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Reading over this thread and some others, different types of events may be a good idea, particularly if two or three different popular opinions or "groups" emerge.


As noted earlier by Pleasantnoodles, one could do a varying number of events, here's another idea of a breakdown that could give some other ideas:

"Spartan": Core Codex+BRB only (no Supplements, FW, Allies, subfactions, superheavies, etc)

"Limited": Anything that doesn't mess with FoC's (all codex books, FW, sub-faction supplements, etc but no allies/formations/superheavies/fortifications, etc.)

"Standard" As limited but with Allies and a Fortification slot, basically what would have encompassed the widest definition of "normal" 40k until recently. (all codex books, FW, sub-faction Supplements, allies, 1 fortification).

"Open": Anything GW makes for normal play (Codex books, FW, Supplements, Allies, Escalation, Stronghold Assault, Formations, etc)

@ Reecius

What ever you do please post it before Christmas as most of us east coasters need to time to prepare and sort out the army and then pack it all.

@Thread

We're trying out a game with Jy2 and Spam Adams using Formations, Super Heavies with D weapons and what not....HAHAHAHA

I will let the incoming Video Bat Rep tell the story, I really don't need to say anything

LVO attendee Poll will be going out tonight after that video!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheJugHead

Totally understand, that is why we are rushing this. We will have decisions made by the end of next week, count on it.

The phones been ringing all day with the same questions, haha.

boyd wrote:
Personally, I like the idea of two tournaments.

One can be 'Ard Boyz style. No holds barred, no painting, no comp, no sportsmenship, if its in a rule book or FAQ it is perfectly legal.

The second tournament can be a true RTT. This tournament will have painting scores, comp, sportsmenship, and all that other jazz people complain about.

Since I did click comp scores and I feel that two separate tournaments should be played, I think players should only be docked points based on repatitive items other than those listed as troops and if you choose allies that do not trust each other or have some animosity towards one another.

I don't attend tournaments because they don't go for these things. I also voted comp an separate tournaments. If I saw a solid comp system for a tourney I'd be all over it every year.

Sounds like a Softcore Tourn and Hardcore Tourn separation doesn't look too bad...

By the way, i think that the people who are voting against digital arent against all digital stuff, just thr stuff thats only available digitally.

Just a note - have any of you tried to teach a new player the game recently?

My wife has been trying to learn the game in time for the LVO. At this point, I'm tempted to say "hell with it" and pick up Malifaux instead. 2 months is plenty of time to learn & paint that.

I can't keep up with 40k "rules" right now even if I wanted to.

Edit: Here's a question, and I don't actually know the answer (I've not been paying much attention to 40k since September): how many of the silly-broken aspects of formations/dataslates/etc. rely upon Battle Brothers status? Would just dropping the Allies matrix, in favor of "everyone is a Desperate Ally of everyone else," clear up most of it?

 Janthkin wrote:

I can't keep up with 40k "rules" right now even if I wanted to.

The complexity is only growing the more GW sutures onto the original game. Worse is that much of that extra stuff is digital only and is becoming increasingly hard for the average person to keep up (with time and money a factor in that curve).

I've not seen a game system explode with so much content before in so short a time.

If you ban BB as an ally you're penalizing certain armies that aren't abusive. Why ruin it for everyone?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you ban BB as an ally you're penalizing certain armies that aren't abusive. Why ruin it for everyone?

I can't think of any BB that are taken that aren't abusive.

So BA and UM can't attach IC's to each other. So what.

Tau should never be allowed to have psychic powers cast on them. Nor should they be allowed to have superior psychic defenses through an attached Farseer.

BB is one of the most abused feature of 6th edition. No army is remotely affected by removing it, except for abusive lists.

Reece,

I know you've already realized a few of the flaws of the way you asked particular questions in this poll, but I'd reiterate to be wary about figuring out what percentage of people are voting for what based on this poll. Because, for example, the 'two different tournaments' option should not be included in this poll. Whether or not you should run separate tournaments should be a RESULT from the data collected, NOT an actual choice. Because most players believe that they have a pretty good handle on how things 'should' be fixed (from their point of view), so they don't necessarily see the need for separate tournaments because they think most people would agree with their opinion if only they heard it.

Oh, and thanks to seeing this poll we'll get a 'total unique voters' count added to our Dakka polls that allow multiple votes (so in the future it will be easier to figure out percentages based on how many actual voters participated in the thread)...so thanks for that!


----


My personal 2 cents:

I vote for having two tournaments. One is completely unbridled, unless there is something that pretty much universally everyone agrees is utterly impossible to allow (like Super-heavies via Escalation).

The second event I would vote for removing allies, for the reason that it breaks alot of the crazy combos and brings army list construction back towards the general canon of the 40k universe. On top of that, you should also make any rules changes you see fit to bust combos that exist within a single codex that create unfun situations (such as re-rollable 2++ saves). In this 2nd event, I really think your own judgement can just be used as much as you see fit as the other unfettered event remains for those who don't like the restrictions you put into place.

Whether or not you allow any forgeworld, dataslates, etc, into the restricted event would be entirely up to you. So you could even choose to ban particular FW units you think are broken and allow the remaining FW units, for example.

I like "everything goes" and "no allies" as two different but equal events.

I think the game is better balanced with no allies as the new codexes seem to have good internal balance. I see no evidence that the ally matrix is balanced, fair or new codexes are explicitly designed with them in mind in regards to balance.

Allies was a disaster in 6th. I think they needed to put more thought into the design and balance. I would have rather seen "hybrid" units which plug into multiple armies which grants limited and balanced allies. But it is too late now!

Common consensus seems to be that Screamerstar is the second most abusive and horrible list in 40K, and it entirely relies on units from a single standard codex. Removing battle brothers would damage Seerstars and Taudar, but that will just leave the screamers alone as the most powerful option. Does setting tournaments up to be all one abusive army at the top help things? Or wouldn't that be an even worse situation than we have now where there are at least a variety of broken and despised options?

Screamerstar is a response to Taudar. It can be tarpited and ignored. Taudar does very well against the types of armies that can tarpit Screamerstar away. So yes removing BB will diminish the power of Screamerstar, indirectly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it's not only Tauda and Jetseer that gets hampered by removing BB. It also prevents the ridiculous allying a codex with its supplement so Tau-Farsight could not ally together to effectively increase the FOC slots for that army. It's giving armies access to increased FOC selections while denying them to most everyone else.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Reading over this thread and some others, different types of events may be a good idea, particularly if two or three different popular opinions or "groups" emerge.


As noted earlier by Pleasantnoodles, one could do a varying number of events, here's another idea of a breakdown that could give some other ideas:

"Spartan": Core Codex+BRB only (no Supplements, FW, Allies, subfactions, superheavies, etc)

"Limited": Anything that doesn't mess with FoC's (all codex books, FW, sub-faction supplements, etc but no allies/formations/superheavies/fortifications, etc.)

"Standard" As limited but with Allies and a Fortification slot, basically what would have encompassed the widest definition of "normal" 40k until recently. (all codex books, FW, sub-faction Supplements, allies, 1 fortification).

"Open": Anything GW makes for normal play (Codex books, FW, Supplements, Allies, Escalation, Stronghold Assault, Formations, etc)

Not voting since I rarely play tournaments - but I like this idea a lot and I think that it might also make more people interested in events. They could pick and choose what they enjoy playing. However, I can also imagine this causing a huge amount of work for TO's.

 yakface wrote:

My personal 2 cents:

I vote for having two tournaments. One is completely unbridled, unless there is something that pretty much universally everyone agrees is utterly impossible to allow (like Super-heavies via Escalation).

The second event I would vote for removing allies, for the reason that it breaks alot of the crazy combos and brings army list construction back towards the general canon of the 40k universe. On top of that, you should also make any rules changes you see fit to bust combos that exist within a single codex that create unfun situations (such as re-rollable 2++ saves). In this 2nd event, I really think your own judgement can just be used as much as you see fit as the other unfettered event remains for those who don't like the restrictions you put into place.

Whether or not you allow any forgeworld, dataslates, etc, into the restricted event would be entirely up to you. So you could even choose to ban particular FW units you think are broken and allow the remaining FW units, for example.

Pretty much my exact feelings. Scoring them differently might be a good idea too with only battle points in the unbridled tournament and sports/paint/battle for the no allies event.

@Thread

Again, thanks for all the awesome feedback, everyone! Really helps to sort this stuff out.

So, after 3 days of non-stop thinking about this and communication a plan is starting to form in my mind as to how to handle this craziness!

I am going to wait for the LVO poll results but based on those we have a few different contingency plans laid out as to how to react to what our players want. I feel confident that this will all be no big deal.

But, after seeing D Weapons in action in normal 40K? You had better be prepared for what is coming and enjoy that style play. If you show up at a tournament and get the D, you are going to be royally pissed off and not enjoy your game in the slightest. I am uploading the video bat rep as I type this, it is almost done rendering.

@Carl

You said it. That is in theory a sweet option but in practice it creates logistical headaches.

More staff
More prizes
More admin
More of everything, really.

@Yak

Yeah I biffed the questions a bit, no doubt. But, the data still gives us some good indicators. Not as tight as I wanted, but I learned what not to do in the future so fair play.

You may be on the right track with the dual event format. It would be tough to pull off logistically as people are not expecting that at this point, but I think that if our poll data reflects a strong divide between the "all in" and restricted crowd, we may have to go for it.

I was thinking we could do:

40K Unleashed!
All in, everyting legal goes. Be prepared for what is coming!

40K Tactical!
Restrictions based on player feedback.

What do you guys think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, that would only be if the LVO Poll results reflect a strong divide, not a definite plan.

 Reecius wrote:
@Yak

Yeah I biffed the questions a bit, no doubt. But, the data still gives us some good indicators. Not as tight as I wanted, but I learned what not to do in the future so fair play.

You may be on the right track with the dual event format. It would be tough to pull off logistically as people are not expecting that at this point, but I think that if our poll data reflects a strong divide between the "all in" and restricted crowd, we may have to go for it.

I was thinking we could do:

40K Unleashed!
All in, everyting legal goes. Be prepared for what is coming!

40K Tactical!
Restrictions based on player feedback.

What do you guys think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, that would only be if the LVO Poll results reflect a strong divide, not a definite plan.

As I said to you via email, the dual event maybe is something you just look to add into the BAO and next LVO, as opposed to trying to make it happen for this year. For this year, you probably just want to ban Escalation (depending on what the actual rules are) and just let everything else play out as the crazy cluster-$#$@ that GW intends.

Oh, and those tournament names are dangerous, as it implies that the event you're putting restrictions on is more 'tactical', which is going to anger the people who feel that the unrestricted one is the 'real' 40k. I think the restricted tournament should be called something more like 'traditional' 40k or even 'restricted' 40k.

You definitely want the restricted one to have the more 'negative' sounding name, if that makes sense, so that the people playing in the 'unleashed' one don't feel like they're the ones not playing 'real' 40k anymore.

Yeah, folks are very sensitive to the names, no joke. We'll see what the LVO poll gives us. It may not even be necessary.

But, here's a quick and dirty video bat rep with the new hotness!

In this test game, Jy2 busts out Be'Lakor and an FMC/Soulgrinder Daemon/CSM list against an insane Mash-up list Spam Adam pilots that consists of Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tau and a Revenant Titan! Under current 40K rules, all of this stuff is legal for "standard" games. Would you want to play games like this in a tournament or no?

6th edition already wasn't any fun to play. This gak just looks completely pointless now, one unit can just wipe whole swathes of gak off the board on the first turn, before they even get to do anything.

The only fun had in the video was laughing at how fething stupid this bs is and illustrating how much of a waste of time playing a game is now.

Good luck Reecius, you're going to need it. = \

I understand the frustation all too well, trust me. GW is taking a dump on us with this crap, IMO.

But, I still love this game, I still really love this community and I still love tournaments and conventions.

We can find a way to make it work and still be a fun, fair, competitive event. I just think this illustrates that playing unmodified 40K is not the way to do it as a general guideline. For a specialized type of tournament? Sure. But not as a general rule of thumb, IMO.

Taking a dump on you?

That's ridiculous! Remember the threads trying to decide whether to lower points totals or add time to each round?

They just solved those problems in one fell swoop. 7 round tournament wrapped up in 3 hours or so.

Thanks GW!

The more I read these threads the more I am convinced that two things need to change.

Fix the 2++ rerollable to a 2+4+ rerollable.

Second no allies. I like allies because I want to run Salamanders and Iron Hands or Salamanders and White Scars but some of the combos available are just too over the top.

My two cents

I say play it all and drop the points down to 1500 and be done with it.

My second choice and the one I think is growing in consensuses is simple...

Ban Battle Brothers & Don't allow Escalation and the game is vastly more "balanced".

LVO Poll out!

@Eldarian

Games indeed do go very, very fast now!

@Overwatch

Vote in the poll, my friend!

@Tastey

It's pretty gnar gnar to have the D weapons in the game. I don't know if that is a good choice, honestly. In fact, I am pretty strongly against it.

Time will tell, but in the limited amount of time we've had to try it out, it is straight up Captain Insane-O.

As for D-weapons, you should play the game again with the titan facing off against a dedicated titan-killing army (pods full of melta sternguard, etc) and see how much fun anyone has when the titan explodes on turn 1 before getting even a single shot off.

 Reecius wrote:
LVO Poll out!

@Eldarian

Games indeed do go very, very fast now!

@Overwatch

Vote in the poll, my friend!

@Tastey

It's pretty gnar gnar to have the D weapons in the game. I don't know if that is a good choice, honestly. In fact, I am pretty strongly against it.

Time will tell, but in the limited amount of time we've had to try it out, it is straight up Captain Insane-O.

So their is only what two Lords of War that have ranged shooting D weapons right? Two that have template D weapons?

Eldar Titan being the most abusive, but as I see it it cannot hurt flying monstrous creatures, so just throw one of them at it in assault and watch it be ground to dust. Now Correct me if I am wrong, but you can still Look out sir any D-hits? So your characters are sorta safe. It will have most likely have to use both D-weapons to kill a single monstrous creature. My only question, is since I don't have a book did it end up being true they reduced the cost of the Lords of War? If not 900 points used in a 1500 point game leaves you with what?

Worse comes to worse I throw 50 man blog squad at it and see if it can Smash its way throw that many models, with Azeral 4+ invul. I take Belekor and Black Legion flying Eternal Warrior prince and go to town. It cannot hurt flyers either. That is just thinking about the problem for like 10 mins. Frankly, I am more concerned facing a Shadowsword more than the Titan. NO doubt this hurts Death Stars, but it takes cares of a lot of problems and replaces it with only one. I also don't know what extra Warlord Traits you get if you do not take a Super-Heavy?

Now if the costs are reduced we have a serious problem, but I cannot find any real answer to that yet.

@Peregrine

Sure, a list tailored to beat it will do better, no doubt. But the objective was to show a normal tournament list against what can come and see what happened.

This is a situation you could find yourself in in a tournament.

@Tastey

We did throw an FMC against it and it got Stomped to death in one round of combat =(

Read the Stomp rules if you have not, yet.

A good player can bubble wrap it to prevent assault, too.

Now, I am not saying it is unbeatable, but it is so incredibly powerful. You get no saves (and yes, I think LoS! still works, but we were picking up units at a time).

We'll keep trying it but be sure if this Titan is best (which we think it is) it is the one you will be seeing.

With 600 points what are they are going to bubble wrap with? Even if you do bubble wrap it, it will be so thin one template should poke a hole right through.

I know about Stomp I thought I didn't work against Flying monstrous creatures (I don't play Apoc), even if it does so now you bring both FMC at opposite ends of the model meaning it can only stomp one FMC at a time? It needs a 6 to kill the FMC on one die. It can only kill two vehicles at a time, it sucks if you run a LR list or take other spendy tanks, but if a 900 point unit cannot destroy 250 point unit we have problems in the opposite direction. Sure it can kill models, but the blob units in the game are currently killed in similar ways. For 510 points I can take 3 Heldrakes and they are immune to this thing. I am sure you can think of something, but what combination of 600 points you have left over after spending for a Titan can handle 3 Drakes? What Scoring unit will survive? Here is a five second example I created.

1500 Pts - Codex: Black Legion Roster - 1500 to Prove a Point

Total Roster Cost: 1498

HQ: Typhus (1#, 230 pts)
1 Typhus, 230 pts

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 350 pts)
1 Daemon Prince, 310 pts = (base cost 145 + Power Armour 20 + Wings 40 + Increase Mastery Level x3 75 + Daemon of Nurgle 15 + Spell Familiar 15)
1 The Skull of Ker'ngar, 40 pts

Troops: Plague Zombies (32#, 138 pts)
31 Plague Zombies, 124 pts = 31 * 4
1 Plague Zombie Champion, 14 pts

Troops: Plague Zombies (20#, 90 pts)
19 Plague Zombies, 76 pts = 19 * 4
1 Plague Zombie Champion, 14 pts

Troops: Plague Zombies (20#, 90 pts)
19 Plague Zombies, 76 pts = 19 * 4
1 Plague Zombie Champion, 14 pts

Troops: Plague Zombies (20#, 90 pts)
19 Plague Zombies, 76 pts = 19 * 4
1 Plague Zombie Champion, 14 pts

Fast Attack: Heldrake (1#, 170 pts)
1 Heldrake, 170 pts

Fast Attack: Heldrake (1#, 170 pts)
1 Heldrake, 170 pts

Fast Attack: Heldrake (1#, 170 pts)
1 Heldrake, 170 pts

My point is without getting into list hammering for about 5 pages is, with all this variety their is a counter to everything. Now the problem with 6th for Tournaments is with so much choice it means bad match ups can rule the day and when you have to think about the majority of causual Tournament participants that just want fun games, it is a hard struggle one I don't envy you being in.

Hey, I am not trying to say it is one thing or another really, just saying our first go with it (rushed and with probably some rules messed up) was not fun.

In time, it could be fine but we're under the gun to get this information out and a decision made ASAP so people can plan for our event, you know?

I wish we had more time but we had to rush into showing as much information as we could and then asking for feedback.

If it turns out it is no big deal after all we can adjust for the future but people need answers now to build their armies.