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Quick question: Playing vs necrons in a 1000 pt game soon and I'm going to run my mephy as a regular librarian. Any suggestions for the best psychic powers loadout in this match up?

It depends more on the rest of your list than on what you're facing, I think. Divination or Shield+something are the two main options, though.

My list is looking like this:

HQ - Libby

Troops-
10 ASM
10 Tacticals
5 DC with PF

Land Raider Crusader (for libby and DC)
Predator w/ AC and LC sponsons

Only other models I have are 5 more ASM and two Sang Priests

I guess you'll want to go for Divination, then. This isn't exactly the kind of list I have any experience, but Prescience on DC is a big game.

I had a good game against Black Templars last weekend. My terminator librarian beat face (for once). The battle opened my eyes to the need for BA to mech up and to take vindicators. I guess AC/LC preds might work. Tactical terminators with CML worked wonders. I like them more than assault terminators now.

I think it's time (for me personally) to write up a BA and IG list that plugs the holes so to say.

Since I don't own vindicators, I will use two demolishes, and some artillery. Mech up my troops in both lists. Throw in a couple drop pods and maybe a vendetta or two, or one vendetta and one stormraven.

Chapter Tactics is somewhat over rated. Choosing to fail a morale test and run from combat can lose you the whole squad.

"A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can
choose to automatically fail any Morale check it is called
upon to take." Pg 51 CSM

Ever heard of "Sweeping Advance" which is basically what is going to happen to you if you choose to run. Of course you do have a slight chance to get a way, but its a rather over-rated ability to say the least.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Chapter Tactics is somewhat over rated. Choosing to fail a morale test and run from combat can lose you the whole squad.

"A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can
choose to automatically fail any Morale check it is called
upon to take." Pg 51 CSM

Ever heard of "Sweeping Advance" which is basically what is going to happen to you if you choose to run. Of course you do have a slight chance to get a way, but its a rather over-rated ability to say the least.

Except they have ATSKNF which means they can never get run down in a sweeping advanve. So if you can leave combat you can get another round of rapid fire shooting. Not that any of this is relevant in this thread as BA don't have combat tactics.

D

Yes, but you get stuck back in hand to hand is what I was meaning, sorry Igot that mixed up with the losing the squad thing. Hangover today.

So regardless, the running away and shooting does not work so well in a lot of cases.

Combat tactics is still more useful than what BA get: Black rage rolls.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Yes, but you get stuck back in hand to hand is what I was meaning, sorry Igot that mixed up with the losing the squad thing. Hangover today.

So regardless, the running away and shooting does not work so well in a lot of cases.

It may not benefit the squad running but still.
An enemy unit that you want to shoot and is currently in CC is one of the most annoying thing there is...

I listed to the most recent Life After The Cover Save episode (podcast) and hey discussed the BA codex. Raised some good points and made me rethink the viability of our codex.

On a side note, even though I own cheesy IG units (vendettas, artillery, etc.) I have the most fun when fielding my BA.

Which episode exactly?

The fact that we have to roll for something we should get stock is a fair point Martel.

BA should be Furious Charge all the time, just as they used to be.

Or counter attack, one of the two.

That's right, we should get FC stock. Its practicaly use less now. I was thinking instead of SangPriests giving FNP & FC they should give out FNP & Hatered. Maybe against chaos marines favored enemy.

At the rate meqs are losing stock, the BA are going to all need rage and FC. I don't know exactly what would be fair; but currently the situation sucks.

I reckon give the BA FC stock, and the Sanguinary priests should give FNP and +1 to initiative.

Just wait till the codexes come out Martel, we will see the other armies whining, if the DA codex is anything to go by.

Maybe. I don't feel the DA codex is that good compared to the Xenos, however.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. I don't feel the DA codex is that good compared to the Xenos, however.

It's not. It's a rehash of what DA are supposed to do, termies, bikes, and a reduced price point for marines and characters.

I Almost feel that the DA codex is a test for future pricing, hence why there is nothing totally overpowered in there. Look at the debacle with their flyers, great model, great idea, bad execution and cost. It should have at least been in line with the storm talon. I would love to buy one and field it because it looks so damn cool, it's just not competative. DA seems more like a fun codex than a tourny winning codex.
The real strength of the DA codex is in the balance you can use in building a decent TAC list. In this respect tho it is still missing certain things : thunder fire cannon or equivilent, true Sternguard with special ammo. There are definatly good priced units in there that although may not stomp face, are heap and useful. Look at the knight terminators, wouldnt you rather just have TH/SS termies.


If the BA dex comes of like this I wouldn't be sad, I wouldn't be happy either. It would a least be an improvement over the current issues of ridiculosely over priced units, with a side helping of nerfed rules.

Well, maybe we should just go back to 2nd/3rd edition where BA/DA codex's were supplements to the SM codex, we got all the standard marine stuff, and then our own toys.

I do find it interesting that they gave the Stormraven to SM/BT but BA still don't have the Stormtalon.

Perhaps they will be doing a BA version, who can say.

I would say that ravenwing knights are a very nasty unit, with those grenade launchers of theirs.

There are quite a few good things in there, of course the flyers were a disappointment for the DA players.

DA don't get Sternguard because they field all their vets as DW Terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to overpriced units, characters certainly, but compared to vanilla our tacticals, scouts, and assault marines all cost the same, and in the case of assaults have more weapons options.

Vanilla vanguard are 125 base and have to pay for jump packs. BA Vanguard are 115 base, and come with free jump packs.

Sternguard are 125 for vanilla and BA

BA devastators are 90 base as are vanilla, but BA weapons are cheaper.

BA Predators are 70 base with marginally more expensive weapons upgrades (except TLLC which is the same) at +5 points for bolter or lascannon sponsons, but BA Predators are fast, so if you are moving them about they have a significant advantage in shooting while moving.

BA Vindicators are 145 as opposed to 115 for the vanilla version, but fast makes them much more likely to drop rounds on people by rushing.

BA Whirlwind is 5 points more expensive

BA Elite Dreadnought Furioso is base 125 and AV 13 on the front, has a meltagun & stormbolter base and twin close combat weapons, and can take a 3rd shooting weapon in the form of the magna grapple +15 and exchange a CC weapon for the frag cannon for free, and upgrade the storm bolter to a heavy flamer for +10 or you can pay 50 points and make it a librarian. It also has BS 4 & WS 6

Vanilla Elite dreadnought Venerable is base 165 points with MM and a dreanought CC weapon and it gets more expensive from there with upgrades. Its also only AV12

Also in the elite slot is the standard Vanila dread at 105 points which is pretty much the same as the BA dreadnought in the heavy support slot.

Ironclad is a good buy at 135 points for vanilla with AV13 f & s, but it has WS4 BS4, I'd much rather have a furioso for the WS.

So, massively overpriced units (aside from our characters) is a bit of a stretch really.

BA/DA 2nd Ed codex was stand alone and called, Angels of death.
Vanguard vets, DO pay for jump packs, 10 pts per.
You left out mentioning DC, SG, which are overpriced when outfitted.

Essentially with the advantages you listed, we might as well be playing Codex:SM but without some of the cooler SM toys (thunder fire cannon). Or it leaves only 1 or 2 borin viable builds, vindicator spam, av 13 spam in general).

Stormraven: overpriced

All HQs: overpriced

ASM: overpriced due to assault nerfs

Sanguinary priest: overpriced due to FC nerf

DC: overpriced/unwieldy

SG: overpriced

Tactical marines: overpriced b/c no combat tactics

Vanguard: horridly overpriced

I'm sure I"m forgetting something, but yeah. Go look at the lists people throw up for the BA. Most of them are using one or more of the overpriced units.

Also, all those fast vehicles you listed as being worth the points, aren't any better than their SM counterparts when taking fire. Except they take fire less well because they cost more per HP. I feel like you are forgetting your opponent gets a turn as well. It's not all, "Oh I zoom up with this fast stuff and rofl stomp people". Players who know what they are looking at will simply abuse our low model count; a problem we really can't fix due to the overcosted nature of our current codex.

Yes, 10 points per jump pack, but still cheaper than C:SM my bad.

Yes Martel, the enemy does get a turn, no kidding.

And no s**t overpriced HQ's, did you not read where I said exactly that.

I still suspect the majority of your problems come from your negative attitude however, if you think you are going to lose, you will.

Once again, can't see why combat tactics is considered to be so great, its not going to achieve much a lot of the time, like hit and run really.

Furthermore, I was comparing like with like for the cost comparison guys, so no point in comparing Sanguinary Guard or DC as they have no direct equivalent.

As for DC, they are very effective if you use them well. Never used SG, the 5 model only limit on squad size is a bit off putting. What exactly makes the DC "unwieldy"? I know they can't score objectives, but they do deny them, which can be very useful. In larger games (2500+) 15 in a LRC is great fun.

As to the high cost when outfitted, I've found that you don't need to give the DC too many toys, if they are with a chaplain of any form and equipped with BP & Chainsword they simply throw so many dice with re-rolls to hit and wound that they mince almost anything that gets in their way. A power weapon or PF/TH is always fun though. As is an infernus pistol or 2. But even plain stock they are still very effective for me. Also using them with bolt guns is fun too. Relentless rapid firing bolt guns.......

And the assault nerfs are not so bad in my opinion, at least they have not caused me any problems so far. Random charge is no big problem, and over-watch is highly over rated most of the time. Sure, losing the +1 to initiative is a bummer, but still, its not so bad.

As to the fast vehicles, sure, if you sit back and shoot the enemy head on, then having fast vehicles is not useful, however if you maneuver for flanking shots on vehicles etc or in the case of vindicators to get close enough to shoot, then it becomes quite useful.

Sure, I'd like to see cheaper units, the 15 points per Jump Pack for the DC is ridiculous, especially when previously it was +50 for the whole unit regardless of size. I don't see the Vanguard as being too overpriced, they can be useful. All the characters, yes far too expensive, though it is fun using Dante's curse on occasion.

Hopefully they will lower the unit prices as they did with DA. But we just have to wait and see.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, model count is a problem for most MEQ as I recall.

Martel732 wrote:
Stormraven: overpriced

Ignoring the vendetta as an aberration, as we know it will be going to 160-180 points next IG codex, what would be a fair price for a stock Storm Raven? It's not going to be cheaper than 150, that's for sure, and with the helldrake at ~175 I don't really see it being any cheaper than that either. It's still a TL assault cannon, multimelta and a pair of S8 AP1 missiles for 2 turns. There's very little in the air that is either tougher or has more firepower....it's the Land Raider of the sky basically. I'll agree that the hurricane bolters are over priced and a stupid option though, and it's kind of a failure as an assault transport, but that can be said of every flying transport except the nightscythe, and it's only a good transport because it ignores all of the penalties that flyer transported troops suffer from.

With them being in the vanilla book at 200 with inferior missiles...I could actually see it go UP in points to 205-210 in our next book.

All HQs: overpriced

Agreed. I expect 20-40 points off of each HQ, and new wargear in the next codex....with the exception of special characters of course, they could go in any direction with GWs track record.

ASM: overpriced due to assault nerfs

ASM will get the option to include a veteran serg or not...so potentially saving 10 points, and will come down in cost 1 point per model, at best. I don't know what they'd have to cost to be "effective" but they won't be cheaper than 17, as that's the cost of Raptors and DA ASM. I could see them still being 18, as ours are at least scoring as well.

Sanguinary priest: overpriced due to FC nerf

I agree that they are slightly over priced. At the moment you are getting a ~18-24 point veteran sergeant and paying 26-32 for it's FnP/FC aura. Wolf guard/veterans/chosen are 18, and a veteran sergeant in a tactical squad with DA pricing being ~24 points. So we start at 18 for the stat line lets say. What is a reasonable price for the FnP/FC bubble? The DA power field bubble is 30 and it grants a 4+ invul, but it's range is half what our sang priests get. I'd say 22-25 isn't really unreasonable for it, so that would put a sang priest at 40-45ish points. So we are saving what, 5-10 points in a perfect world?

DC: overpriced/unwieldy

Honestly, comparing DC to other assault troops out there they are actually a steal. I mean Khorne berzerkers are 19 points and don't have FnP, have 1 less attack and can't have the weapon options. GW sucks at pricing melee troops in 6th edition is the only conclusion I can reach, so I don't expect any favors in regards to DC other then jetpacks dropping down to 5 points per model (which would still be a touch on the expensive side for them IMO). At least they aren't an elite choice, which they very well could have been.

SG: overpriced

Agreed, but they also suffer from being in the crowded elite slot. I'd like to see them moved into a bodyguard capacity for chapter masters. Kind of like how vanilla has honor guard and command squads, Sang guard would be our version of honor guards. So a chapter master would unlock 1 squad free of FoC, and Dante makes them troops again. Comparing them to their nearest 6th edition brothers, which I believe are warp talons. We have a MC power weapon and a 2+ save, and they have a 5+ invul and get to reroll to wound. They are 30 each, we are 40. I think dropping to 35 is likely for sang guard, 32 at the absolute cheapest.

Tactical marines: overpriced b/c no combat tactics

Tacticals aren't overpriced because a lack of combat tactics....even vanilla marines WITH combat tactics suck huge balls at 16 points per model. DA dropped them to 14 each, so that's likely to happen for us as well...even then they would still be really poor IMO. The only time bolter boys aren't laughed off the board is when DA combine them with the banner of devastation or they get a close combat weapon and counter attack ala Grey Hunters. Every other bolter MeQ is a joke really, especially in our helldrake/noise marine/whatever new AP3 ignore cover weapon is hot ATM era, and I have no idea how to fix that.

Vanguard: horridly overpriced

18 points with 5 point jetpacks. Cheaper weapon upgrades. Fixed-ish.

I'm sure I"m forgetting something, but yeah. Go look at the lists people throw up for the BA. Most of them are using one or more of the overpriced units.

98% of the lists you see in the army list forums are newbies posting garbage. You rarely see anything good in there, and if you do, it's a cookie cutter list. Since BA don't have a 6th edition cookie cutter, you therefore do not see any good BA lists.

You have 3 problems that I do not Martel;
First, I have my marines painted with a generic chapter color scheme, so I can codex hop to my hearts content and am not tied to the BA book. It's seriously by far the best decision regarding warhammer I've ever made.
Second, I have the funds to purchase allies/new units to support the changing meta. I'm sitting on $250 dollars in store credit ATM from tournament winnings.
Third, I don't have a vendetta/helldrake happy meta. Those units are out there, and I do have to deal with them, but in the last 6 tournament games I've faced exactly 4 flyers; 2 vendettas (in the same 1500 point list), 1 hell drake and 1 nightscythe.

I'd be interested in your opinions in an "unlimited dollars" situation actually. What allies would you use to try to make a viable BA list? Would you just codex hop elsewhere and try something there, like a DA/Azrael/Guard blob?

I feel like power armor in general is fethed in 6th edition....and I have no idea what to do about it. The only MeQ armies I've seen be viable in 6th is necron/chaos, necron/GK (both light on actual MeQ troops) and that bizarre Khan/storm talon/thunderfire list Tony used in Adepticon.

Yeah, meqs are taking a beating in 6th edition. Taken from that standpoint, BA aren't truly significantly worse than vanilla marines. However, in head to head matchups against meqs, the 6th edition nerfs to the BA come into play.

The DC are unwieldy because all of their transport options have flaws. Serious flaws.

Also, I maintain the Vendetta can not be ignored as an aberration As long as it is legal for play, it is the standard by which fliers need to be judged, so you might have to compete against them directly.

Attitude is not much involved when I play a double or triple helldrake list filled with plague marine with a BA TAC list. I'd say my win rate is pretty good considering. I'm negative because no matter how well I play, or even roll, its a huge uphill battle against many lists. Now most lists. I'm dreading the new Eldar in some ways


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fast vehicles are great. Until they get shot and there are fewer of them to take the hits.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, meqs are taking a beating in 6th edition. Taken from that standpoint, BA aren't truly significantly worse than vanilla marines. However, in head to head matchups against meqs, the 6th edition nerfs to the BA come into play.

Hopefully the new SM codex helps clear things up! My brother is at the point of depression 40k-wise his BA, even with DA allies, are suffering so much. Blood Angels are terribly hard to pull off successfully right now.

*On topic* I think BA are at their best when used for their unique tanks and/or jump pack dudes with power weapons. I don't believe that any other SM codex can bring the fast hitting infantry cleaving capabilities that BA can. So, I find them most effective counter assaulting those units that would charge the DA tacticals - units that can ACTUALLY shoot properly for a fair price with the Salvo banner (especially with LR support IMO - TL SALVO hurricane bolters on a 4+ 14AV LR ftw supporting salvo infantry). In that configuration they are a lower threat priority so its actually possible to get a little mileage out of them.

Attitude is not much involved when I play a double or triple helldrake list filled with plague marine with a BA TAC list. I'd say my win rate is pretty good considering. I'm negative because no matter how well I play, or even roll, its a huge uphill battle against many lists. Now most lists. I'm dreading the new Eldar in some ways

Attitude always matters. It may not win games, but it affects everything inside and outside of the game (:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, meqs are taking a beating in 6th edition. Taken from that standpoint, BA aren't truly significantly worse than vanilla marines. However, in head to head matchups against meqs, the 6th edition nerfs to the BA come into play.

The DC are unwieldy because all of their transport options have flaws. Serious flaws.

Also, I maintain the Vendetta can not be ignored as an aberration As long as it is legal for play, it is the standard by which fliers need to be judged, so you might have to compete against them directly.

Attitude is not much involved when I play a double or triple helldrake list filled with plague marine with a BA TAC list. I'd say my win rate is pretty good considering. I'm negative because no matter how well I play, or even roll, its a huge uphill battle against many lists. Now most lists. I'm dreading the new Eldar in some ways


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fast vehicles are great. Until they get shot and there are fewer of them to take the hits.

I know the vendetta is here, now, and it's the golden standard measuring stick by which all other flyers are measured, but we both know that it's not going to last. I've strongly considered getting 20-40 guardsmen, and a few other IG toys and a vendetta or two, but it's a bad longer term investment IMO, as the vendetta is due a for big nerf next book.

What is the best MeQ army these days in your opinion then? I know you think BT and BA are bottom tier, and you just mentioned vanilla being hardly better. How do you think Chaos stacks up? Or a legion list? Again, if you had 5000+ points of non-chapter specific marines what book would you be using to be competitive?

I was really looking into running 3 vanguard units.. All with jump packs of course for heroic intervention. No upgrades besides possibly adding a squad member or two to ensure they don't get fried by over watch. A part of me sees this working really well as I can place them strategically and Tie up enemy units with heavy fire power for the rest of my squads jumping down. To take a little bit less of a first turn arrival beating for the basic assault oriented troops.
This sounds really nice in my head and I hope would work but i have a feeling it won't work out as well in actual game play due to reserve rules and other thins not to mention it's 495 points for all 3 squads.

Does anyone have anything to say about that I'm looking for some blood angel veterans to put in a word or two as I am struggling to make a decent list with these guys. I can come up with a few reasons why it's a bad idea but I'm looking for other opinions? Thanks

DA at 1999k points:
Samael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Command Squad with Salvo Banner + natharium
Ravenwing Bike Squad (6) x2
Landspeeder (12)
Darkshroud Landspeeder (1)
Landspeeder Vengence (3)

and some weapon upgrades.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, meqs are taking a beating in 6th edition. Taken from that standpoint, BA aren't truly significantly worse than vanilla marines. However, in head to head matchups against meqs, the 6th edition nerfs to the BA come into play.

The DC are unwieldy because all of their transport options have flaws. Serious flaws.

Also, I maintain the Vendetta can not be ignored as an aberration As long as it is legal for play, it is the standard by which fliers need to be judged, so you might have to compete against them directly.

Attitude is not much involved when I play a double or triple helldrake list filled with plague marine with a BA TAC list. I'd say my win rate is pretty good considering. I'm negative because no matter how well I play, or even roll, its a huge uphill battle against many lists. Now most lists. I'm dreading the new Eldar in some ways


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fast vehicles are great. Until they get shot and there are fewer of them to take the hits.

I know the vendetta is here, now, and it's the golden standard measuring stick by which all other flyers are measured, but we both know that it's not going to last. I've strongly considered getting 20-40 guardsmen, and a few other IG toys and a vendetta or two, but it's a bad longer term investment IMO, as the vendetta is due a for big nerf next book.

What is the best MeQ army these days in your opinion then? I know you think BT and BA are bottom tier, and you just mentioned vanilla being hardly better. How do you think Chaos stacks up? Or a legion list? Again, if you had 5000+ points of non-chapter specific marines what book would you be using to be competitive?

Well, GW already passed on upping the points on the Vendetta once. I myself will get a little money over the summer, but I'm holding off on allies until the C:SM codex and IG codices drop. I would hope that the Vendetta gets the nerf stick, but who knows? 6th edition brought us the helldrake, so who knows?

Well, my opinion is heavily influenced by those who attend tournaments, because I do not. For my entertainment/education I listen to 40K podcasts about the tournament scene. It seems that GK/Necron, GK, SW/IG, and DA/IG can all be considered competitive. The solo GK seems to be arguable, and I simply don't have the tournament experience to argue. From my own experience, I think the BA stack up against solo GK better than SW/IG tag team. The combination of Vendetta/Grey Hunter has tabled me three times now. The BA just don't have the bodies or firepower to handle that combination.

Chaos seems to be a special case. The most popular opinion seems to be that CSM are themselves middling, but the helldrake is so damn good that they are a competitive list. CSM seems to have my BA beat coming and going as well. The Stormraven(s) can never seem to clear out the helldrakes fast enough to save my troops from being crippled. Yeah, we get FNP, but there is still the CSM themselves to deal with. Having 2/3 of your squad flamed vs the whole squad flamed is functionally identical in most cases. To top it off, ASM suck against plague marines and any CSM that happen to have init 5. Straight up suck; its embarrassing.

If this were a computer game, and not a model game, I'd first try to avoid chapters I hate like the Space Wolves and roll out the vanilla marines first. With access to the Stormtalon, I feel like the vanilla marines can more efficiently deal with helldrakes. Maybe not, though. Most people claim the Stormraven is better than the Stormtalon, but I'm not sure its more point efficient. But I don't to find out because I'm BA. However, that being said, from a competitive standpoint the difference between pure BA and pure C:SM would probably be only detectable after a large set of games.

I agree that GW has slowly made life harder for meqs and now the reality has set in completely now that two major Xeno lists have had their 6th edition codices drop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@SMMSjosh14

There is a lot of controversy about what to do with BA in 6th edition. There are no real spammable units in the codex (some claim ASM, I'm not sold) so it's not like making a SW list.

Here are lists that seem to work approximately equally well for me:

BA mech with a single divination buffed ASM squad with all ICs in it to keep CC away from the mech. Works okay until another list outshoots you. Looking at you, Tau.......

BA jumper/drop pod combo list. Works well against lists vulnerable to fragnought/sternguard alpha strike. Space Wolves just think we're being cute before they execute us with this build.

I have proxied "Red Tide" a couple times (50+ ASM). Not only is this boring as hell to play, MCs and Vindicators crush you. But there are some lists it will overwhelm. I don't like this list, but it probably counters enough stuff to go on the list.

BA mech with DC quasi-deathstar in a LRC. If your opponent has some really expensive squad your DC can beat up, you're in business. If they are playing MSU shoot 'em up or something else that the DC can't handle, you die like slime.

Every BA build suffers from Vendetta/Helldrake balance. If you bring Stormravens to defend against the helldrakes, Vendetta tear you a new one before you even realized what happened. The Stormraven is just too expensive and fragile vs skyfire lascannons.

Dang thanks man, so you don't feel there is a balanced list that can at least have a decent shot at victory against most enemies without using allies?