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Made in us
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Palm Beach County FL, USA

So I have watched a number of games that would normally not be considered exciting to watch, flourish and grow recently. A prime example is poker. This game is rather slow and not so great to watch , and yet this game has televised competitions, and with that comes a huge mass of players and followers, not to mention money. My point is this, how do we do that with 40k? How to we make 40k more popular and accepted? To revert to the poker example, I have had many people say that a large part of what made it marketable was the fame that came from the television coverage. Just showing the game is not enough, if anyone has watched a T.V. poker game you will notice that in the corners they added the players cards, so that you, the viewer, knows what is happening. This builds an element of suspense and keeps viewers interested. In addition poker is a game that is easy to learn (not exactly a 40k thing), and cheap to play (GW take note), needing only a deck of cards. This makes that game marketable to large numbers of players. Another thing that helped poker was the free online poker, making it easy to play the game from your own living room. Long story short, is there anything that cen be done to help bring table top gaming to the public eye and acceptance, and with that the followers and the fame that go with it.

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Lowering the cost and simplifying the rules are pretty much the only way 40k will reach a audience of the scale you are referring to.

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






40k will not become more popular as long as GW owns it. A game with garbage rules like 40k is never going to be popular outside of its niche market, and GW is utterly incapable of making a game with good rules. So what you're left with is the fluff and models, which don't really appeal to anyone who isn't already interested in tabletop wargaming.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Lowering the cost and simplifying the rules are pretty much the only way 40k will reach a audience of the scale you are referring to.

You'd probably have to go to pre-painted models and terrain as well to have any kind of lasting mainstream acceptance. The amount of "work" this hobby takes would be extremely off-putting to many.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
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Palm Beach County FL, USA

 Eldarain wrote:
 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Lowering the cost and simplifying the rules are pretty much the only way 40k will reach a audience of the scale you are referring to.

You'd probably have to go to pre-painted models and terrain as well to have any kind of lasting mainstream acceptance. The amount of "work" this hobby takes would be extremely off-putting to many.


That is something I very much agree with, Painting and such can be a bit of a pain and draw away from the game. Producing both painted, and the current kit models would go a long way.

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...ignoring the anti-gw trolls, i think the video games helped a lot, particularly dawn of war. I think if we got a new, good, 40k game, that would boost popularity no end.

And a high profile, well made, 40k film would be phenominally helpful. preferably inquisitor as that would have the most potential for an actual storyline rather than 'there is only war!'

The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
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McKenzie, TN

You have a very basic misunderstanding of poker and your idea that a miniatures game could ever become as cheap as a deck of cards defies physics. If you want to compare warhammer to a more popular game then it would have to be MtG or video games.
1) Poker has been mainstream for at least two hundred years in the USA, you can see posters for poker tournaments and services in saloons related to poker all through the 1800's.
2) No matter how you do it you can never make a 3D figurine for less than you can make a 2D representation. If GW actually made figurines for the price of a pack of cards they would have to be green army men level of quality. At which point they will loose any customer base they had and will not be able to compete with Hasbro who has the money to crush them like insects.

Now if we want to discuss how GW could improve their popularity and possibly get to video game popularity then some of the ideas mentioned would help greatly.
1) Tighten up the rules so they are more streamlined and error free.
2) Create a cheaper starter level. Just as they have forgeworld they should release the cheapie mono pose plastic marines so new players can have a cheap way to get in.
3) Think about shifting the money making from the books to the figurines. If you look it up you will see that sales of PS2 consoles were not a money maker for sony. Instead they made the money off of game sales and developer packages/rights. GW could think of a similar approach where the basic rules and absolute minimum entry is cheap and the upgrades make up the profit.
4) Advertise more. Honestly the best advertisement GW ever did was the DoW video game series. That thing probably moved more product than any other single decision GW has made. They really should encourage more of this.
5) Effort level is a huge detriment to the "mainstream" popularity of this hobby. This unfortunately is probably not something that can be completely overcome without destroying the hobby. Perhaps if they provide their minimum entry in an optional pre machined painted version (can look pretty good if we are talking SM or orks) this would give people a way to get started and not have grey figures.

The interesting thing is GW has already taken a step in the right direction with their faster release schedule. As long as they don't change armies mid edition and stay with their current edition change time line then this could be a positive change. They just need to get a better at play testing and FAQ publishing.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




Warhammer 40K is extremely nerdy. It involves assembling, painting, and moving around small miniatures while consulting a "Codex" for rules and rolling dice. 40K will never, ever be culturally popular. It's not a game with a long history (chess), is not simple (checkers), does not use a common medium (cards), and the setting does not have mass appeal (like Monopoly).

Not to be a jerk, but we Warhammer players need to simply accept that what we do is not "cool" to the vast majority of people. The girl in the bar is never going to be impressed by your 3 Riptides, and your coworkers don't generally care that you run a nasty Wraithwing. At the family reunion, no one is going to ask how you deal with wave serpent spam when they're done asking cousin billy about his new job.

Warhammer 40K is fun. We all love the setting, some of the models, and the feeling of customizing an army and making it ours. We enjoy the thrill of seeing 6's at the right time and groan when there are way too many 1's in that roll. I don't care about the popularity; as long as there's at least one other person willing to set up 2000 points across from me. However, these things do not necessarily have mass appeal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 02:18:47


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Palm Beach County FL, USA

 greyknight12 wrote:
Warhammer 40K is extremely nerdy. It involves assembling, painting, and moving around small miniatures while consulting a "Codex" for rules and rolling dice. 40K will never, ever be culturally popular. It's not a game with a long history (chess), is not simple (checkers), does not use a common medium (cards), and the setting does not have mass appeal (like Monopoly).

Not to be a jerk, but we Warhammer players need to simply accept that what we do is not "cool" to the vast majority of people. The girl in the bar is never going to be impressed by your 3 Riptides, and your coworkers don't generally care that you run a nasty Wraithwing. At the family reunion, no one is going to ask how you deal with wave serpent spam when they're done asking cousin billy about his new job.

Warhammer 40K is fun. We all love the setting, some of the models, and the feeling of customizing an army and making it ours. We enjoy the thrill of seeing 6's at the right time and groan when there are way too many 1's in that roll. However, these things do not necessarily have mass appeal. That said, I don't care; as long as there's at least one other person willing to set up 2000 points across from me.


It is the fact that I love the game though that makes me want to see it become more popular. That said, all of what you said is EXTREMELY true.

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 greyknight12 wrote:
Warhammer 40K is extremely nerdy. It involves assembling, painting, and moving around small miniatures while consulting a "Codex" for rules and rolling dice. 40K will never, ever be culturally popular. It's not a game with a long history (chess), is not simple (checkers), does not use a common medium (cards), and the setting does not have mass appeal (like Monopoly).

Not to be a jerk, but we Warhammer players need to simply accept that what we do is not "cool" to the vast majority of people. The girl in the bar is never going to be impressed by your 3 Riptides, and your coworkers don't generally care that you run a nasty Wraithwing. At the family reunion, no one is going to ask how you deal with wave serpent spam when they're done asking cousin billy about his new job.

Warhammer 40K is fun. We all love the setting, some of the models, and the feeling of customizing an army and making it ours. We enjoy the thrill of seeing 6's at the right time and groan when there are way too many 1's in that roll. I don't care about the popularity; as long as there's at least one other person willing to set up 2000 points across from me. However, these things do not necessarily have mass appeal.


it's too complicated. look at well.. Poker as an example. it's a pretty simple game. meanwhile 40k has all sorts of complicated rules etc. you can't sit someone down and teach someone in 5 minutes how to play 40k. you can teach em Poker. (especially if you have a handy dandy "poker hands" cheat sheet printed out

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I'm forcing myself to imagine an unlikely future in which I lose my home in a high-stakes night of 40k.

Seriously, why stopping at poker? Why can't 40k be like, say, soccer? That way I'd make a couple million euros a year, and maybe get to marry a supermodel.

Damn you, GW, damn you!



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WA, USA

I'm sorry, but not to undercut this thread, but why the hell do we want to be 'more popular' if it means us attracting and acting the insufferable professional poker people?

 Ouze wrote:

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Palm Beach County FL, USA

I get the feeling that the poker example was a bit over ambitious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 curran12 wrote:
I'm sorry, but not to undercut this thread, but why the hell do we want to be 'more popular' if it means us attracting and acting the insufferable professional poker people?


Perhaps my wish to expand is due to the fact that in my area I am watching 40k lose players very rapidly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 03:03:09


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 leotau1991 wrote:

Perhaps my wish to expand is due to the fact that in my area I am watching 40k lose players very rapidly.


Which begs the question: are the leaving the wargaming hobby altogether after moving away from 40k? Or are they moving on to other, arguably better rulesets and other games?

   
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Brisbane

 curran12 wrote:
I'm sorry, but not to undercut this thread, but why the hell do we want to be 'more popular' if it means us attracting and acting the insufferable professional poker people?



Aye, just look at what the console did to comptuer games! Most games are so "common donominator" now. I'm probably just jaded, though.

Get your models on the table and looking good!


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Palm Beach County FL, USA

 infinite_array wrote:
 leotau1991 wrote:

Perhaps my wish to expand is due to the fact that in my area I am watching 40k lose players very rapidly.


Which begs the question: are the leaving the wargaming hobby altogether after moving away from 40k? Or are they moving on to other, arguably better rulesets and other games?


War machine seems to be the place to go. The shop is pushing it, its a new game, though the models are about the same price, you need less of em. That is my under standing.

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 leotau1991 wrote:
War machine seems to be the place to go. The shop is pushing it, its a new game, though the models are about the same price, you need less of em. That is my under standing.


Sounds like the problem isn't mass popularity then, it's people deciding they're done with GW's awful games and finding something better to do. So, again, the answer is that 40k will only become more popular when GW goes bankrupt and someone else buys the IP.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
 leotau1991 wrote:
War machine seems to be the place to go. The shop is pushing it, its a new game, though the models are about the same price, you need less of em. That is my under standing.


Sounds like the problem isn't mass popularity then, it's people deciding they're done with GW's awful games and finding something better to do. So, again, the answer is that 40k will only become more popular when GW goes bankrupt and someone else buys the IP.

Yes I agree with you.
For as long as gw owns 40k it won't get popular. I once was telling a non-wargammer about the hobby, he thought it was cool until I told him the prices. So the prices are also a turn off.


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Historical wargames would have better resonance with the public and have been used in a number of TV programmes.

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xruslanx wrote:
And a high profile, well made, 40k film would be phenominally helpful. preferably inquisitor as that would have the most potential for an actual storyline rather than 'there is only war!'


Kind of like how the Hobbit gave a huge boost to GW's LOTR games and made them a mainstream thing?

Also, 40k is never going to have a good movie. One of the biggest reasons why 40k is a good setting for a game is that it's a blob of generic scifi archetypes mixed together so that no matter what army you make you can find a place for it in the setting. The downside is that 40k has very little to offer as a film, there just aren't any compelling stories or themes to work with and everything is hopelessly generic. All you'd get is another forgettable big-budget action movie with lots of battle scenes to entertain you for a couple hours but not much else. And if that's your goal then why bother with the 40k license? You can make the exact same film without giving GW a share of the profit, and the 40k brand name isn't big enough to bring in a lot of customers that wouldn't already pay to see it.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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McKenzie, TN

 Peregrine wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
And a high profile, well made, 40k film would be phenominally helpful. preferably inquisitor as that would have the most potential for an actual storyline rather than 'there is only war!'


Kind of like how the Hobbit gave a huge boost to GW's LOTR games and made them a mainstream thing?

Also, 40k is never going to have a good movie. One of the biggest reasons why 40k is a good setting for a game is that it's a blob of generic scifi archetypes mixed together so that no matter what army you make you can find a place for it in the setting. The downside is that 40k has very little to offer as a film, there just aren't any compelling stories or themes to work with and everything is hopelessly generic. All you'd get is another forgettable big-budget action movie with lots of battle scenes to entertain you for a couple hours but not much else. And if that's your goal then why bother with the 40k license? You can make the exact same film without giving GW a share of the profit, and the 40k brand name isn't big enough to bring in a lot of customers that wouldn't already pay to see it.

Well the original story line of Pilanius would have been pretty awesome. Overall the most unique things in 40K are also incredibly creepy; aka cherubims, adeptus mechanicum or too involved; dark eldar.
   
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The mass marketed version of 40k is tokens with pictures on them all about the same size as our current bases and terrain drawn on paper. A set of streamlined rules and some dice rolling. Sadly, that is not the game we are playing. This is an art form game, it can't compete with cheap board games, doesn't have the big money feel of vegas-style gambling games, the storyline of a good movie or book, or the interactive nature of a video game.

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 ansacs wrote:

Now if we want to discuss how GW could improve their popularity and possibly get to video game popularity then some of the ideas mentioned would help greatly.
1) Tighten up the rules so they are more streamlined and error free.
2) Create a cheaper starter level. Just as they have forgeworld they should release the cheapie mono pose plastic marines so new players can have a cheap way to get in.
3) Think about shifting the money making from the books to the figurines. If you look it up you will see that sales of PS2 consoles were not a money maker for sony. Instead they made the money off of game sales and developer packages/rights. GW could think of a similar approach where the basic rules and absolute minimum entry is cheap and the upgrades make up the profit.
4) Advertise more. Honestly the best advertisement GW ever did was the DoW video game series. That thing probably moved more product than any other single decision GW has made. They really should encourage more of this.
5) Effort level is a huge detriment to the "mainstream" popularity of this hobby. This unfortunately is probably not something that can be completely overcome without destroying the hobby. Perhaps if they provide their minimum entry in an optional pre machined painted version (can look pretty good if we are talking SM or orks) this would give people a way to get started and not have grey figures.


1) Not that important. The game lives on it's visuals, not it's ruleset.
2) Somewhat agreed. The starter boxes (DM, etc) are good but limited.
3) The figures are the money makers - they've just jacked up the prices of the rules and supplements to match since they're nearing the point of no return on model prices.
4) I'll upsell your DoW with HeroQuest and Space Crusade (and even Battlemasters) available as affordable boardgames in all kinds of mainstream stores through the MB partnership. MB is now part of the Hasbro empire, so that won't be happening again... LotR worked well initially, but they killed the Hobbit stillborn with crazy-land prices.
5) Agreed, but it'll never happen (unless they get bought out by Hasbro).

But wargaming or GW will never come close to touching videogame levels of popularity or market penetration. Compare the price of an XBox 360/PS3 over the last year or two with a couple of games to getting started in 40k/WFB beyond the DV/IoB boxes...

   
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 Azazelx wrote:
1) Not that important. The game lives on it's visuals, not it's ruleset.


Among its current audience, yes. But that's because 40k's current audience consists of the small minority of people who love the fluff/models enough to put up with the awful rules. For 40k to get any kind of mass appeal they need to dump the unprofessional garbage and make a good set of rules.

3) The figures are the money makers - they've just jacked up the prices of the rules and supplements to match since they're nearing the point of no return on model prices.


The idea with that is to make the rules free/cheap to drive sales of the models, not to just increase model prices. GW would take a loss on the rules (though not much of one since most people willing to settle for a downloaded pdf of the rules probably just pirate the books anyway) but make up for it by increasing sales of their high-profit models.

But wargaming or GW will never come close to touching videogame levels of popularity or market penetration. Compare the price of an XBox 360/PS3 over the last year or two with a couple of games to getting started in 40k/WFB beyond the DV/IoB boxes...


That's because you're defining "wargaming" as "GW-style wargaming". Other games are much cheaper to play, either because they use fewer models (Warmachine/Hordes, X-Wing, Infinity, etc) or cheaper models (historicals). For any non-GW game the time and effort to build an army are going to be much bigger limiting factors than the price.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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The Sawmill

 Peregrine wrote:
40k will not become more popular as long as GW owns it. A game with garbage rules like 40k is never going to be popular outside of its niche market, and GW is utterly incapable of making a game with good rules. So what you're left with is the fluff and models, which don't really appeal to anyone who isn't already interested in tabletop wargaming.


Obvious troll is obvious. If it's so bad, why do you play it? hell you're even looking to buy people's superheavies. Go to warmahordes or something, jerk.

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 Lord Gatlas wrote:
Obvious troll is obvious.


You might want to review the forum rules before posting again.

If it's so bad, why do you play it?


Because I enjoy the fluff and models enough to have fun with an occasional game despite the terrible rules.

hell you're even looking to buy people's superheavies.


Hint: some people like to build and paint models even if they can't use them in a game. In fact, I hear there are entire hobbies built around models that have no game rules at all.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Nasty Nob





United States

 Peregrine wrote:
 Lord Gatlas wrote:
Obvious troll is obvious.


You might want to review the forum rules before posting again.

If it's so bad, why do you play it?


Because I enjoy the fluff and models enough to have fun with an occasional game despite the terrible rules.

hell you're even looking to buy people's superheavies.


Hint: some people like to build and paint models even if they can't use them in a game. In fact, I hear there are entire hobbies built around models that have no game rules at all.


Sadly that last bit.. about painting models and having no game at all.. seems to be the niche GW is filling with 40k.. Like painting models? Play this game, we kinda have some rules you can play with and nice models to paint.

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Between

 ansacs wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
And a high profile, well made, 40k film would be phenominally helpful. preferably inquisitor as that would have the most potential for an actual storyline rather than 'there is only war!'


Kind of like how the Hobbit gave a huge boost to GW's LOTR games and made them a mainstream thing?

Also, 40k is never going to have a good movie. One of the biggest reasons why 40k is a good setting for a game is that it's a blob of generic scifi archetypes mixed together so that no matter what army you make you can find a place for it in the setting. The downside is that 40k has very little to offer as a film, there just aren't any compelling stories or themes to work with and everything is hopelessly generic. All you'd get is another forgettable big-budget action movie with lots of battle scenes to entertain you for a couple hours but not much else. And if that's your goal then why bother with the 40k license? You can make the exact same film without giving GW a share of the profit, and the 40k brand name isn't big enough to bring in a lot of customers that wouldn't already pay to see it.

Well the original story line of Pilanius would have been pretty awesome. Overall the most unique things in 40K are also incredibly creepy; aka cherubims, adeptus mechanicum or too involved; dark eldar.


Pilanius? Really?

What story is there? He was just an ordinary soldier who happened to have the big, brass ovaries to tell a giant in powered armour "You shall not pass!", then got shot for it. Not exactly Film of the Year material.



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Elsewhere

W40k should be as big as X-Men, Star Wars or Lord of the Rings. 25 years ago they were all of them nerdy things. W40h has stayed the same while the rest are really popular. I am still stunned whenever I meet someone and he (even more if it´s a she) knows who Magneto, Sauron or Darth Vader are. Time changes, the new generation is full of nerds.

So what is holding w40k down?
1) The lack of a properly playtested rule set. The fact that many things do not work as they are written. The absurd complexity of the basic rules, that involves owning many books.
2) The total lack of balance. Four flavors:
2.1: Attention Balance. It is not fun if you MUST be a Space Marine or become a second class player. I know lots of people that quit this game because of that.
2.2: Internal Balance: useless units together with overpowered ones. Also notice the lack of effort put into fixing the balance once it is clear it is broken. Vendettas, Pyrovores, Mandrakes, Flayed Ones, Heldrakes are broken, everybody knows it yet GW does nothing.
2.3: External Balance: a well known problem. Codex Creep is not fun. Seeing the Sisters of Battle not getting it because nobody in the studio cares is even worse.
2.4: Background Balance. This is getting worse and worse. There was a time when Codexes were about the faction in the title. Know most of them includes lots of stuff about how awesome Space Marines are.
3) A company trying to protect the Intellectual Property (the setting) that makes this game big. GW does nothing of the sort. They do significant changes in the setting without caring at all and waste time and money in ridiculous legal battles that fill many players with shame.
4) Stop trying to make this a game for 12 old boys. It is not working. It is too dark, and every change in this regard makes more people quit the game.
5) Price. If you want something to be popular, it must be cheap. Some starter armies are needed. Free stuff, special offers...



‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
 
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