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 Mythra wrote:
Thanks Insaniak maybe he is right I am in looney land. Well not like he was masking any argument but calling me crazy anyhow.

Ok then my store and everyone I know plays it that it is 1 hit. No one even proposed it be played other wise and that is why it surprises this is so close.

I acctually did propose how to play it fairly. Not my fault you ignored my post.


Proposal being:

On a blast hit vs a void shield, the shield takes either d6/d3 (d6 for large blast, d3 for small blast) hits, or half of the hits that would have been inflicted on the unit under it, whichever is the greater amount.

example: Large blast scores 8 hits. Shooting player rolls a d6 and gets a 3. 4 (half of the total hits) is greater than 3 so the shield takes 4 hits.


This is of course a house rule but it is the most fair way to play it.

Mywik,
I think they can still be Wonderful for protecting infantry, even infantry blobs, but just not something one can start to hold as a guarantee when facing any weapon strength 7 or greater. Anything with Frag in it's name, quite a few anti-Infantry weapons designed to blanket a large field and even a few 'explosive warhead' type meant for Mid-Toughness Units or as 'more accurate' Light Vehicle weapons for low BS armies are weapons that quickly come to mind. All those are rendered as less effective against blobs hiding under the shield, and these are all weapons that where designed specifically for taking out those sort of blob armies. Anything under a certain strength is as low as 0% effective, which includes nearly everything with frag in it's name and most of the anti-infantry specialty weapons, and even the standard 'anti-vehicle' strength is only 33% effective at inflicting 1 point off the shield. Even tightly packed, heavy horde units, will still see mid-high level Blast Weapons dropping the number of hits from 'a few' to 'not as bad as a few' before the shield winks out, even large blast markers are not going to hit every model in a 30 man squad.

It is only around strength 8-10 that one find Blast Marker weapons that seriously decrease the usability of the shield to 'why bother having one' levels of disappointment. However given that the high strength weapons are designed to be a threat to squadrons of vehicles, vaporize entire fields of the battlefield and otherwise be a focused and serious threat to Terminator-equivalent units I have to ask one question: Is the fact the shield fails to be guaranteed protection against "Anti-Everything" types of Blast Weapons really that much of a loss when, for how point effective it is, one still gain quite a lot of benefits for having one in the situations where one is already not facing oh-my-god levels of destruction?

If we're proposing rules:

"Models within 12" recieve a 5+ invulnerable save from shooting attacks, even against Str. D weapons"

Void shields also (much like embarked fortifications) completely nullify grav weaponry.

I find this pretty unfair.

RAW you can hit and wound with grav, which then moves to the shield. Since grav weapons deal no glances or pens, the shield completely negates their effect.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Void shields also (much like embarked fortifications) completely nullify grav weaponry.

I find this pretty unfair.

RAW you can hit and wound with grav, which then moves to the shield. Since grav weapons deal no glances or pens, the shield completely negates their effect.

I don't even KNOW what the RAI there would be...

 Jimsolo wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Void shields also (much like embarked fortifications) completely nullify grav weaponry.

I find this pretty unfair.

RAW you can hit and wound with grav, which then moves to the shield. Since grav weapons deal no glances or pens, the shield completely negates their effect.

I don't even KNOW what the RAI there would be...

been thinking about that myself and cannot think of anything that would even remotely come to being palatable or fair. unless they FAQ grav weapons to cause specifically a pen based result with a fixed damage output (only real one but it then puts gets rid of my own opinion of intentional working on vehicles not having cover)

It would be reasonable for me to say that the Immobilized result from a '6' would be enough to collapse the Void Shield.

It also seems reasonable that they wouldn't work on a Void Shield. (Since the force shield has no mass.)

I dunno.

I'm more inclined for them not to work tbh, for the simple reason that as you point out, the shield has no mass for the gravitational effect to work on.

but meh, its moot with regards to the original topic and they could only function under a house rule (I dislike house rules as a rule since they breed bad habbits)

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Once as the rules say for each shooting attack, if you fire one blast that is one shooting attack.

Except that's not what the rules say.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield." Pretty sure the rule says each shooting attack, I don't care if you fire a blast, it's still one shooting attack.

if I have a Tyrranofex fire its fleshborer hive, 20 shots at a unit of 10 tac marines sitting inside a void shield, and it hits 10 times. Did it score 1 hit or 10 hits? I think it scored 10 hits. 1 shooting attack =/= 1 hit. and the conversive 1 hit =/= 1 shooting attack. The only time that works is if only 1 model is hit from 1 hit, then and only then is 1 shooting attack = 1 hit.

If a Void Shield generator was a power strip connected to a wall socket, and that strip had 10 slots for sockets...

lets imagine each socket is 1 model if it has something plugged in.

Each thing plugged in takes 100w

Now if I plug 1 thing in its 100w

if I plug 10 things in its 1000w

If more gets hit it taxes the system more because its protecting more / powering more.

Despite HIPI, this thread looks like people are tying to push HYWPI into the how it should work, and some peoples HYWPI is based on sillyness and them wanting it to work a certain way not them thinking it should work a certain way or even taking the RAW to think about how it should work for their HYWPI.

blaktoof wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Once as the rules say for each shooting attack, if you fire one blast that is one shooting attack.

Except that's not what the rules say.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield." Pretty sure the rule says each shooting attack, I don't care if you fire a blast, it's still one shooting attack.

if I have a Tyrranofex fire its fleshborer hive, 20 shots at a unit of 10 tac marines sitting inside a void shield, and it hits 10 times. Did it score 1 hit or 10 hits? I think it scored 10 hits. 1 shooting attack =/= 1 hit. and the conversive 1 hit =/= 1 shooting attack. The only time that works is if only 1 model is hit from 1 hit, then and only then is 1 shooting attack = 1 hit.

If a Void Shield generator was a power strip connected to a wall socket, and that strip had 10 slots for sockets...

lets imagine each socket is 1 model if it has something plugged in.

Each thing plugged in takes 100w

Now if I plug 1 thing in its 100w

if I plug 10 things in its 1000w

If more gets hit it taxes the system more because its protecting more / powering more.

Despite HIPI, this thread looks like people are tying to push HYWPI into the how it should work, and some peoples HYWPI is based on sillyness and them wanting it to work a certain way not them thinking it should work a certain way or even taking the RAW to think about how it should work for their HYWPI.

I disagree with your assumption that it takes more power for a force field to work because more people are standing under it.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I
It also seems reasonable that they wouldn't work on a Void Shield. (Since the force shield has no mass.)

That's what I'd go with.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I
It also seems reasonable that they wouldn't work on a Void Shield. (Since the force shield has no mass.)

That's what I'd go with.

Yeah, especially as Grav weapons have no effect against buildings (which are similar to vehicles), clearly there is precedent for them only affecting vehicles when they say how they affect vehicles.

I think I really dislike Voids or D in regular games. We have already agreed at the local store not to use D or more than 1 void building.

Isen't this one pretty easy?

You don't get 10 hits on the unit because you essentially don't hit the unit. you hit the void shield. It's fine if people want to house rule it otherwise, but I'd say the rules are pretty clear on how this works.

 Mythra wrote:
I think I really dislike Voids or D in regular games. We have already agreed at the local store not to use D or more than 1 void building.

something your entitled to but you shouldn't put off new visitors because they want to play with their new shiny toys with big guns.

FunJohn wrote:
Isen't this one pretty easy?

You don't get 10 hits on the unit because you essentially don't hit the unit. you hit the void shield. It's fine if people want to house rule it otherwise, but I'd say the rules are pretty clear on how this works.

Yep, the shooting attack hits. How do you know it has hot a unit? You place the blast marker, and count how many models are underneath. That I'd the ONLY way you can determine if a blast hits

So why do you then discard those ten hits, in favour of one? You stated the rules were clear, yet failed to cite a single one.

I'd play it as D3 or D6 hits.
It's stupid to have a mechanic where the last guardsmen is more survivable than a squad of 20.

Likewise, I think the explosive force of blasts should do more than a single hit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FunJohn wrote:
Isen't this one pretty easy?

You don't get 10 hits on the unit because you essentially don't hit the unit. you hit the void shield. It's fine if people want to house rule it otherwise, but I'd say the rules are pretty clear on how this works.

Yep, the shooting attack hits. How do you know it has hot a unit? You place the blast marker, and count how many models are underneath. That I'd the ONLY way you can determine if a blast hits

So why do you then discard those ten hits, in favour of one? You stated the rules were clear, yet failed to cite a single one.

Leaving the specifics of Void Shields for a moment the key question is IMO :

How do you determine the number of hits inflicted on a unit if it doesn't hit the unit but hits something else instead?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FunJohn wrote:
Isen't this one pretty easy?

You don't get 10 hits on the unit because you essentially don't hit the unit. you hit the void shield. It's fine if people want to house rule it otherwise, but I'd say the rules are pretty clear on how this works.

Yep, the shooting attack hits. How do you know it has hot a unit? You place the blast marker, and count how many models are underneath. That I'd the ONLY way you can determine if a blast hits

So why do you then discard those ten hits, in favour of one? You stated the rules were clear, yet failed to cite a single one.

Each blast or template is a single shooting attack, and a shield/field can only be hit once per shooting attack.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FunJohn wrote:
Isen't this one pretty easy?

You don't get 10 hits on the unit because you essentially don't hit the unit. you hit the void shield. It's fine if people want to house rule it otherwise, but I'd say the rules are pretty clear on how this works.

Yep, the shooting attack hits. How do you know it has hot a unit? You place the blast marker, and count how many models are underneath. That I'd the ONLY way you can determine if a blast hits

So why do you then discard those ten hits, in favour of one? You stated the rules were clear, yet failed to cite a single one.

Each blast or template is a single shooting attack, and a shield/field can only be hit once per shooting attack.

The Fleshborer Hive is an Assault 20 weapon. Since it is a single shooting attack does that mean it can only hit the shield once?

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FunJohn wrote:
Isen't this one pretty easy?

You don't get 10 hits on the unit because you essentially don't hit the unit. you hit the void shield. It's fine if people want to house rule it otherwise, but I'd say the rules are pretty clear on how this works.

Yep, the shooting attack hits. How do you know it has hot a unit? You place the blast marker, and count how many models are underneath. That I'd the ONLY way you can determine if a blast hits

So why do you then discard those ten hits, in favour of one? You stated the rules were clear, yet failed to cite a single one.

Each blast or template is a single shooting attack, and a shield/field can only be hit once per shooting attack.

The Fleshborer Hive is an Assault 20 weapon. Since it is a single shooting attack does that mean it can only hit the shield once?

No, but there's a clear difference. The Assault 20 weapon has twenty shots, but a blast only has one shot (which can generate multiple hits). It seems like there's a pretty distinct difference between the two.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FunJohn wrote:
Isen't this one pretty easy?

You don't get 10 hits on the unit because you essentially don't hit the unit. you hit the void shield. It's fine if people want to house rule it otherwise, but I'd say the rules are pretty clear on how this works.

Yep, the shooting attack hits. How do you know it has hot a unit? You place the blast marker, and count how many models are underneath. That I'd the ONLY way you can determine if a blast hits

So why do you then discard those ten hits, in favour of one? You stated the rules were clear, yet failed to cite a single one.

Each blast or template is a single shooting attack, and a shield/field can only be hit once per shooting attack.

The Fleshborer Hive is an Assault 20 weapon. Since it is a single shooting attack does that mean it can only hit the shield once?

No, but there's a clear difference. The Assault 20 weapon has twenty shots, but a blast only has one shot (which can generate multiple hits). It seems like there's a pretty distinct difference between the two.

That is very much the stumbling block on this whole affair, there is a slight difference in execution between templates and other weapons, I think the wider community is able to make the leap using their understanding of the abstract nature of things.

I dunno. The responses to this thread seem to indicate a pretty even split.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I dunno. The responses to this thread seem to indicate a pretty even split.

Yeh I agree, however I don't believe that to be representative of the wider community.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FunJohn wrote:
Isen't this one pretty easy?

You don't get 10 hits on the unit because you essentially don't hit the unit. you hit the void shield. It's fine if people want to house rule it otherwise, but I'd say the rules are pretty clear on how this works.

Yep, the shooting attack hits. How do you know it has hot a unit? You place the blast marker, and count how many models are underneath. That I'd the ONLY way you can determine if a blast hits

So why do you then discard those ten hits, in favour of one? You stated the rules were clear, yet failed to cite a single one.

Each blast or template is a single shooting attack, and a shield/field can only be hit once per shooting attack.

The Fleshborer Hive is an Assault 20 weapon. Since it is a single shooting attack does that mean it can only hit the shield once?

No, but there's a clear difference. The Assault 20 weapon has twenty shots, but a blast only has one shot (which can generate multiple hits). It seems like there's a pretty distinct difference between the two.

But do the rules say that each shot hits the shield, or that the shooting attack hits the shield?

Rorschach9 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
10. Raw and hywpi

Not RAW, and not how you should play it.

Here is RAW proof how shields work.



If you want to ask more questions, let me know.

That is a screen grab from a TV show and has absolutely nothing to do with Void Shields or the rules for 40k. Stop trying to claim it is "proof" of anything.

Lighten up man, it's intended as a joke I hope haha

I'd say 10 too, otherwise it gets too confusing to me

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I dunno. The responses to this thread seem to indicate a pretty even split.

Yeh I agree, however I don't believe that to be representative of the wider community.

So are you saying that Dakka is a poor representative of the 40k community? That the poll is poorly constructed? Or that people are not responding honestly in the poll/discussion? If it's the first, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. If it's the second, then please suggest how it could be constructed better. If it's the third, then I don't really see a way to help or even measure that.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FunJohn wrote:
Isen't this one pretty easy?

You don't get 10 hits on the unit because you essentially don't hit the unit. you hit the void shield. It's fine if people want to house rule it otherwise, but I'd say the rules are pretty clear on how this works.

Yep, the shooting attack hits. How do you know it has hot a unit? You place the blast marker, and count how many models are underneath. That I'd the ONLY way you can determine if a blast hits

So why do you then discard those ten hits, in favour of one? You stated the rules were clear, yet failed to cite a single one.

Each blast or template is a single shooting attack, and a shield/field can only be hit once per shooting attack.

Citation required.
The new Knights have Heavy 2 blast weapons. Is that 2 separate shooting attacks? Please show rules evidence.

Well, the one blast marker is not a variable number of shooting attacks.

it is a single shooting attack.

If you disagree please cite rules that say a vindicator that hits more than one enemy model is more than one shooting attack.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Well, the one blast marker is not a variable number of shooting attacks.

it is a single shooting attack.

If you disagree please cite rules that say a vindicator that hits more than one enemy model is more than one shooting attack.

cite the rule that stipulates one shot = one hit.

p6, templates flat out shows you to be incorrect

template weapons cause a number of hits = to the number of models underneath them, placing a template is in lieu of rolling 'to hit dice' is it not a replacement for anything other than that, also note that void shields are not models and thus a shield, not having been classified as such, is immune to blast weapons, which frankly is stupid.

next point is to lok at the timing, the shield cannot intercept the attack until after the number of hits of the shooting attack has been generated, as such the roll to hit/placement of the template (and subsiquant calculation of the number of hits) has already happened and the number of hits that are to be placed on the unit transfer over to the shield, there are also no rules that permit you to re-calculate the number of hits you have scored.

an assualt 20 weapon that rolls 20 successful hits is no iferent than a blast weapon covering 20 models, both have 20 hits and both transfer 20 hits to the shield.

the fact that the hits go onto a shield has no bearing on the initial attack, otherwise the rule would be written, 'when a unit is targetted for a shooting attack and the attack originates outside of 12" from the project void shield source, the target is instead one of the projected void shields."