years ago we'd be royally fethed.

It's fairly widely accepted that GW does monitor sites like these, so it may not be a total exercise in shouting at a wall, and even if it is, talking about things that upset, annoy or anger you with others of a similar opinion or debating them with those that disagree is healthy and cathartic. Much better than having to seethe in silence or try and explain to friends or family why you're so upset about your toys.

 azreal13 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.

Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.

Of course everyone is here voluntarily, but if I was going to find a new hobby, I would rather choose to than feel I was forced to. I'm just glad that there are so many good alternatives these days, if this was 10 years ago we'd be royally fethed.

It's fairly widely accepted that GW does monitor sites like these, so it may not be a total exercise in shouting at a wall, and even if it is, talking about things that upset, annoy or anger you with others of a similar opinion or debating them with those that disagree is healthy and cathartic. Much better than having to seethe in silence or try and explain to friends or family why you're so upset about your toys.

Yeah while I agree that some of the people replying to the haters can use the odd strawman, I think the point is entirely relevant, a hobby isnt like a drug or medication, its not worth the same amount of vitriol.

At the end of the day, I have been called a "white knight" before by the more vitriolic posters, and I have never bought a finecast model, actively want GW to lose their case against chapterhouse, and think that all kinds of the gak they do is barmy. The internet simply makes absolutely everything a black and white issue, so people have to turn it into "white knight" and "hater" instead of simply being relatively unconcerned because its just a hobby, and making the odd observation.

So ive fallen foul with some of the more militant "haters" on here and argued with them, despite the fact I really am nonchalantly ambivalent to GW and spend feth all on their products. Simply because the are just the other side of the same coin, namely.. people that take their hobby far too fething seriously.

I think if we ban the word "strawman" on dakka, the level of debate would increase massively.

I am constantly pissed off about GW's prices, finecast, over-powered codexes, and the blackshirts' lack of knowledge about the game. But I still get called a GW lover. I think someone somewhere said that I was actually a GW employee

I think one should also note that at least there is discussion. It would be worse if there was no discussion because people just didn't care. No matter how good or bad something is, there will be people who actively bash it. Typically, it depends on that person's hot button issues.

 mattyrm wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.

Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.

Of course everyone is here voluntarily, but if I was going to find a new hobby, I would rather choose to than feel I was forced to. I'm just glad that there are so many good alternatives these days, if this was 10 years ago we'd be royally fethed.

It's fairly widely accepted that GW does monitor sites like these, so it may not be a total exercise in shouting at a wall, and even if it is, talking about things that upset, annoy or anger you with others of a similar opinion or debating them with those that disagree is healthy and cathartic. Much better than having to seethe in silence or try and explain to friends or family why you're so upset about your toys.

Yeah while I agree that some of the people replying to the haters can use the odd strawman, I think the point is entirely relevant, a hobby isnt like a drug or medication, its not worth the same amount of vitriol.

At the end of the day, I have been called a "white knight" before by the more vitriolic posters, and I have never bought a finecast model, actively want GW to lose their case against chapterhouse, and think that all kinds of the gak they do is barmy. The internet simply makes absolutely everything a black and white issue, so people have to turn it into "white knight" and "hater" instead of simply being relatively unconcerned because its just a hobby, and making the odd observation.

So ive fallen foul with some of the more militant "haters" on here and argued with them, despite the fact I really am nonchalantly ambivalent to GW and spend feth all on their products. Simply because the are just the other side of the same coin, namely.. people that take their hobby far too fething seriously.

I find the most frustrating thing is I (rightly or wrongly) genuinely feel I could do better! To anyone who has any experience running a business or in management the urge to grab GW off the current management while shouting 'fething give it here, like this, not like that you fool!' almost unbearable. That in turn is driven by having a long relationship with the IP and a strong desire to see it fulfil it's potential and be so much more than it is.

I probably over prioritise right now, as I use wargaming as a focus, not being able to work through ill health it gives me something to keep my brain active and engaged. But I am aware of this, and I suspect those you've run afoul of lack the necessary perspective to appreciate the fact that they take it too seriously.

 BryllCream wrote:
I think if we ban the word "strawman" on dakka, the level of debate would increase massively.

But then what on earth would your posts contain?

 BryllCream wrote:
I think if we ban the concept of "strawman" on dakka, the level of debate would increase massively.

I am constantly pissed off about GW's prices, finecast, over-powered codexes, and the blackshirts' lack of knowledge about the game. But I still get called a GW lover. I think someone somewhere said that I was actually a GW employee

There, corrected that for you.

It's the law of retail - upset customers will always talk more about their experience than happy customers. The people who look for a forum are typically either A. competitive, tactically minded players looking to help their game or B. Customers upset about something and looking to vent. The former are likely to complain about rules that do not help them win games and balance issues, and the latter are likely to complain about everything - they are already dissatisfied. So what do you expect to see? You can find anti-GW screeds going back years on forums - they were never rare.

GW currently makes a pretty quality product, which makes errors like their balancing of flyers more notable (unbalanced was the rule of the day in some previous editions, and unremarkable). Some of their recent business moves are bone headed, but that is largely irrelevant from player perspective. People just like to gripe. Prices are an issue, but quite possibly an inevitable one when dealing with a niche market like this.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I think if we ban the word "strawman" on dakka, the level of debate would increase massively.

But then what on earth would your posts contain?

The same as they did before, without the need for anyone replying to me to use the word "strawman" when they mean "we're talking about different things".

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 Baldsmug wrote:
I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.

oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.

 Baldsmug wrote:
What if they had stolen online PDFs and a really nice scratch built model that was painted really well. And they presented you with a packet that included any AI rules they might be using as well as a list that was done in excel and included all items of wargear in a well laid out manner to go along with an army that is WYSIWYG. Would that be good enough for you? cause thats how i role

Interesting

Aren't you clever. Great out of context quote about using scratchbuilt models and IA rules from a while back. or are you just trying to attack my character to prove some point? I may have gotten some not so legit PDFs but that doesn't mean i am trying to bring down GW or bear any ill will toward them. Just so ya know, i still have to buy my models, just like everyone else and prefer to get them brand new from my FLGS. And if it makes you feel better I am working on actually purchasing the codex's and IA books which are applicable for my army, but since i don't really play that often so I tend to spend more money on the models. I am not one of those " I hate GW because i read it on the internet so i am only going to buy my models second hand to keep them from getting any of my money" type of people. I am more of a I will buy any models i can get for the money i have to spend and I would really like to read the books first before i spend money that could be used to get more models type of guy. Thanks for checking out my old quotes though, and i hope you took a look at my P&M blog while you were rooting around in there.

Ehhh, if I needed GW to live I would have a problem with a lot of the things they are doing. I would then also agree that a lot of these things (like pricing) is a problem.

However I don't need it to live, it is a luxury and it is a luxury that I would stop playing in a heart beat if I stopped getting my value out of it.

Now if you want to make the comparative value argument my first question is "Well why are you not playing that one?" There are plenty of other factors that are preventing you from doing so, however since those are harder to quantify people complain about the price since it is solid. Value is more than just a dollar figure,

On the codex errors, your right I wish they would have caught some of these things. However over all the product is satisfactory for me. If you want to compare fault free items to not. They will send you a new one almost no questions asked. Do they have their problems? Sure, but I will give them respect for being the only company that I know of that has made it for 30ish years now. They, like magic, have found a way to survive through such a volatile economic period. How many times has something come along that is going to be "the warhammer replacement" yet they are no longer here, and GW still is.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I think if we ban the word "strawman" on dakka, the level of debate would increase massively.

But then what on earth would your posts contain?

The same as they did before, without the need for anyone replying to me to use the word "strawman" when they mean "we're talking about different things".

But what would people do when you do introduce strawman arguments?

I suppose we could all start saying 'red herring'.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.

Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.

Then really the only thing anybody could complain about is the government. Even then, you could say they should move.

"I'm having a really hard time with my wife of 20 years." "What the hell, man, she's not holding a gun to your head. You're there voluntarily!"

If you own a fully painted GW army, you have a large investment of time and money into a hobby, and leaving isn't as easy as, say, finding a new restaruant.

What is wrong with you as a consumer complaining about something you consume, that you find to be sub-standard?

Aren't you the OP, as a consumer of the forum user generated content, complaining about its sub-standard quality?

I advise reading more in forums such as Painting & Modelling, which is a constant source of inspiration.

What's out of context about my quote? You say in the quote that you stole an Imperial Armour pdf to play your scratch built model. Is this inaccurate? Is there more to the story than that summary?

I just find it funny that someone who is telling people they don't NEED to buy GW products, and that they should get over it, is stealing from GW because he doesn't want to buy it

 Vaktathi wrote:

SoloFalcon wrote: Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us.

As an economist and an MBA, I can tell you this line of thinking is silly, for several reasons. The most fundamental being that the Shareholders don't pay GW's bills

Have you actually ever worked in management at a publicly traded company? Those large share holders have a direct line to the front office. They have the ability to kick a CEO out if they don't like them. You ignore them at your own peril. This is from the father of a friend who went to work at a publicly traded bank in Italy. They saw CEOs move in and out fast. You had one quarter to improve things before the share holders called a no confidence vote.

GW being a publicly traded company, they have to put information out that makes it easier to twist the numbers into saying the company is doing good or bad. None of the other companies have to put out those numbers. We don't know CMoN, PP, Warlords, or Corvus Belli's numbers and how much their owners make. Though several people have said that the owners of CMoN have gotten new BMW sports cars in the last year.

Also, people saying how Whineseer is a pro-GW site shows that there is a very negative attitude here. But then again, people like to go to sites that reinforce their views, not question them usually.

silent25 wrote:


Also, people saying how Whineseer is a pro-GW site shows that there is a very negative attitude here. But then again, people like to go to sites that reinforce their views, not question them usually.

EDIT: Nevermind, misread your quote.


Obviously I'm not objective, but probably the best way to put it from a more neutral standpoint is Dakka tends to slant toward negativity vis-a-vie GW (with some obvious exceptions) and Warseer seems to slant to more positivity, with some exceptions. Though I've heard the Warseer mods are more strict, so perhaps that has something to do with it. I don't post on Warseer, merely lurk there infrequently.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.

As with all things, it's shades of grey and not black and white like that. Yes, it's just a hobby, not something I need to live. But it is a hobby of which people invest a lot of time and money. Even if we don't hold shares in the company directly, we are both financially and emotionally invested, which is why people get pissed off when GW does certain things.

Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.

That's a bit of a pessimistic outlook. GW is a publicly traded company, many questions can be answered by analysing their reports, their actions and the wider market (I haven't done much of that as I simply don't have the free time). So it's not just blind complaints, and it's not just talking to brick walls, the more the community gripes about issues, the less GW can sit in an ivory tower and ignore more complaints, less sales and a shrinking market share. Then you have the fact by discussing it you inform others who might read the forums. I'm sure there's many people who wouldn't have known about products outside of GW if it weren't for someone griping "GW did XXXX wrong, look at YYYY company who do it better".

silent25 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

SoloFalcon wrote: Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us.

As an economist and an MBA, I can tell you this line of thinking is silly, for several reasons. The most fundamental being that the Shareholders don't pay GW's bills

Have you actually ever worked in management at a publicly traded company? Those large share holders have a direct line to the front office. They have the ability to kick a CEO out if they don't like them. You ignore them at your own peril.

No it really doesn't work like that in reality in the vast, vast majority of cases.

silent25 wrote:
[But then again, people like to go to sites that reinforce their views, not question them usually.

there's a certain amount of truth to that. I find that both "sides" tend to overly simplify the issue. I know working out some of the prices of basic troops over the past 10 years, I saw a lot of kits stay more or less the same, while quality only goes up. That doesn't help if you have an army that skyrocketed (IG or Eldar most notably), but I was surprised at how little those core units really went up.

i think that there too many instances of both blind defense of GW, and rehashed and derivative negativity. But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
There's been an excess?

I'll be honest, for the time I've been here, GW's pretty much been the wargaming anti-christ for the more experienced posters.

The rising prices, the drunken power-mad statements, the idiotic copyright claims...

People often say that because GW is a company, it can get away with it, but that's not true...

Look at this whining, there's probably a strawman in there somewhere, if you don't like gw, noone is forcing you to buy off them , how about you do something, like make your own game! maybe with rules that work and aren't ambiguous! ....oh....wait...you have

one thing that cracks me up about gw is the fact they say we are a miniature making company that makes a game or 2, I am still waiting for them to make models that don't have a place in thier game system. Is that a GW fallacy on why their rules are so shoddy?

 Baragash wrote:

silent25 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

SoloFalcon wrote: Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us.

As an economist and an MBA, I can tell you this line of thinking is silly, for several reasons. The most fundamental being that the Shareholders don't pay GW's bills

Have you actually ever worked in management at a publicly traded company? Those large share holders have a direct line to the front office. They have the ability to kick a CEO out if they don't like them. You ignore them at your own peril.

No it really doesn't work like that in reality in the vast, vast majority of cases.

I'll trust the word of someone who has experienced this. Plus, if that was the case, shareholder activists like Carl Icahn should be powerless to impact companies? Right?

After reading through various threads, many of which can be described as 'GW bashing' by the OPs standard, I have come to two conclusions.

People complain the most when they see a thing they appreciate/enjoy becoming less and less appreciative of them and rather unejoyable.

And where there is smoke, there is fire. The quantity of one entirely unrelated to the other in either direction, but there it is.

 Polonius wrote:
But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.

You hit the nail on the head, the reason we have so many of the same threads with the same people posting the exact same content is because they feel 'good' like they are being heard, and want to argue. The truth is while all of these topics are all over the internet, in real life, when you go to all these FLGS and events and meet real life people and play with your figures and such, none of this stuff comes up and half of the complaints simply are not even reality... Your GW sucks? Your FLGS sucks? Your can't get your models cheaply? A book I never heard of almost got taken down? None of those issues effect my reality or anyone else in real life.

Dogs barking in the night. I think going to the modeling subforum and posting pictures of my stuff is much better use of Dakka's website as a whole than people belching out the same laundry list of grievances like it matters or anyone cares.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
After reading through various threads, many of which can be described as 'GW bashing' by the OPs standard, I have come to two conclusions.

People complain the most when they see a thing they appreciate/enjoy becoming less and less appreciative of them and rather unejoyable.

And where there is smoke, there is fire. The quantity of one entirely unrelated to the other in either direction, but there it is.

Yeah, I'm sure if I never started GW games "back in the day" and got in to other wargames to begin with or whatever, I wouldn't give 2 hoots about them. It's the hundreds of dollars of miniatures and hundreds of hours of painting them that make me give more than a single hoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.

You hit the nail on the head, the reason we have so many of the same threads with the same people posting the exact same content is because they feel 'good' like they are being heard, and want to argue. The truth is while all of these topics are all over the internet, in real life, when you go to all these FLGS and events and meet real life people and play with your figures and such, none of this stuff comes up and half of the complaints simply are not even reality... Your GW sucks? Your FLGS sucks? Your can't get your models cheaply? A book I never heard of almost got taken down? None of those issues effect my reality or anyone else in real life.

Dogs barking in the night. I think going to the modeling subforum and posting pictures of my stuff is much better use of Dakka's website as a whole than people belching out the same laundry list of grievances like it matters or anyone cares.

Depends where you go, my main FLGS over the years has become increasingly critical of GW, as in, telling me to my face the gripes he has. The second FLGS I go to which has more of a gaming focus across a wider range of games, you'll definitely hear complaints from time to time. Not hour upon hour of arguments with a couple of people ardently defending GW like you see on Dakka, but definitely the same complaints and sometimes even different complaints come up and the same comparisons with other companies that we have here come up in store as well.

The difference is no one jumps up to defend GW if someone is negative and no one jumps up to attack GW if someone says something positive about them, the most you get is a disagreeing "eh" and life goes on. The internet fosters THIS attitude:

http://xkcd.com/386/

nkelsch wrote:
The truth is while all of these topics are all over the internet, in real life, when you go to all these FLGS and events and meet real life people and play with your figures and such, none of this stuff comes up and half of the complaints simply are not even reality... Your GW sucks? Your FLGS sucks? Your can't get your models cheaply? A book I never heard of almost got taken down? None of those issues effect my reality or anyone else in real life.

Pretty much all of the common complaints I see online, I see being brought up in discussions at the events I go to.

People are still enjoying playing 40K, but I've never seen public perception of GW lower than it is now. On the net and in 'real life'.

 insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
The truth is while all of these topics are all over the internet, in real life, when you go to all these FLGS and events and meet real life people and play with your figures and such, none of this stuff comes up and half of the complaints simply are not even reality... Your GW sucks? Your FLGS sucks? Your can't get your models cheaply? A book I never heard of almost got taken down? None of those issues effect my reality or anyone else in real life.

Pretty much all of the common complaints I see online, I see being brought up in discussions at the events I go to.

People are still enjoying playing 40K, but I've never seen public perception of GW lower than it is now. On the net and in 'real life'.

Exactly, like I've said before, our club has gone from exclusively 40k to maybe half the tables on average in the space of a little over a year. Some players have quit, others have added other games. What people say or don't say is irrelevant, it's what people do that counts, and if this is in any way representative, GW are in a lot of bother.

 Polonius wrote:

silent25 wrote:
[But then again, people like to go to sites that reinforce their views, not question them usually.

there's a certain amount of truth to that. I find that both "sides" tend to overly simplify the issue. I know working out some of the prices of basic troops over the past 10 years, I saw a lot of kits stay more or less the same, while quality only goes up. That doesn't help if you have an army that skyrocketed (IG or Eldar most notably), but I was surprised at how little those core units really went up.

i think that there too many instances of both blind defense of GW, and rehashed and derivative negativity. But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.

No I agree that issues should be brought up. I feel though that other companies get far less heat for sometimes just as stupid decisions. I feel the moderators are far better on this site than others and is the main reason I hang out here. Though I do feel they have Pro-PP leaning, but PP hasn't done anything on the bonehead level of what GW has done recently to test it. Curious to see how people on this board would react if PP were to enforce their MINIONS trademark. And yes it is trademarked, there is a little TM next to each faction title.