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Sad to see so many people using this for their own personal agendas to make the game easier for them .

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Sad to see so many people using this for their own personal agendas to make the game easier for them .

Why is making the game easier to play in a competitive environment sad?

Easier for you is not easier for everyone else.

Yeah Dozer, that's totally what's happening. The game is to hard for me TO's! Make it easier!

Good TOs do indeed, hence why their events thrive. They are good listeners.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Sad to see so many people using this for their own personal agendas to make the game easier for them .

Yes, heaven forbid that people should give their opinion on what they prefer, when asked what they prefer...

 morgendonner wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I think people are honestly over complicating it. Treat Escalation like Planetstrike or Cities of Death. It's something we've done before so just do it again.

Ban "Formation" dataslates. New units that slot into the army are fine but Formations are a little silly, even if we only have two to go one and one isn't bad and it will cause me to still not have flyers that are good for my DA's or SW.

Those two things are enough to keep us where we are gameplay wise. Then if you wanna shift the 2++ re-roll you can do that too which I personally think would increase the enjoyment of tournaments for the average gamer.

100% with everything Hulksmash says right here.

I'm right there with the both of you. In fact - that's how I treat it

Toss me in with the group quoting and agreeing with Hulk's above post, as well.

Another on the Hulksmash bandwagon.

The only difference, this time I will *not* buy the book.

My TO banned list:
the reroll-able 2++. I can easily agree to a 2+, 3+ or even 2+, 4+ House Ruling.

How 'vested am I in this?
I just got a (unopended!) "Windrider" Apoc box of jetbikes, and I'm going to slap 'em together for next week's monthly tourney, to see if the Baron/JetSeer is really so broken. I mean, hey, if *I* win with it, then yeah, it's broken.

However, if I lose 2 outta 3 games, like normal, then the rest of the Internet can relax and finally accept that good generals win games, not their broken lists.

So those dataslates specifically state that you can add these to ANY army outside of ANY FOC?

 Fattimus_maximus wrote:
So those dataslates specifically state that you can add these to ANY army outside of ANY FOC?

Not all of the dataslates but the Tau Formation can be in anything that it could ally with.

Also I predict void shield shenanigans becoming a thing. Take the formation with 3 fully upgraded void shield generators (and the fuel line thingy 'cause you have too). 340 points and you have 9 AV 12 void shields (hull points that regenerate on a 5+) to get through before you can hurt anything in the overlapping zone. You can put three units on the battlements on each generator and one in the middle of the three buildings. All 4 units are protected from shooting outside 12" by 9 void shields and have 4+ cover.

 Tarrasq wrote:

 Fattimus_maximus wrote:
So those dataslates specifically state that you can add these to ANY army outside of ANY FOC?

Not all of the dataslates but the Tau Formation can be in anything that it could ally with.

Also I predict void shield shenanigans becoming a thing. Take the formation with 3 fully upgraded void shield generators (and the fuel line thingy 'cause you have too). 340 points and you have 9 AV 12 void shields (hull points that regenerate on a 5+) to get through before you can hurt anything in the overlapping zone. You can put three units on the battlements on each generator and one in the middle of the three buildings. All 4 units are protected from shooting outside 12" by 9 void shields and have 4+ cover.

Well yea! Where else am I supposed to put my tau firebase?

A quick point about using Lords of War in tournaments: After reading through Escalation I think the only lord of war that is a real game breaker is the Revenant Titan. Additionally, I think that Lords of War are not the problem, Strength D is the problem, and again, mainly just on the Revenant, since it has 4 D shots.

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/12/08/were-not-prepared-to-repel-firepower-of-that-magnitude/

Just wrote an editorial on that topic for anyone interested.

 Reecius wrote:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/12/08/were-not-prepared-to-repel-firepower-of-that-magnitude/

Just wrote an editorial on that topic for anyone interested.

That's a good read, thanks for posting it.

So even GW aren't sure if it's a supplement or an expansion, apparently...

My exact quote to the same picture on the N&R tyranid thread.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"We haven't read Escalation yet".

Said Games Workshop.

Well it is dated December 2nd, so it is a possibility warhammer world staff didn't get their hands on it back then.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it is also warhammer world staff, no the writers...

 insaniak wrote:
So even GW aren't sure if it's a supplement or an expansion, apparently...

The Warhammer World guys seem less informed about GW products than most forum goers to be honest.

Reece,
I'd prefer to play in a tournament that only allows core codices w/allies. I'd also like to see what I call 'pure allies', meaning that characters and independent characters are prevented from joining units from the allied codex.

In the big picture, though... I think that we are at the age of multiple formats (much like Magic: The Gathering). For example, there will be 4 different formats used on the 2014 MTG Pro Tour.

Anpu-adom wrote:
Reece,
I'd prefer to play in a tournament that only allows core codices w/allies. I'd also like to see what I call 'pure allies', meaning that characters and independent characters are prevented from joining units from the allied codex.

I think that would go a long way towards 'fixing' allies... remove the allies matrix completely, allow anyone to ally with anyone else, but ALL allies count as Desperate Allies.

 insaniak wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:
Reece,
I'd prefer to play in a tournament that only allows core codices w/allies. I'd also like to see what I call 'pure allies', meaning that characters and independent characters are prevented from joining units from the allied codex.

I think that would go a long way towards 'fixing' allies... remove the allies matrix completely, allow anyone to ally with anyone else, but ALL allies count as Desperate Allies.

I hadn't thought of that... all allies are desperate, but it would indeed fix most of the aggravating interactions.

Back to the idea of pro-tour, what's to stop organizers from running the first day of the GT in one format and the second day (or even just the top bracket) in a second format? An example would be to run day 1 as "Pure Allies"; the majority of your judges can focus on the simpler environment. Lists for the second format are due 1 hour after the top bracket are announced. Top bracket can be one format (more points, longer games, forgeworld, escalation, etc) with more experienced judges, while the other brackets can be any format or even separate tournaments (nova-style).

Why would one SM chapter treat another as a desperate ally?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Why would one SM chapter treat another as a desperate ally?

Because they all have their own private agendas, and there tends to be not a lot of trust between them. They all nominally work for the same Imperium, but very much do so in their own time and their own way.

Keep in mind that 'desperate ally' is just the tag that GW have chosen to apply to a level of alliance in which characters can't lead their ally's units, allied units aren't affected by each other's special rules, and the tag-along detachment doesn't count as scoring. There is nothing inherent to that list that doesn't fit two Marine Chapters sharing a battlefield.

@RiTides,

Thanks!

@Anpu

Duly noted, and looking at the various poll results, you are not alone in that opinion.

 insaniak wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Why would one SM chapter treat another as a desperate ally?

Because they all have their own private agendas, and there tends to be not a lot of trust between them. They all nominally work for the same Imperium, but very much do so in their own time and their own way.

Keep in mind that 'desperate ally' is just the tag that GW have chosen to apply to a level of alliance in which characters can't lead their ally's units, allied units aren't affected by each other's special rules, and the tag-along detachment doesn't count as scoring. There is nothing inherent to that list that doesn't fit two Marine Chapters sharing a battlefield.

In the new codex they can ally without using the matrix from the rulebook though. Just saying...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
In the new codex they can ally without using the matrix from the rulebook though. Just saying...

That wouldn't change. They would just count as Desperate Allies.

 insaniak wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
In the new codex they can ally without using the matrix from the rulebook though. Just saying...

That wouldn't change. They would just count as Desperate Allies.

seeing many of these now. Not sure what the benefit of going all the way down to DA would be. I lean twards a less harsher/subtle Allies of Convenience. Lets them operate in conjunction without a negative. However it removes the combos present and future. Unfortunatly all of these polls seem to want to ignore this option...

The whole problem started with allies and flyers. We accepted them though as an alternative more complex way of playing. We accepted supplements as they are a different view for each codex. More opportunities and stuff to use. We accepted the dataslates. Personally as we ve seen so little about them, I don't find them broken. And now we see the try of a company to grab even more money and they try to accomplish that by simply ignoring its customers. I say let's make the decision, as Reecius started it. We don't have to let this game die due to the ignorance of GW.

Reecius,

I bought a ticket and a pass today (before I saw the post). I had never seen what these weapons did until your report. It's pretty disappointing overall. I see that you aren't planning on letting them in the LVO, I'm just disappointed in the newest GW business model. It's not really a "game" anymore. It's like Yu-Gi-Oh for people with jobs and more disposable income. Why bother playing when you can just look at a list and surrender. Just expressing my disappointment not with you guys... just the loss of this game.

DrG