Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 dakkajet wrote:
People watch the movie, at the start of the movie they have a clip about the minitures. Then people might join the hobby.

sop telling me how they could have sold the hobbit...Seriously an add before the movie would have drowned GW with cash.Also:How in gorks name could you complain about 40ks popularity?Play the LOTR sbg THEN talk to me about popularity.

First, pricing. Don't get me wrong, I still buy what I can afford. I'm just pointing out that if they were to lower their prices, they would actually make more money and turn a higher profit. This is because if they were to lower the prices by even half (which would still give them a huge profit even with their current sales), they would sell 6 or more times as much product. You don't have to be Einstein to see that this would net them MUCH more than they are making now and would greatly expand their product in the "gamer" community and make parents and grandparant much more likely to open their pocketbooks and wallets and get more young players into the game.

Instead of only selling to indys, sell product to places like toys are us, book stores and such. I remember Waldenbooks carrying it and it selling. This would make them more visible and more easily bought (again, think parents and grandparants)

Advertisement. I'm not talking tv ads and such. I'm talking about the more subtle stuff. Remember when the Twilight Zone came out again a few years ago hosted by Forest Whittacre? There was an episode where a kid was painting models and one came to life. They made a fake character up and used generic models. Had they used GW models and a warhammer fantasy character instead, it would not have made a bit of difference in the episode but I BET there woulda been a LOT of people who either woulda recognized it from playing or later, recognized the models and logo from the tv show and been more likely to buy product. By making themselves more visible in things like that or in movies, they could get a lot of advertisement.

Speaking of movies. We all know that the fluff has a buttload of possibilities. Yes, I was a sucker who bought the sad space marine movie they put out and was disappointed. By having their writers come up with good screenplays, they could have a shot of having a REAL movie made (I would stick with a guard war movie or even better yet, an inquisition movie and stay away from space marines as they are too one dimensional and the size difference would make actors hard to find and special effects more expensive). THAT would greatly boost sales. Especially if combined with lower prices.

Oh come now, doing a 40k movie (a real one, not Ultramarines) wouldn't be that hard to do. With all the great scripts that came out of the games, a movie is just a step up.

How do you do it? Obviously you take it from the Imperiums side, because they are the "would-be good guys." But what position? A Commisar? A Terran Lord? A Space Marine?

How about all of the above? Or how about we just start with the Horus Heresy?

The point here is, you don't have to make the movie all about how good the Space Marines are. In fact, you make the whole movie about how good the Imperium ISN'T and how the viewer is having to come to that conclusion by the end of the movie after, lets say in the example of We Are One from Treacheries of the Space Marines, you have an Alpha Legion Space Marine that usurps the Inquisitor being followed the whole time, which leads to the destruction of an entire Imperial Guard Regiment.

It can be done, if only we were to let the reigns go a bit and let the setting be what it is: Good guys getting their nuts stomped on by Chaos Space Marines, who are feilding Xeno's to their fight, which in turn brings the other "good guy races."

It is SOOOOO DO-ABLE it is driving me insane!

And where do you go after the first movie? SOOO MANY PLACES.

In fact, there should be more movies completely disjointed than anything else. I don't understand why this isn't happening. @.@

If a movie isn't possible there is something called adds on tv. An add showing of the hobby and letting you know we're too find your local gw. People see the add go too gw and some of them will start the hobby.

 ansacs wrote:
You have a very basic misunderstanding of poker and your idea that a miniatures game could ever become as cheap as a deck of cards defies physics. If you want to compare warhammer to a more popular game then it would have to be MtG or video games.
1) Poker has been mainstream for at least two hundred years in the USA, you can see posters for poker tournaments and services in saloons related to poker all through the 1800's.
2) No matter how you do it you can never make a 3D figurine for less than you can make a 2D representation. If GW actually made figurines for the price of a pack of cards they would have to be green army men level of quality. At which point they will loose any customer base they had and will not be able to compete with Hasbro who has the money to crush them like insects.

Now if we want to discuss how GW could improve their popularity and possibly get to video game popularity then some of the ideas mentioned would help greatly.
1) Tighten up the rules so they are more streamlined and error free.
2) Create a cheaper starter level. Just as they have forgeworld they should release the cheapie mono pose plastic marines so new players can have a cheap way to get in.
3) Think about shifting the money making from the books to the figurines. If you look it up you will see that sales of PS2 consoles were not a money maker for sony. Instead they made the money off of game sales and developer packages/rights. GW could think of a similar approach where the basic rules and absolute minimum entry is cheap and the upgrades make up the profit.
4) Advertise more. Honestly the best advertisement GW ever did was the DoW video game series. That thing probably moved more product than any other single decision GW has made. They really should encourage more of this.
5) Effort level is a huge detriment to the "mainstream" popularity of this hobby. This unfortunately is probably not something that can be completely overcome without destroying the hobby. Perhaps if they provide their minimum entry in an optional pre machined painted version (can look pretty good if we are talking SM or orks) this would give people a way to get started and not have grey figures.

The interesting thing is GW has already taken a step in the right direction with their faster release schedule. As long as they don't change armies mid edition and stay with their current edition change time line then this could be a positive change. They just need to get a better at play testing and FAQ publishing.

Excellent post. I would like to add that poker is also popular because of the gambling aspect. Gambling is addicting and people get addicted to gambling. Unless we want to add a gambling aspect to 40K we will never get that addictive draw (which I think is a good thing).

Second I would like to add GW needs to have more support to retailers.
1)Send prizes to retailers for game support. ie the store holds an event/tournament in store and people who show up get something for showing up and the winner gets a prize. Of course the store can add onto the prize with their own incentives. But rather than just host tournaments if you show up to play 40K on game night and get you get a mini, t-shirt, poster etc. it might make more people show up. If GW sells one box set off the price of a couple dozen posters I am sure they would break even.

2) Help and educate retailers on how to draw people into the program. I have been to too many hobby stores with owners who have no idea how to sell or promote a product.

How would I get WH40K rivaling Star Trek Wars?

1: More computer games. Screw going console. It won't play to your strengths. You need tactics games like Dawn of War (1st incarnation, not DoW2. DoW2 was a learning experience of what not to do). Also, an MMORPG for WH40K would also carry the franchise far and threaten other successful series like WoW, etc.

2: TV shows. Or even just official online shorts. Like how they do their RP's or for example the on-going campaigns (like Cadia?) except animate them for fans that can't buy ever piece of fluff and book out there. Even just animating a few key things like Draigo getting thrown into the Warp or Abbadon claiming Drach'nyen at the base of the Tower of Silence. Animation will carry this franchise far.

3: MOVIE. MOVIE. OMG. MOVIE. With as visual and ADD/ADHD ridden as people are these days, a movie is the way to go. Which brings me to point 4

4: Unless you mainstream the models and make them cheaper, the table top game isn't going to catch on in a big way for many many reasons. I am a die-hard fan, but I'm struggling to pay the table top because I can't afford $50 books and $100 models, on top of expenses like paint, glue, etc. So pushing the tabletop isn't going to help spread the word a whole lot. In fact, I didn't know there was a table top until after I was well into and through the DoW series. That's just how the console generations are. They like to see things move, not sit around and do the math.

5: Promotion. BIG PROMOTION. I want to see a squad of Space Marines in full armor during a parade. I want a Librarian at the mall handing out fliers to Games Workshop. I want to see 40K Angry Birds/etc in the same or greater quantities/consistencies as crap like Star Wars and Star Trek. Until that level of promotion can be reached, I feel like people are just going to be spinning their wheels. Best promoter for kids? Toys! Action figures! I know this seems redundant with the way things are set up now, but my 3 year old is in love with my Chaos Army, if only it weren't so frail and didn't fall apart, maybe moved a bit more, etc. So making these guys more like G.I. Joe and less like Golden Daemon Contests would take the franchise far.

As a start.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Also, an MMORPG for WH40K would also carry the franchise far and threaten other successful series like WoW, etc.

Just no. WoW dominates that industry already, the last thing we need is another WoW clone that is forgotten alongside all the other failed WoW clones.

2: TV shows. Or even just official online shorts. Like how they do their RP's or for example the on-going campaigns (like Cadia?) except animate them for fans that can't buy ever piece of fluff and book out there. Even just animating a few key things like Draigo getting thrown into the Warp or Abbadon claiming Drach'nyen at the base of the Tower of Silence. Animation will carry this franchise far.

I think you're missing the point a bit. Giving an animated show to the fans doesn't help an IP's popularity since those people are already your customers. Nor will a bunch of "awesome" scenes matter to anyone who isn't a fan already.

3: MOVIE. MOVIE. OMG. MOVIE. With as visual and ADD/ADHD ridden as people are these days, a movie is the way to go. Which brings me to point 4

As mentioned before, a 40k movie is not really a good investment for anyone. It would be hard to make anything beyond a mindless action movie, and mindless action movies don't tend to make any long-term impact. Plus, 40k's shameless ripping off of everything else in the genre means that a movie studio has little reason to deal with the baggage of the 40k license. Anyone who thinks that a movie in the 40k sub-genre would be successful can just rip off the same ideas and make a movie without all that baggage.

4: Unless you mainstream the models and make them cheaper, the table top game isn't going to catch on in a big way for many many reasons. I am a die-hard fan, but I'm struggling to pay the table top because I can't afford $50 books and $100 models, on top of expenses like paint, glue, etc. So pushing the tabletop isn't going to help spread the word a whole lot. In fact, I didn't know there was a table top until after I was well into and through the DoW series. That's just how the console generations are. They like to see things move, not sit around and do the math.

Just be careful what you wish for. GW has very small profit margins right now (mostly thanks to their own incompetence), cutting prices would require cutting quality at the same time and throwing away one of the few advantages GW has over its competition. You aren't going to see a meaningful price cut that doesn't sacrifice quality until GW dies and the IP goes to a better company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deschain wrote:
As for 40k ripping of everything, I had no idea The Lord of the Rings was set in space?

Did those orcs (who have more in common with goblins) use guns and scrapped together machinery too?

You're missing the point. Yes, 40k's Tolkien ripoffs have some superficial differences from the usual fantasy cliches, but they're superficial differences. Orks don't suddenly function differently in the story just because you give them guns (along with everyone else in the setting). You're still telling the same story as you would be in the fantasy setting, except with different visual elements.

Game of Thrones pretty much rips off British and Eastern-Europe mythology, the major plot line is pretty much the Battle of Hastings. But this was considered original and creative, the "American Tolkein", you know why? Because it found it's niche (focus on memorable characters and the relationships/politics between them) just like Warhammer 40k.

The problem with that is that 40k's characters, as a whole, aren't very memorable. You've got an endless series of "awesome chapter master X who killed A, B, C, D and saved planets blah, blah and blah" characters who exist for the sole purpose of letting the player project their own characteristics onto the leader of their army. Likewise, you don't really have very much interaction between them, just a list of battles to set up a tabletop scenario. That's fine for a tabletop game or a mindless action movie, but it's not going to make much else.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, not everything has to revolutionize a genre just to be original or creative. It just has to do something different (hence the definition of those two words)....

But the claim was that 40k could make the kind of genre-defining movie that brings the IP to the level of mass appeal of something like Star Wars or LOTR. I'm sure that a 40k movie, done right, would have a good chance of making a profit, but that's not going to give you the next Star Wars.

And are you saying that the history of the Chaos, Humans, Eldar or a factions like the Dark Angels or Dark Eldar don't have depth and multiple layers? Some of the newer factions don't, but the more established ones absolutely do.

They have multiple layers, but it's multiple bland layers. Yes, there's a detailed listing of all the battles they've fought, but "some of our guys were traitors and now we hunt them down" is far from original.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Deschain wrote:
Game of Thrones pretty much rips off British and Eastern-Europe mythology, the major plot line is pretty much the Battle of Hastings. But this was considered original and creative, the "American Tolkein", you know why? Because it found it's niche (focus on memorable characters and the relationships/politics between them) just like Warhammer 40k.

The problem with that is that 40k's characters, as a whole, aren't very memorable. You've got an endless series of "awesome chapter master X who killed A, B, C, D and saved planets blah, blah and blah" characters who exist for the sole purpose of letting the player project their own characteristics onto the leader of their army. Likewise, you don't really have very much interaction between them, just a list of battles to set up a tabletop scenario. That's fine for a tabletop game or a mindless action movie, but it's not going to make much else.

Peregrine hit the nail on the head there.

Fun exercise for anyone trying to argue that the characters of 40k are memorable, or even well thought out: Name 3 personal details about your 3 favourite in game (must have a model/rules) characters. Not who they fought, where they fought or who they hate, actual personal details. Does Yarrick have any hobbies? Did Eldrad ever love anyone? We really know all about these characters once you remove their career from the equation.

We wrote:
Excellent post. I would like to add that poker is also popular because of the gambling aspect. Gambling is addicting and people get addicted to gambling. Unless we want to add a gambling aspect to 40K we will never get that addictive draw (which I think is a good thing).

You've obviously not seen the "Paint it all before you buy more" thread which very CLEARLY shows the addictive nature of buying 40k miniatures and building new armies...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Also, an MMORPG for WH40K would also carry the franchise far and threaten other successful series like WoW, etc.

You mean the same way the WFB MMORPG didn't carry the franchise or threaten other successful series like WoW? These games have a limtied audience to begin with and an MMO will appeal to those who *also* like playing RPGS, but not every player of 40k will jump in. Also there will be some players from the MMO side who will jump in because the world looks interesting, but only some of them may make the shift to the actual table top game because an RPG *based* on 40k is not even remotely close to the same experience as a game of 40k. Most of the focused MMO players, though, are not going to become hard core 40k tabletop players, or even casual players. So an MMO will either live or die on its own merits, and will have limited impact on the 40k table top game. I enjoy playing Dark Heresy from time to time. It is a decent game and can be great fun, but it is closer to what you could expect from 40k themed MMO.

Skriker

I think a larger point may have gone unnoticed here. I'm talking about how to spread the franchise on as natural an expansion course as possible. And when you think about it, isn't everything a rip of something else? Isn't that what inspiration is? There is enough differences in the 40k universe to still make it unique to itself, and the best in its class. We've got tons of midevial examples, and honestly I consider WH40K to be more successful than WHFB. Maybe that's just my personal ignorance, but then again I started playing Dawn of War and moved to the Table Top.

So you see, I'm an example of the market they could/should ply too. I know this is about how to make the table top stronger, but it's specialized enough that it'll never have as large a player base as the more easily accessible games.

Honestly, if I never heard of DoW, I would never have heard of the tabletop. My brother is the same way, and so are a couple friends of ours. Many of them would play the table top but it's too expensive and they don't have the time. They also like the lore, but they want to see it so they troll youtube for videos, as do I.

And how would this not help the franchise as a whole?

GW aside because, again, newbie and all that. The computer game I was in for ever and still play more frequently than my CSM army, to date.


Also, I think it was this thread that was suggesting some of the characters are not memorable? Chaos as lots of memorable characters. lol. Ahriman, for example, has a brother Ormuzhg* (spell chk?), carries the souls of his entire legion with him, save a few powerful psychers saved from the Rubric, and his Father seems likely to have outcasted his favored son in order to come back and kill him later and take his rightful place on the throne of Tzeentch. :O Heavy stuff.

Or how about in the heresy when the rememberencers of the Emperors Children come under attack and Serena D'Angelus starts raping and murdering men so she can use their guts and excrement to paint with? That's not memorable enough? There may not be one central character to draw upon at all times, but there are enough to make an impact that they change everything for later characters. A perfect example of this, I feel is Ignace Karkasy. A lowly remembrancer with a speech problem and drinking impediment (mutually afflicting) who is written down in the record books after being killed by Horus for speaking the Truth in the face of a Heresy none could appreciate at that time. Hell, if we're trying to figure out what to produce in terms of a show or movie, the Horus Heresy would be a great start. At least there the Imperium still looks like good guys that "normal" people can relate too.

GW is a Model Producer First
A Game Producer Second.

Being anti-GW is not being a troll. It's being rational. Their rules suck.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
A proofread, playtested rule set.

Balanced factions, both internally and externally.

This. This alone would make 40k's popularity jump. I'd bet it would double just from the people who quit to go play other games coming back.

Completely agree with what these two said. Not only would it make both competitive and casual players happy, but would likely bring lots of people back. I also agree with Peregrine's point (I think it was him) that unfortunately it looks like we will have to wait for GW to go under and someone to hopefully want to buy the IP and make a decent game of it. Don't hold your breath though.

There are many things that might be done to boost 40k popularity
1: Video game franchises, not just dawn of war, look at the various Star Wars video game franchises that cover quite a bit
2: make a series, honestly I think the best approach would be to make the Eisenhorn series into an anime, I know to many this sounds like a complete turn off, but within an anime crowd you have more 'nerds' and essentially young adults who odds are do not care so much about social image.
3: Reduce prices or....HAVE SALES, this I think would get more people into playing 40k than even dawn of war did, telling a friend "Hey man, I know you like daemons but the price sucks, well around christmas they have a 20% off sale. Or once a month have an army from both fantasy and 40k on sale (lets say november is blood angels month, where blood angels are 10% off, and same thing for skaven.) I think this would honestly drive up sales to the point of stocks going even higher for GW.
4: Advertise, GW really needs to suck it up and get in bed with Marvel, or DC, or WoTC and pay to have ads thrown in comics/magazines
5: Better incentives to get FLGS' to carry their product, better prices, whatever it takes to get more small business' to carry their product: More FLGS' carry your product, the more exposure you recieve, the more exposure you recieve the more people are likely to buy your product.
6: While we all know they are not the best miniatures in the market, GW believes it, if GW started really pushing this angle/delusion they may convince more people to buy their models instead of resorting to a competitor
7: slow down codex creep, without codex creep much of the game would become stagnant, however the rapid codex creep hurts many armies and make many players either stop or pause their purchases, and more importantly their playing hence killing GW exposure.

EDIT:
8:Focus on their FFG stuff, right now that is gaining popularity due to the fact that there are relatively few fun scifi TT RPGs, if they can corner the market on Scifi tabletop RPGs it would go a long way for them, look how long WoTC had the generic fantasy RPG sector cornered.

It's not codex "creep" as much as codices being randomly assigned awesomeness, and others being assigned "meh". But still, the balance just isn't there.

:Focus on their FFG stuff, right now that is gaining popularity due to the fact that there are relatively few fun scifi TT RPGs, if they can corner the market on Scifi tabletop RPGs it would go a long way for them, look how long WoTC had the generic fantasy RPG sector cornered.

GW doesn't own FFG, and WotC has had the fantasy RPG market cornered only since they bought TSR, which was.... less than 20 years ago. 15 years? Something like that. Dungeons & Dragons, the game that has cornered the fantasy RPG market, has been around since the 70s.

 Psienesis wrote:

:Focus on their FFG stuff, right now that is gaining popularity due to the fact that there are relatively few fun scifi TT RPGs, if they can corner the market on Scifi tabletop RPGs it would go a long way for them, look how long WoTC had the generic fantasy RPG sector cornered.

GW doesn't own FFG, and WotC has had the fantasy RPG market cornered only since they bought TSR, which was.... less than 20 years ago. 15 years? Something like that. Dungeons & Dragons, the game that has cornered the fantasy RPG market, has been around since the 70s.

Indeed, TSR sold because they were on the verge of bankruptcy, so WotC took a failing business model and made it succeed quite well, and as for ffg I was meaning more pressure and support from GW to pimp out the Dark Heresy system

Inspired by the OPs topic of this thread we discussed this on the latest episode of our Podcast.

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=3215

Glad to see some good points coming up in this thread beyond "make better rules" which is clearly not the answer here.

Way too much would have to be done that GW will never do.

1) Actively balance the game. This means new edition, new race rules within a couple months (of a new edition not every few months lol). None of thise 4-6yr old codex that is barely playable in new rules bullcrap. Also means FAQing things that alter stat lines or points in case a model is proven too strong in the general meta, or utterly worthless.

2) Advertise. Ever seen an advertisement for 40k? or any tabletop? i havent. the entire game style is underground and you never, ever get wiff of it without either stumbling into a gamestore or knowing someone that plays it.

3) Make the Xenos actually have even footing with marines. All the xenos are specified armies that excel in one strat and are decent in another, sucky in a third. Marines can do all strats if you know what youre doing.

4) Price cuts. These models dont cost anywhere near as much as they sell in order to make, its almost 50% bloated just because its GW models not because of cost. The insane costs scare away so many new players its not even funny.

5) Proofread the damn rules and actively hunt gaping holes. Obviously some will skip through, but theres some pretty glaring holes that have to be house ruled because they either make 0 sense or are completely stupid RAW and ruin the game if played that way. Fortifications for one, occupying a building for another.

Finally, 6) Stop being a greedy as feth company with 100000 lawyers ready to sue anyones ass if they even think about using 40k in any way shape or form to make money without their permission. Reselling models/rules is illegal yeah, but noone is going to host a TV-based tournament since something that big will definitely get GW's lawyer attention. They would either deny it or put slowed rules if you asked them.

Psienesis wrote:TV can be done fairly cheaply.

I don't think you've really kept up with the evolution of TV then.

Some TV can be done cheaply. But if you want a special-effects laden universe like 40K, it's going to have a huge price tag, or it's going to look like some crappy second rate basic channel show. The BBC and HBO put up approximate one hundred million dollars to make Season 1 of Rome. Season 2 of Game of Thrones was around seventy million. Walking Dead and Breaking Bad were around three million per episode, and those aren't shows that needed tremendously extensive visual effects.

If you look at one of the best written science fiction series ever made, Farscape, it was eventually done in by its 1.5 million dollars per episode price tag. And that was in the late 90s. A show like that with modern effects would easily run twice that these days.



In reality, a film isn't going to be nearly as hard to produce effectively as people make it out to. There's no need to explain everything about the background. The audience needs to know who the protagonists are, and who the film's antagonists are. That's it. They're not going to recap the whole of 40K. Say they make it Imperium vs some nasty Chaosy guys. In terms of what the audience needs to understand, the Horus Heresy can be boiled down to like four or five lines, lol. "In the dark and distant past, the legions of the Spess Mahreens, led by the immortal Emperor, succeeded in conquering nearly the whole of the known galaxy, crushing untold numbers of alien civilizations beneath their armored boots. But Horus, one of the Emprah's most trusted sons turned against his father, and corrupted nearly half the Imperium. After a short but brutal civil war, the tattered remnants of the traitors fled deep into Eye of Terror, a hellish area of space trapped between reality and the corrupted alternate dimension known as The Warp. And there, driven mad by cackling daemonic entities, they have remained for ten thousand years, plotting their revenge." Boom. 40K in a nutshell. This gets read by some kind of voice-over guy, and they show a montage of battles, then some angry, twisted Chaos Marine being all angry and ragey at the sky. Fade out, on with the movie. Audience has all it really needs to know. There's no need to explain the Eldar if they aren't going to be in the film. Heck, there's no need to even explain the Chaos gods.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Way too much would have to be done that GW will never do.

1) Actively balance the game. This means new edition, new race rules within a couple months (of a new edition not every few months lol). None of thise 4-6yr old codex that is barely playable in new rules bullcrap. Also means FAQing things that alter stat lines or points in case a model is proven too strong in the general meta, or utterly worthless.

2) Advertise. Ever seen an advertisement for 40k? or any tabletop? i havent. the entire game style is underground and you never, ever get wiff of it without either stumbling into a gamestore or knowing someone that plays it.

3) Make the Xenos actually have even footing with marines. All the xenos are specified armies that excel in one strat and are decent in another, sucky in a third. Marines can do all strats if you know what youre doing.

4) Price cuts. These models dont cost anywhere near as much as they sell in order to make, its almost 50% bloated just because its GW models not because of cost. The insane costs scare away so many new players its not even funny.

5) Proofread the damn rules and actively hunt gaping holes. Obviously some will skip through, but theres some pretty glaring holes that have to be house ruled because they either make 0 sense or are completely stupid RAW and ruin the game if played that way. Fortifications for one, occupying a building for another.

Finally, 6) Stop being a greedy as feth company with 100000 lawyers ready to sue anyones ass if they even think about using 40k in any way shape or form to make money without their permission. Reselling models/rules is illegal yeah, but noone is going to host a TV-based tournament since something that big will definitely get GW's lawyer attention. They would either deny it or put slowed rules if you asked them.

None of this - except for perhaps #2 (and even then it will only remotely help) will do much to make 40k more popular to the size and scope of what the OP has stated. (Star Wars, Marvel, etc.) You need to think larger than the game or its component parts. You need to think of the IP in it's entirety. Meaning outside of the game. Film and Television are the only things at this point which will actively launch it to that higher stratosphere. (Potentially video games, but it would need to be an amazing one, which is revolutionary)

Once that is accomplished, you are talking about licensing the IP for action figures, toys, Happy Meals, etc etc...

People here keep complaining about the rules and prices... that's small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

 Blacksails wrote:
A proofread, playtested rule set.

Balanced factions, both internally and externally.

This! ^

GW would have to take a leaf out of Blizzards play book, especially when it comes to Star Craft.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deschain wrote:

Lovable Renegade Rogue Trader and his interesting crew that you just grew to love, but are about to watch die meets New Alien Threat/New Tyranid Threat/New Necron Threat/Old Ancient Threat while exploring the outer regions of space on a Death World that has been scouted for his potential use as a Imperial Guard recruitment world.

Like.....Firefly?

Nobody here has a clue.

Price is not the issue, most every hobby or form of entertainment is expensive. I don't play video games but if I wanted to get into them a PS4 and one game would set me back about $400. Making 40k cheaper will not attract a meaningful amount of new players. Most new players are kids and kids don't have that kind of money, their parents do, and they're just as likely to buy jr. $500 worth of 40k games he's asking for as the new PS4 he wants. It al depends on what he asks for the most.

You want popularity? Thousands of new players? Make 40k mainstream? It's easy to do, and it's done in every market out there. It's so obvious and so simple I can't believe no one has mentioned it. It's called Celebrity Endorsement. If famous or popular people are doing it, all their fans will want to too. Actors, rock stars, athletes, get these people playing 40k and the masses will follow. Drop a few hundred thousand dollars in endorsement fees and give them the rules and models (pre built and painted) and then let it be known that XYZ plays in his (or her) down time and fans will flock to the game. It works every time, all of the time.

 cvtuttle wrote:
People here keep complaining about the rules and prices... that's small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

Rules are very important. Right now GW is limited to the few people who are willing to put up with terrible rules because they love the fluff/models so much. They're never going to grow beyond that market when anyone who isn't already interested in the game and committed to playing is probably going to throw their rulebook in the trash as soon as they try to play their first game. Expecting mainstream success is like expecting the latest buggy WoW clone to somehow take over the MMO market.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Price is not the issue, most every hobby or form of entertainment is expensive. I don't play video games but if I wanted to get into them a PS4 and one game would set me back about $400. Making 40k cheaper will not attract a meaningful amount of new players. Most new players are kids and kids don't have that kind of money, their parents do, and they're just as likely to buy jr. $500 worth of 40k games he's asking for as the new PS4 he wants. It al depends on what he asks for the most.

That's not true at all. Price is a huge barrier to entry. You might be well off and able to afford a $500 entertainment purchase, but not everyone is in a similar position. And when the cost to even start a hobby is $500+ a lot of people are going to say "that looks cool, but no thanks". And that's exactly what happens now. GW loses a lot of potential customers because of that initial cost, and until they do something about it they're going to have a hard time expanding beyond the dedicated fans who love the game so much that they're willing to pay that $500 up-front cost.

Plus, it's not a very good comparison. Most people by now are familiar with video games. They might not know the details of the new game/system, but they can reasonable expect that if they've enjoyed video games in the past they're probably going to be fairly happy with the next purchase. That's not true at all with something like 40k, where the average person has no reference point to judge how much they're going to enjoy their $500 purchase.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
In reality, a film isn't going to be nearly as hard to produce effectively as people make it out to. There's no need to explain everything about the background. The audience needs to know who the protagonists are, and who the film's antagonists are. That's it. They're not going to recap the whole of 40K. Say they make it Imperium vs some nasty Chaosy guys. In terms of what the audience needs to understand, the Horus Heresy can be boiled down to like four or five lines, lol. "In the dark and distant past, the legions of the Spess Mahreens, led by the immortal Emperor, succeeded in conquering nearly the whole of the known galaxy, crushing untold numbers of alien civilizations beneath their armored boots. But Horus, one of the Emprah's most trusted sons turned against his father, and corrupted nearly half the Imperium. After a short but brutal civil war, the tattered remnants of the traitors fled deep into Eye of Terror, a hellish area of space trapped between reality and the corrupted alternate dimension known as The Warp. And there, driven mad by cackling daemonic entities, they have remained for ten thousand years, plotting their revenge." Boom. 40K in a nutshell. This gets read by some kind of voice-over guy, and they show a montage of battles, then some angry, twisted Chaos Marine being all angry and ragey at the sky. Fade out, on with the movie. Audience has all it really needs to know. There's no need to explain the Eldar if they aren't going to be in the film. Heck, there's no need to even explain the Chaos gods.

But honestly, what's the point? If the movie is just good space marines vs. bad space marines it's going to be two hours of impressive action scenes, but not much to make a lasting impression on the genre. And of course once you've stripped it down to that minimalist version of the universe there's no reason to pay for the 40k license instead of just making a similar film from scratch.

Price is not the issue, most every hobby or form of entertainment is expensive. I don't play video games but if I wanted to get into them a PS4 and one game would set me back about $400. Making 40k cheaper will not attract a meaningful amount of new players. Most new players are kids and kids don't have that kind of money, their parents do, and they're just as likely to buy jr. $500 worth of 40k games he's asking for as the new PS4 he wants. It al depends on what he asks for the most.

Must be fun being an american m where parents have no problems with buying 500$ toys for their kids. If the hobby was cheaper or playable at a lower points level , it would be more popular . I have seen countless people check out w40k/WFB and then never start collecting , because the entry cost of an army is so high. Infinity and warmahordes are just as popular , as GW games here . WM could be even more popular , if PP weren't showing the finger to eastern europe.

 Wardragoon wrote:
3: Reduce prices or....HAVE SALES, this I think would get more people into playing 40k than even dawn of war did, telling a friend "Hey man, I know you like daemons but the price sucks, well around christmas they have a 20% off sale. Or once a month have an army from both fantasy and 40k on sale (lets say november is blood angels month, where blood angels are 10% off, and same thing for skaven.) I think this would honestly drive up sales to the point of stocks going even higher for GW.

This is something I've long wished they would do. Each month pick an army from each game system and offer a discount on it from their stores and online store. If it is a line that doesn't normally sell as well give it a bigger discount to bump up some sales. Last sale I saw in a GW store was when my local GW moved from one end of the mall they were in to the other and they had a grand re-opening sale in the new store once it opened. They offered a 20% discount and in the 2 hours I was at the store there was a constant line of 20 people each with a few hundred dollars worth of minis in their arms even after the discount. I have never seen another sale in a GW store since. Now that local store is a one man operation that is barely open 40 hours a week.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cvtuttle wrote:
None of this - except for perhaps #2 (and even then it will only remotely help) will do much to make 40k more popular to the size and scope of what the OP has stated. (Star Wars, Marvel, etc.) You need to think larger than the game or its component parts. You need to think of the IP in it's entirety. Meaning outside of the game. Film and Television are the only things at this point which will actively launch it to that higher stratosphere. (Potentially video games, but it would need to be an amazing one, which is revolutionary)

Once that is accomplished, you are talking about licensing the IP for action figures, toys, Happy Meals, etc etc...

People here keep complaining about the rules and prices... that's small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

Yes but it is a start. Investing in TV and movies to attract an already shrinking audience for the base game itself is somewhat wasted money. Start improving the basic audience size by pulling more people into the game and then an investment in TV and/or movies could pay off. You at least need a minimal audience there to keep a TV show going until others hear about it, think it might be interesting and jump into watching it as well. A show like The Clone Wars got off the ground and ran for 5 seasons because there is a MASSIVE fan base for Star Wars out there already. 40k doesn't have anywhere near that kind of draw and it isn't going to just appear over night because a TV show based on 40k is put on TV. It has to start at the root level with fans who can afford to get into the game and enjoy playing the game because it is a good game that people actually want to play. Once you get that momentum going in the right direction instead of the lagging sales volume numbers of today, THEN you can consider expanding into bigger sources of media.

The simple fact of the matter is that without that solid basic fan base no TV show or movie is going to magically make 40k popular. It still has to survive on its own. When it comes down to it is a miniatures game and that is where the focus needs to be. I don't want a line of action figures, TV series, movies or other unrelated things with the 40k logo on them if the game still tanks. The reason people talk about rules and costs here is because we don't care about the IP, but we care about the GAME. Without the game what is the point of the IP?

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:

Price is not the issue, most every hobby or form of entertainment is expensive. I don't play video games but if I wanted to get into them a PS4 and one game would set me back about $400. Making 40k cheaper will not attract a meaningful amount of new players. Most new players are kids and kids don't have that kind of money, their parents do, and they're just as likely to buy jr. $500 worth of 40k games he's asking for as the new PS4 he wants. It al depends on what he asks for the most.

Must be fun being an american m where parents have no problems with buying 500$ toys for their kids. If the hobby was cheaper or playable at a lower points level , it would be more popular . I have seen countless people check out w40k/WFB and then never start collecting , because the entry cost of an army is so high. Infinity and warmahordes are just as popular , as GW games here . WM could be even more popular , if PP weren't showing the finger to eastern europe.

Actually while there are some overindulgent parents in the US, most parents would laugh at their kid's demands for a $500 army just out of the blue or for the holidays. It is funny when people seem to think that is the norm and use it as an excuse for why GW's prices are acceptable. You are right, though, the buy in for this game is not even remotely acceptable to most people. I haven't gotten a new friend to join the game from the ground up in years. Why? Because they see my collection of minis, have fun playing a demo game and then start laughing when they look at the price on a single box at the store when they are ready to start playing. At my FLGS games with smaller buy ins are the norm now and 40k and WFB don't get played at all: Malifaux, Flames of War, and Warmachine/Hordes are the biggies. Uncharted seas was big for a while, but the rules were a bit cludgey as were the rules for Dystopian wars. People just don't want to pay the crazy prices GW demands anymore. I realized it was time to stop giving GW my money when I was able to buy a brand new Xbox 360, 3 brand new games and 7 older games for less than the new tyranid army I had planned out. The few 'nids I had already picked up are in the ebay queue now. At this stage I will be buying the last couple remaining codex updates I need for 6th edition and I am done with given GW any of my money. I love the fluff and building fun new armies, but the prices are just stupid now.

Skriker

 Wardragoon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

:Focus on their FFG stuff, right now that is gaining popularity due to the fact that there are relatively few fun scifi TT RPGs, if they can corner the market on Scifi tabletop RPGs it would go a long way for them, look how long WoTC had the generic fantasy RPG sector cornered.

GW doesn't own FFG, and WotC has had the fantasy RPG market cornered only since they bought TSR, which was.... less than 20 years ago. 15 years? Something like that. Dungeons & Dragons, the game that has cornered the fantasy RPG market, has been around since the 70s.

Indeed, TSR sold because they were on the verge of bankruptcy, so WotC took a failing business model and made it succeed quite well, and as for ffg I was meaning more pressure and support from GW to pimp out the Dark Heresy system

TSR did quite well for itself for many years... but then ran into the same problem that all other RPG companies eventually run into: Once the players have all the books they want, what else are they going to buy?

TSR was bought and sold several times before WotC got its hands on it.... and, no, D&D as a game was not failing, but TSR as a company was, the reliance on printing more and more books for 2nd Edition is the cause of this... printing costs were high, and the number of people buying the books low, simply because players either had no real need for the books (did anyone really need kits for their kits?) and other fantasy RPGs were pushing their way into the market...

... and let's not forget the rampant popularity of the White Wolf games that had kicked off in the early 90s. Vampire the Masquerade ate D&D's lunch for a good stretch there.

GW already had their hands on Dark Heresy. They published two books, washed their hands of the project, and sold it to FFG. While I have some issues with FFG's vision of the game, they have done a great job spinning out side-games and games in the same setting, even if these games are not really meant to be played together.

Alot of good suggestions, I am of an opinion that giving out free stuff goes a long way into getting folks started into the hobby. If they did demonstration games where they gave away the warlord for an army. That would help attract new players in the stores/ independant retailers. What good is a warlord without an army?

now if i remember right, GW got into a movie with Will smith. "enemy of the state." at the end his kid was reading the old school "free" copy of white dwarf(i with they bring those back)

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
1: More computer games. Screw going console. It won't play to your strengths. You need tactics games like Dawn of War (1st incarnation, not DoW2. DoW2 was a learning experience of what not to do). Also, an MMORPG for WH40K would also carry the franchise far and threaten other successful series like WoW, etc.

In my opinion, Dawn of War 1 was for RTS loyalists, and DoW2 was a hybrid between both RTS/strategy fans as well as table top fans, the second game has a way more potent blend because everything in the first felt very expendable, which just isn't "space mariney".

An MMO would be hard to pull off, I doubt it would be successful enough to draw in the current wh40k fanbase (pretty small) as well as other MMO fans. The best concept we are going to most likely get is Eternal Crusade.
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/

2: TV shows. Or even just official online shorts. Like how they do their RP's or for example the on-going campaigns (like Cadia?) except animate them for fans that can't buy ever piece of fluff and book out there. Even just animating a few key things like Draigo getting thrown into the Warp or Abbadon claiming Drach'nyen at the base of the Tower of Silence. Animation will carry this franchise far.

I still think a human planet with a PDF that focuses on the "human element" would be the best way to start, introduce lore and fluff from their, flesh out the weaker parts and create memorable characters. The hive city is the most interesting locations on human planets, considering their imperial use for "producing human resources and man power for the Imperial backbone".

3: MOVIE. MOVIE. OMG. MOVIE. With as visual and ADD/ADHD ridden as people are these days, a movie is the way to go. Which brings me to point 4

A tv series would be your best bet, a movie would be too short, and would most likely feel hollow.

Honestly, if I never heard of DoW, I would never have heard of the tabletop. My brother is the same way, and so are a couple friends of ours. Many of them would play the table top but it's too expensive and they don't have the time. They also like the lore, but they want to see it so they troll youtube for videos, as do I.

This is pretty much where I am at, loved the games, but the tabletop is too expensive which sums up all types of issues. For starters I need to go into the city to find a centralised hobby shop that is focused enough and has loyal customers that can afford the models. For me to make a group with locals, friends, university groups they would first need their own armies, which isn't going to happen.

When the models are so expensive they pretty much cut off an entire market with A LOT of free time (thinking holidays mainly).... STUDENTS.

 Peregrine wrote:
You're missing the point. Yes, 40k's Tolkien ripoffs have some superficial differences from the usual fantasy cliches, but they're superficial differences. Orks don't suddenly function differently in the story just because you give them guns (along with everyone else in the setting). You're still telling the same story as you would be in the fantasy setting, except with different visual elements.

I still fail to see WH40k in the same light as your generic definition, it equally combines both sci-fi elements and tolkein elements with it's own added components such as the Immaterium, Warp, Realm of Chaos and the such. It has enough familiar tropes and concepts such as races, but draws from other inspirations to develop races such as the Tau and others.

The problem with that is that 40k's characters, as a whole, aren't very memorable. You've got an endless series of "awesome chapter master X who killed A, B, C, D and saved planets blah, blah and blah" characters who exist for the sole purpose of letting the player project their own characteristics onto the leader of their army. Likewise, you don't really have very much interaction between them, just a list of battles to set up a tabletop scenario. That's fine for a tabletop game or a mindless action movie, but it's not going to make much else..

True, in that regard they've only needed to give the characters a "biography" so that they can sell with their own personal back story and the such for the tabletop game, a TV series could do this (create memorable characters) with credible writers on board, the video games have done this to varying degrees throughout the games, but it usually boils down to political relationships and connections.

But the claim was that 40k could make the kind of genre-defining movie that brings the IP to the level of mass appeal of something like Star Wars or LOTR. I'm sure that a 40k movie, done right, would have a good chance of making a profit, but that's not going to give you the next Star Wars.

I claimed a TV series that focused on the human element, such as poverty, xenophobia/paranoia, capitalism/heriarchies, hive worlds, criminals and the military would make a fantastic starting point for a TV series and introducing other factions and entities. Which it would, it's all about the execution and writing which is done differently in DIFFERENT mediums. The only reason that the lore is weak at times is because it doesn't need to be anything more for a tabletop games, the novels usually have "weak" writers I believe. I advocated AGAINST a movie....

They have multiple layers, but it's multiple bland layers. Yes, there's a detailed listing of all the battles they've fought, but "some of our guys were traitors and now we hunt them down" is far from original.

I find the cultures, personalities and societies of each race quite rich and interesting (as I said with Dark Angels and Eldar, I'm not going to type paragraphs explaining why but I can copy and paste wiki lore). I personally see a lot of creative potential that could be capitalised in different mediums, they did it with video games, they can do it with television.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Lovable Renegade Rogue Trader and his interesting crew that you just grew to love, but are about to watch die meets New Alien Threat/New Tyranid Threat/New Necron Threat/Old Ancient Threat while exploring the outer regions of space on a Death World that has been scouted for his potential use as a Imperial Guard recruitment world.

Sure if you want to draw that conclusion, there would be thousands of differences that could be done in the show to differ it from firefly to the point that the similarities are A. They have a crew on a small vessle B. They have a vessle....