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 bkiker wrote:

Harriticus wrote:The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:

-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly

I can understand your point. All these changes coming on top of each other has not given the community time to adapt, accept, or figure out how these changes are going affect them. I would guess any company doing these kind of shuffle would meet a push back from their customer base.

I totally expected that sentence to continue with; "But this is great news!!"

I am absolutely not at all amazed about the recent explosion of critical threads.
There have always been threads about imbalances/codex creep/various rules issues, and there have been regular threads about too-high prices at least since the later nineties. There have also always been threads about corporate decisions.

What has changed in the last 2 years is the speed and amount of changes on a corporate level: Price raises on items that should have (better) become cheaper with a switch to plastic, the "Fine"cast debacle, the continuing bullying of independend retailers and other protective measures to increase net profits through prohibitive sales/distribution policies, absence of professional marketing & community involvement combined with various strong ("bullying") actions to protect what GW defines as being their copyright, trademark and profit span, dropping of gaming from stores... It's really a long list in a short time.

So, there are sound reasons to see a lot more of those "anti-GW" threads. I don't participate, but I can understand why they are there. It's not a big internet conspiracy of people who vent unfounded hate.
It's a reaction to real life actions. Just because you don't give a gak about GW's corporate behaviour (I certainly don't) or have no clue what it all means, it does not make them less legitimate.

 Kingsley wrote:


I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.

Be sure to let us know where exactly in Bizzaro-world these forums are. As you'll find pretty much the same underlying opinion of GW in some magnitude or another on any forum you go on, no matter how happy-clappy and hippy-dippy it may seem on the surface.

At least Dakka is honest.

Yeah. I think Warseer will be a more Kingsley-friendly environment. He can join the GW cheer squad there and spare us his wilful blindness.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. I think Warseer will be a more Kingsley-friendly environment. He can join the GW cheer squad there and spare us his wilful blindness.

Or BoLS. Definitely a GW friendly place - I spotted a few ex-dakka white knights with tarnished armour lurking around there.

Its like I always say, everyone in this hobby will eventually hate GW, its not a matter of if, but when. Only the truly ignorant hold out the longest.

 bkiker wrote:

Harriticus wrote:The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:

-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly

I can understand your point. All these changes coming on top of each other has not given the community time to adapt, accept, or figure out how these changes are going affect them. I would guess any company doing these kind of shuffle would meet a push back from their customer base.

Except that there are other issues besides just those issues...
Finecast was released almost 2 full years ago. When they announced it they said,

"we launch the highest quality miniatures the world has ever seen - Citadel Finecast." - Andy Hall
" On the 28th of May we launch Citadel Finecast, miniatures of such exquisite detail that they are the closest representation of the sculptors' original that we have ever been able to make. Until you hold one in your hand and see it for yourself, it's hard to describe just how detailed they are."
"There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world"
Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16700019a (May 23rd, 2011)

Now you're probably saying, "Alf, there's no way Finecast could be anything BUT the best in the world." Well OP, just let me link you to this little gem.

Not to mention my own issues with finecast, a year and a half after it's release... I've seen startups with less issues in their production.

And then there is the changes in white dwarf, sure it's a bigger magazine, but it's still almost half advertisements. I haven't bought one because there's nothing of interest in them. And then let's not forget the issues with a Sisters of Battle 2 issue WD Codex, issues you can't buy, and a pdf of this is still unavailable. Hell they could sell it for 5 bucks through iBooks and make a killing from all of the Sisters players that need a codex.

There are just so many things over the past 2 and a half years that GW has done that just kills any good will they had. I mean this awesome new release schedule has been great for players, yet they ballsed it up with the Tau release (selling out because they didn't make enough).

It's just extremely annoying seeing a game company such as this, which should have NO issues with how they run things, just screwing up left and right...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:


I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.

Be sure to let us know where exactly in Bizzaro-world these forums are. As you'll find pretty much the same underlying opinion of GW in some magnitude or another on any forum you go on, no matter how happy-clappy and hippy-dippy it may seem on the surface.

At least Dakka is honest.

Well, if you really want discussion in a less negative environment, than going elsewhere isn't a bad idea.

Though it reminds me of the guy that keeps getting into bar fights, but never goes to a different place. Maybe the fights are the reason to go?

 Polonius wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:


I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.

Be sure to let us know where exactly in Bizzaro-world these forums are. As you'll find pretty much the same underlying opinion of GW in some magnitude or another on any forum you go on, no matter how happy-clappy and hippy-dippy it may seem on the surface.

At least Dakka is honest.

Well, if you really want discussion in a less negative environment, than going elsewhere isn't a bad idea.

Though it reminds me of the guy that keeps getting into bar fights, but never goes to a different place. Maybe the fights are the reason to go?

I know it's definitely the reason certain people aren't on my ignore list

There are a lot of legitimate grievances, but I still think that the atmosphere is ridiculously negative. "Flyer rules from out-of- print WDs are not available!" "GW is ripping us off with this flyer supplement!" "GW is not updating codices fast enough!" "GW is releasing codices too fast" "Why GW doesn't do FAQs faster?" "GW releases the FAQ right after the codex, this sucks!" Not to mention all the complaints how models are horrible when we see first leaked grainy pictures of them. It is just becoming boy crying wolf. Real issues get buried in all the pointless whining about pretty much everything.

 Crimson wrote:
There are a lot of legitimate grievances, but I still think that the atmosphere is ridiculously negative. "Flyer rules from out-of- print WDs are not available!" "GW is ripping us off with this flyer supplement!" "GW is not updating codices fast enough!" "GW is releasing codices too fast" "Why GW doesn't do FAQs faster?" "GW releases the FAQ right after the codex, this sucks!" Not to mention all the complaints how models are horrible when we see first leaked grainy pictures of them. It is just becoming boy crying wolf. Real issues get buried in all the pointless whining about pretty much everything.

Strange how not a single person complained about those issues in this thread or any of the others that I've read about (except the flyer supplement that was both a large middle finger to FLGS and a rip-off to most customers).

Be careful you don't get dizzy with all that spinning!

 Crimson wrote:
There are a lot of legitimate grievances, but I still think that the atmosphere is ridiculously negative. "Flyer rules from out-of- print WDs are not available!" "GW is ripping us off with this flyer supplement!" "GW is not updating codices fast enough!" "GW is releasing codices too fast" "Why GW doesn't do FAQs faster?" "GW releases the FAQ right after the codex, this sucks!" Not to mention all the complaints how models are horrible when we see first leaked grainy pictures of them. It is just becoming boy crying wolf. Real issues get buried in all the pointless whining about pretty much everything.

The only one of those complaints that seems a bit out of line is "GW is releasing codices too fast" and honestly I have not actually seen that. I have seen (and have myself) questioned what they will do next as that fast release schedule is not inline with their current business model and will lead to dramatic swings in sales if they dont use some other stop gap. That isnt a complaint though, rather an observation for discussion.

Other than that...

Flyer rules unavailable? Significant problem for stores, new gamers, old gamers and tournaments.

Flyer supplement a rip off? The rules were in what...two or three different issues of WD? If I had spent the money on those, I would feel a good bit annoyed that GW released a consolidated book and changed things enough in the book to invalidate the magazines for 'official' use.

Slow codex updates? Long been a problem. Each edition releases new quirks in the rules. Armies that get updated get new kits to take advantage of those quirks. Armies without updates get left behind and are often at a handicap versus an army with a current codex.

Slow FAQs? When a problem is identified in the rules, in the digital age...they should update it the same day. They are not doing revised print editions, or publishing it through a source like WD. There really isnt ny reason not to.

FAQed right after print? A rulebook that you are spending $40-50 for should have been tested and proofread. That isnt really too much to ask for when paying premium prices.

Complaints regarding the models are issues of personal taste. I find a majority of new releases to look ridiculously toy like. Some people like them. I dont see a difference between someone saying that looks bad versus someone saying that looks good. Poke around news releases for other companies and you see the exact same thing. That is why there are hundreds of companies producing miniatures in dozens of styles.

 Harriticus wrote:
The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:

-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly

One at a time:

-they already had an online retail policy. While it makes little sense, it was part of GW's sales contract. However, nothing prevents a store from using a second-party dealer like ACD. And GW did not shut down Miniwargaming, MWG did.
-no sense. you are right
-not a popular license, made no sense again.
-stuff happens. I guess GW was at fault for the shipment of Falcons on the bottom of the Atlantic, too?
-no idea.
-that's what limited editions are. I have yet to hear about Nikon being sued for charging $1000 extra for a commemorative edition camera that already sold for $2500 just to change a logo and the color of the metal.

Have they made some bone-headed decisions? yes. Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us. Ever look at old catalogs? Some of the prices haven't changed much until recently. Couldn't it be possible that they had not adjusted properly for inflation or economic shifts?

There are too many GW bashers out there. If you don't like their policies, either tell them.or stop whining about it. If tou don't want to give them your money, fine, either buy second-hand or find another game. Screaming to the internet forums is like kicking a brick wall, it does nothing.

Screaming to the internet forums is like kicking a brick wall, it does nothing.

Tell that to Kool-Aid man!

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Have they made some bone-headed decisions? yes. Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us. Ever look at old catalogs? Some of the prices haven't changed much until recently. Couldn't it be possible that they had not adjusted properly for inflation or economic shifts?

Ha!

We can't... the Kool-Aid Man charges through, he doesn't kick.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:

-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly

One at a time:

-they already had an online retail policy. While it makes little sense, it was part of GW's sales contract. However, nothing prevents a store from using a second-party dealer like ACD. And GW did not shut down Miniwargaming, MWG did.
-no sense. you are right
-not a popular license, made no sense again.
-stuff happens. I guess GW was at fault for the shipment of Falcons on the bottom of the Atlantic, too?
-no idea.
-that's what limited editions are. I have yet to hear about Nikon being sued for charging $1000 extra for a commemorative edition camera that already sold for $2500 just to change a logo and the color of the metal.

Have they made some bone-headed decisions? yes. Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us. Ever look at old catalogs? Some of the prices haven't changed much until recently. Couldn't it be possible that they had not adjusted properly for inflation or economic shifts?

There are too many GW bashers out there. If you don't like their policies, either tell them.or stop whining about it. If tou don't want to give them your money, fine, either buy second-hand or find another game. Screaming to the internet forums is like kicking a brick wall, it does nothing.

MWG made 80% of their profit from online sales, they were considering closing the physical store, GW solidified that and nuked their webstore.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Compare the quality of GW models to other miniature companies(not just table top wargame miniatures)

You will find that GW's pricing is quite reasonible for the quality you get. YOu may pay up to twice as much for a model with similar detail and size without any of the customization GW offers.

Just something to consider.

I have to disagree with this. Tamiya models in the same scale as GW vehicles are significantly less expensive and are higher in detail and quality. The GW Leman Russ is $49.50 and is an ok model. The Tamiya 1/48 scale Marder tank hunter model has more pieces, higher detail, and working treads/suspension and recoil system on the gun, and it costs $34.00. The most expensive model in Tamiya's 1/48 scale line is $42.00, and the worst Tamiya model is of higher detail and quality than GW vehicle models. Tamiya plastic models had the weld marks molded into tank hulls 25 years ago.

Because people's complaints are intrinsically linked to the frequency and scale of Games Workshop's actions.

When they do more things worthy of complaint, more people complain.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:

-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly

One at a time:

-they already had an online retail policy. While it makes little sense, it was part of GW's sales contract. However, nothing prevents a store from using a second-party dealer like ACD. And GW did not shut down Miniwargaming, MWG did.
-no sense. you are right
-not a popular license, made no sense again.
-stuff happens. I guess GW was at fault for the shipment of Falcons on the bottom of the Atlantic, too?
-no idea.
-that's what limited editions are. I have yet to hear about Nikon being sued for charging $1000 extra for a commemorative edition camera that already sold for $2500 just to change a logo and the color of the metal.

Have they made some bone-headed decisions? yes. Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us. Ever look at old catalogs? Some of the prices haven't changed much until recently. Couldn't it be possible that they had not adjusted properly for inflation or economic shifts?

There are too many GW bashers out there. If you don't like their policies, either tell them.or stop whining about it. If tou don't want to give them your money, fine, either buy second-hand or find another game. Screaming to the internet forums is like kicking a brick wall, it does nothing.

MWG made 80% of their profit from online sales, they were considering closing the physical store, GW solidified that and nuked their webstore.

Sounds like a poor business model. But unless GW directly told MWG to shut down, it was collateral damage. Pick your arguments with more precision.

I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.

oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.

 Baldsmug wrote:
I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.

oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.

Wow, ad hominem and straw man combined. The Hooobbby is strong with this one!

Usually I would make some sort of smarmy reply here, but you've managed to embarrassed yourself enough already...

 Kingsley wrote:


I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW

GW. It was GW.

Baldsmug wrote:I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.

oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.

Cool story.

You do realise it's possible to be critical of something or someone without sounding like you're defending Britney on YouTube?

He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.

Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.

 Baldsmug wrote:
I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.

oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.

 Baldsmug wrote:
What if they had stolen online PDFs and a really nice scratch built model that was painted really well. And they presented you with a packet that included any AI rules they might be using as well as a list that was done in excel and included all items of wargear in a well laid out manner to go along with an army that is WYSIWYG. Would that be good enough for you? cause thats how i role

Interesting

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:


Sounds like a poor business model. But unless GW directly told MWG to shut down, it was collateral damage. Pick your arguments with more precision.

Wasn't arguing, was adding in some factuals.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's not just miniatures gaming that sees this kind of activity, it's everything. The Internet is, after all, a Global Hate Machine.

Mostly this. And Dakka's actually fairly friendly compared to some forums out there.

HOWEVER, in this veteran's opinion, this is the most negative Dakka's been in the Yakface era. And I'm not talking about measured, critical analysis -- some of that does exist here -- but the rise in negative and repetitive content-void posting. I'm not sure what can be done about that without some fairly harsh modding. The old 40K mailing list had a ban on all pricing discussions, for instance. Seems harsh, but then it really did remove a lot of the noise. *shrug*

 Ravenous D wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:


Sounds like a poor business model. But unless GW directly told MWG to shut down, it was collateral damage. Pick your arguments with more precision.

Wasn't arguing, was adding in some factuals.

Ah, gotcha!

I really can't blame people. Just skim over the last few months and you'll realize that GW does not hide their customer-hating attitude - unbelievable price increases, closing gaming possibilities, lower quality miniatures-wise, trying to shut FLGS down or limit them as hard as possible etc.

On the upside, GW has...

...eh...

....yeah.

There's been an excess?

I'll be honest, for the time I've been here, GW's pretty much been the wargaming anti-christ for the more experienced posters.

The rising prices, the drunken power-mad statements, the idiotic copyright claims...

People often say that because GW is a company, it can get away with it, but that's not true...