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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:


That's my rebuttal because it is no more ridiculous than your own suggestion when compared to what will actually happen. GW has been doing multiple Marine codices since the beginning, there is absolutely no reason to expect them to do anything else. Yet whenever there is a codex conversation someone like you pops up and mentions the all-in-one marine codex just to stir the pot. Its not going to happen, at least not in this edition, so why are you even bothering if not to troll?

GW also rolled in the BT codex in a move I'm sure a lot of people weren't expecting until the rumours started circulating. Besides, just because something has been, doesn't mean it always will be. Catachans had their own codex way back.

I'm not stirring the pot. I'm genuinely contributing what I'd want in a thread about wishlisting. I'm also not trolling, and I'd ask you not accuse me of such. Having a differing opinion or wanting something you don't is not a grounds to attack someone. If you don't like what I'm saying, you're not forced to respond.

Yes, I know BT were rolled in but the BT only had their own codex for one edition whereas Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have been separate for as long as there have even been codices. Everyone in this thread already knows that there will be a new Blood Angels codex later this year. It serves no purpose to even bring it up, especially since it is ALWAYS brought up in these threads and it never goes well. If you don't want to be accused of trolling then don't do things that will be perceived as trolling.

All of those also started as 'supplements' to the main SM codex at the time as well.

Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument about the history of every codex. My main point was that we all know there is going to be a Blood Angels codex for this edition, and that this thread is about what we want to see in it. Bringing up the idea of rolling it into C:SM is not on topic, nor is it going to happen in this edition, so why bring it up?

 Orblivion wrote:


Yes, I know BT were rolled in but the BT only had their own codex for one edition whereas Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have been separate for as long as there have even been codices. Everyone in this thread already knows that there will be a new Blood Angels codex later this year. It serves no purpose to even bring it up, especially since it is ALWAYS brought up in these threads and it never goes well. If you don't want to be accused of trolling then don't do things that will be perceived as trolling.

What is the standard for who deserves a codex? Is it a certain number of editions in print? Catachans started out as their own codex, so technically they've always been their own codex until they were rolled in. It just happened years ago, that's all.

If it serves no purpose to discuss what I want in a thread about people want from BA in 6th, then why does it serve a purpose to even discuss if people want new units, or points cost changes, or new wargear? Why is your idea of what you want better than what I want? Why are you considering what I want to be trolling?

All I see from you is a difference in perspective, only I don't accuse you of trolling. You, however, are accusing me of trolling for wanting something different than what you want.

By the way, it only gets brought up in marine codex wishlisting dicsussions. It just so happens there are people who wish all the marines to be in one codex for numerous reasons. It can be accomplished without losing the 'feel' of the chapter, and its well within the realms of possibility.

I think a book like Clan: Raukaan would be acceptable as well.

Mechanistically speaking, I'm still stumped as to what real "fixes" are possible. Meqs are bad in 6th and assault is bad. So I don't see a lot of daylight for meqs who assault.

 Orblivion wrote:

Yes, I know BT were rolled in but the BT only had their own codex for one edition whereas Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have been separate for as long as there have even been codices.

I'm not going to be foolish and debate anything about any chapter being rolled back into the Space Marine codex. I'm all for variety in 40k.

However, this quoted statement isn't true. The Black Templars have been separate from the Space Marine Codex since 3rd Edition. They were part of the Armegeddon Codex that came out in 2000 (3rd edition). This makes it 3 editions that they were separate (3rd, 4th, 5th). The first Space Wolves Codex came out in second edition, and the first Blood Angels Codex was also in 2nd edition (combined with Dark Angels at the time). So, your 3 examples are exactly 1 edition older. Technically, the Blood Angels and Dark Angels didn't each have their own Codex until 3rd edition, same as Black Templars, if we're being pedantic.

Linky

Perhaps it would be wise for someone to make a "Why should there be more than one codex for Marine chapters?" post so that threads like this don't turn into what this has turned into.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Perhaps it would be wise for someone to make a "Why should there be more than one codex for Marine chapters?" post so that threads like this don't turn into what this has turned into.

Seconded

sorry, i lost you at page 2...
however what i would love in a new codex would be something to make BA player play with BA, and not with a fancy overpriced, les option red coloured space marine...

1) point cost adjustment;
2) adding some options (like flakk missile for ML and adding field for libby or artificier armour for generic HQ)
those 2 are probably the only thing we will ever get...

3) something to bring ASM to charge range. Assault from DoA could be a nice addiction; even giving assault veichle to low priced veichle, or pod
or something to survive until assault range (ie a force field, thatn FNP alone does'nt work and libby probably will lose his psionic powers)
4) some big tank or more resilient low price tank. Or some equipment to let rhino/razor survive past turn 2
5) more flyer, like stormtalon, price discount on stormraven, or another cool flyer unit

i'd like something to say at the world "hey, this are the SM who will go on close range and move very quick", like a faster bike (or jetbike?), or like; a quick moving dreadnaught, or even a low price low level little flyer like infantry with flying jump pack... or make a "super jump pack" that let ASM fly and work like a flying unit or something similar... so you can use winged jump pack for something more than just being cool (of course you would need to pay extra cost, and sanguinary guard would be even more priced but infinitely more useful...)

And of course make a decent model for Mephiston: he's as ugly as powerful at the moment. Also, make Mephiston a MC and give him an invulnerable save as well
adding some MC or anti-MC unit could be nice, but i don't whant grav cent, i would like something more BA and less SM-with-red-armor
also, make Sanguinor useful and useable (he too could be a MC... and he also could have a new model, 'cause at the moment is a bit ugly too...)

howver, you know we would never be satisfied and new codex would let us all disappointed... x_x

We don't need any new units. I just want the existing ones to be good.
Besides the point drop something like:

> Cheaper Jump Packs for DC
> Either Inv save for Sanguinary Guard or make Glaive Encarmine an actually good weapon.
> Storm Talon maybe?
> Overall improvements to named characters. Or just drop half of them, I don't know.


No, I don't want to have Gravy-guns or Centurions.
And please, don't mess with the current BA army rules.

A new model for Sanguinary Priest and maybe new box for Assault Marines.

That's all I ask for.

I'm sure BA will get changes: vanilla marines lost combat tactics. I don't care of descent of angels goes; it's bad anyway.

Page 1 end with increasingly boring and useless discussion if BA should have their own codex.

Im jumping right to Page 4 hoping to more interesting topic...

...nope, still topic of codex. Well played Dakka, well played...

Okay then. Let's get super serious: would you design this to survive Taudar firepower or not? If so, how do you do this with T4 models?

Give jumping infantry jink saves.

each-uisge wrote:

i'd like something to say at the world "hey, this are the SM who will go on close range and move very quick", like a faster bike (or jetbike?), or like; a quick moving dreadnaught, or even a low price low level little flyer like infantry with flying jump pack... or make a "super jump pack" that let ASM fly and work like a flying unit or something similar... so you can use winged jump pack for something more than just being cool (of course you would need to pay extra cost, and sanguinary guard would be even more priced but infinitely more useful...)

I'm making a fandex chapter that has flying devastators. Move like a FMC, 1 auto-dies any time a grounding test is failed, and a failed Ld check will send them packing.
The 25 Sanguinary guard on my shelf are smiling at the thought of them all being flyers. I would run that army in a heartbeat.

And of course make a decent model for Mephiston: he's as ugly as powerful at the moment. Also, make Mephiston a MC and give him an invulnerable save as well
adding some MC or anti-MC unit could be nice, but i don't whant grav cent, i would like something more BA and less SM-with-red-armor
also, make Sanguinor useful and useable (he too could be a MC... and he also could have a new model, 'cause at the moment is a bit ugly too...)

Mephy doesn't need much. He does need either an AP2 weapon/artifact or a points drop to reflect that nerf from 6th. He also needs his powers to stay the same, or at the very least guarantee wings, because moving 6" when you're a one model melee unit is an epic fail. I don't think he needs an invuln though. That's asking a bit much, especially if you want an iron halo or storm shield.

I said earlier in the thread that Sangy could be a FMC though. Could also cost quite a bit less.

howver, you know we would never be satisfied and new codex would let us all disappointed... x_x

My biggest fear is major nerfage or outright removal of some of the models I already have. And I have at least one of everything in the codex. So if I got handed a hardback book that just had a reprint of 5th with some lower point costs in line with the other marines, I'd feel sorta relieved, but still disappointed.

For BA speed is their armour. They need to spend less time on the board before getting into a charge. This means lots of jump, lots of bikes, lots fast transports and lots of deep strike.

The goal should be an army that gets a significant portion of its forces stuck in on T2 (or even T1 if you're going second and your opponent deploys well forwards).

I like DofA, I wish more Tau units had something similar, but I can also see the problem behind it. The units with DofA come in as small groups rather than a singular force. This gives an opponent a chance to target them individually with the bulk of his army and clean their clocks.

So something where DofA works like drop pods and you can synchronize a mass drop would be ideal. This floods the opponent with too many targets to deal with at once and allows you to more or less garuntee that some of your force will be close enough on the next turn to use their jetpacks and get the Hammer of Wrath attack that Blood Angels need to score early kills with.

Actually, yeah, that would be a good one, BA always get to use their jump packs to move and to charge. I think that would help them out huge. It increases the range at which they can assault considerably and it gives them a free automatic hit at initiative 10. Add in Furious Charge and Rage for the Red Thirst and you have a pretty nasty unit off the charge.

Anyway, there's a couple of ideas that could make BA relevant again that fit the feel I've always gotten from them when I've faced them.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay then. Let's get super serious: would you design this to survive Taudar firepower or not? If so, how do you do this with T4 models?

I think one of the biggest issues marines face is that s6 and higher treats them like gretchin/ratlings. There's no statistical difference.

Therefore, if I could, I would add the following rule to the base rules, and would be faq'd to apply to all "marine" models. IE not sisters, guard, inquisition or the like, just the boys with the gene-seeds. This WOULD include chaos marines:

-Closer to monster than man (name WIP): Due to the intense amount of alterations, the astartes' bodies are much better equipped to handle extreme damage that would place other races in mortal peril. As long as all models in the unit possess this special rule, any roll to wound made against a model with this rule automatically fails to wound on a roll of 2, in addition to the normal automatic failure of rolling a 1.

Just an extra 17% chance for each guy to survive battle cannons, ion accelerators, plasma and the like might give the marines in general, including the heretic ones, the push they need to compete.

I would just like them to become more competitive with other more rounded off chapters like dark angels. I'm not one to know much about point systems or match skills but hearing from others sometimes feel that blood angels are a bit handicapped during battles when it's points for points. I'm not sure on this as I don't play just from I'm hearing from others

All blood angel units have a charge range of 6 +D6.

Among other changes.

BA suffer from being an edition overpriced and paying for a lot of great close combat ability in an edition that strongly favours shooting. The result is a serious point inefficiency. A smal adjustment to bring them in line, plus some ability to make all that close combat ability pay off will make them as nasty as they were in 5th.

Maybe making Decent of Angels work like Deathwing Assault.
1] You decide what are going to use it.
2] They all come in on Turn One or Two, the Blood Angels Choice.
I would love to see Blood Angles being able to Assault out of Reserves, but I don’t think that is going to happen.

I could see them getting the Double Jump Pack Move and Hit and Run.

It would also be nice if their Furious Charge Strength Bonus on the Hammer of Wrath Attack.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
All blood angel units have a charge range of 6 +D6.

Among other changes.

Being always able to use their jetpacks on the charge would take care of range issues, give them Hammer of Wrath and fit the flavour of the army more IMHO.

Jefffar wrote:
For BA speed is their armour. They need to spend less time on the board before getting into a charge. This means lots of jump, lots of bikes, lots fast transports and lots of deep strike.

The goal should be an army that gets a significant portion of its forces stuck in on T2 (or even T1 if you're going second and your opponent deploys well forwards).

I like DofA, I wish more Tau units had something similar, but I can also see the problem behind it. The units with DofA come in as small groups rather than a singular force. This gives an opponent a chance to target them individually with the bulk of his army and clean their clocks.

So something where DofA works like drop pods and you can synchronize a mass drop would be ideal. This floods the opponent with too many targets to deal with at once and allows you to more or less garuntee that some of your force will be close enough on the next turn to use their jetpacks and get the Hammer of Wrath attack that Blood Angels need to score early kills with.

Actually, yeah, that would be a good one, BA always get to use their jump packs to move and to charge. I think that would help them out huge. It increases the range at which they can assault considerably and it gives them a free automatic hit at initiative 10. Add in Furious Charge and Rage for the Red Thirst and you have a pretty nasty unit off the charge.

Anyway, there's a couple of ideas that could make BA relevant again that fit the feel I've always gotten from them when I've faced them.

I would hope we could get by without stealing the raven guard's tactic out from under them. I'm of the belief that, if we had that, we'd essentially be raven guard +1. (Or minus one if our point costs stay hiked up.)

I think a better method (and I said part of this earlier in a long list) is to allow units full of DoA jump packers to declare themselves part of the drop pod count during deployment. So if you have 3 JP assault squads and 2 sternguard pods, you could bring in 3 of those units turn 1.

Another interesting chapter strategy might be the ability to start rolling for reserves on turn 1, and auto-get turn 3, a round earlier than other armies.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Maybe making Decent of Angels work like Deathwing Assault.
1] You decide what are going to use it.
2] They all come in on Turn One or Two, the Blood Angels Choice.
I would love to see Blood Angles being able to Assault out of Reserves, but I don’t think that is going to happen.

I could see them getting the Double Jump Pack Move and Hit and Run.

It would also be nice if their Furious Charge Strength Bonus on the Hammer of Wrath Attack.

Pretty much. I doubt were going to see assault off of reserves (and definitely not off of deep strike) any time soon. This edition wants folks to have a chance to defend themselves for at least 1 turn before that Death Star crashes into their lines. I can't help but agree with this principle because the alternative just isn't very fun as it creates even worse auto-wins than any leaf blower/taudar abomination.

Jefffar wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Maybe making Decent of Angels work like Deathwing Assault.
1] You decide what are going to use it.
2] They all come in on Turn One or Two, the Blood Angels Choice.
I would love to see Blood Angles being able to Assault out of Reserves, but I don’t think that is going to happen.

I could see them getting the Double Jump Pack Move and Hit and Run.

It would also be nice if their Furious Charge Strength Bonus on the Hammer of Wrath Attack.

Pretty much. I doubt were going to see assault off of reserves (and definitely not off of deep strike) any time soon. This edition wants folks to have a chance to defend themselves for at least 1 turn before that Death Star crashes into their lines. I can't help but agree with this principle because the alternative just isn't very fun as it creates even worse auto-wins than any leaf blower/taudar abomination.

You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

And having all of your backfield units being taken out in one turn without being able to defend yourself is any better?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

And having all of your backfield units being taken out in one turn without being able to defend yourself is any better?

Absolutely not, what I want to know is why it's OK for shooting to be able to do this but unfathomable for melee to do the same.

It still takes me a few turns to shoot an opponent off the table under the best of circumstances. A table with suitable amounts of terrain and some good play will still let my opponent have the chance to force me to make some hard choices about trying to shoot some more or avoiding assaults.

On the other hand, if units could assault out of deep strike, Tau's only shooting would be overwatch during their opponents first assault phase. After that its just rolling dice until the Tau are gone. Ditto guard. Eldar at least might make a go of it still.

This is why I want to see BA be able to get into assault sooner, but not instantly. If they are stuck in the firelane too long, they can't do anything. If they get a free pass into base to base, then the other guy can't do anything. There needs to be a balance point to keep it interesting.

Honestly I'd be all for assaulting out of reserves. I'm doing my best to be unbiased about it, I'll leave it to you guys to decide whether or not I succeeded.

With the addition of overwatch and interceptor, it really wouldn't be OP. Granted those are only snapshots, but compared to dedicated shooty units who can arrive via deep strike even assaulting out of deep strike would be at a disadvantage.

A unit that wants to shoot out of deep strike only has to worry about scatter and maybe interceptor. They can fire away all they want, despite the "disorientation" that units suffer from the act of deep striking. They also don't have to worry about return fire during their own turn. By comparison, a unit that wants to assault out of deep strike has to worry about scatter, maybe interceptor, charge range, and overwatch. And the combat works both ways, the assaulting unit will usually take some wounds in return.

There are plenty of shooty units that can do more damage out of deep strike than a squad of assault marines could achieve, so why not give a limited number of BA units assault from deep strike?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

And having all of your backfield units being taken out in one turn without being able to defend yourself is any better?

Absolutely not, what I want to know is why it's OK for shooting to be able to do this but unfathomable for melee to do the same.

Well back in 5th I used to my Wolf Scout to clean out backfields.
>Arrive Shoot up A Command or Devastator Squad and then Assault it usually taking out it out in the 2nd turn of Combat, then it was off to take down another.
>3 Swarms Genestealers Yingmalls coming out of reserve and taking out 3 units in one turn without a chance of defending yourself.

Yes that was fun times.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:
Honestly I'd be all for assaulting out of reserves. I'm doing my best to be unbiased about it, I'll leave it to you guys to decide whether or not I succeeded.

With the addition of overwatch and interceptor, it really wouldn't be OP. Granted those are only snapshots, but compared to dedicated shooty units who can arrive via deep strike even assaulting out of deep strike would be at a disadvantage.

A unit that wants to shoot out of deep strike only has to worry about scatter and maybe interceptor. They can fire away all they want, despite the "disorientation" that units suffer from the act of deep striking. They also don't have to worry about return fire during their own turn. By comparison, a unit that wants to assault out of deep strike has to worry about scatter, maybe interceptor, charge range, and overwatch. And the combat works both ways, the assaulting unit will usually take some wounds in return.

There are plenty of shooty units that can do more damage out of deep strike than a squad of assault marines could achieve, so why not give a limited number of BA units assault from deep strike?

To br Honest I would love to see Blood Angel Vanguard Vets keep that even though it has been my bane for years. I don't think it is going to happen, but I hope they get to keep it.

Interceptor isn't as common as you'd think and to be honest, if I am going against Tau I'd rather face interceptor from a unit than it being able to shoot me wih all sorts of Markerlight buffs in its shooting phase.

Overwatch rarely does anything, of course there is the exception of the Tau massed overwatch, but there are still counters to that (hint, attack with multiple units at once).

And deep strike disorientation does apply to shooting, the unit counts as having moved, which restricts some weapons to snap shooting and others to not firing at all.

The thing is, once an assault starts, one or more units will die. Shooting can rarely match this level of finality between two units. Even with Tau I have to focus fire a large portion of my army on the target if I want it dead. Just a single unit of assault troops in my gunlines garuntees I'm going to be losing a least a unit a turn to it.

So which is more potent, an entire army killing a unit a turn or a single unit killing a unit a turn?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

And having all of your backfield units being taken out in one turn without being able to defend yourself is any better?

Absolutely not, what I want to know is why it's OK for shooting to be able to do this but unfathomable for melee to do the same.

Well back in 5th I used to my Wolf Scout to clean out backfields.
>Arrive Shoot up A Command or Devastator Squad and then Assault it usually taking out it out in the 2nd turn of Combat, then it was off to take down another.
>3 Swarms Genestealers Yingmalls coming out of reserve and taking out 3 units in one turn without a chance of defending yourself.

Yes that was fun times.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:
Honestly I'd be all for assaulting out of reserves. I'm doing my best to be unbiased about it, I'll leave it to you guys to decide whether or not I succeeded.

With the addition of overwatch and interceptor, it really wouldn't be OP. Granted those are only snapshots, but compared to dedicated shooty units who can arrive via deep strike even assaulting out of deep strike would be at a disadvantage.

A unit that wants to shoot out of deep strike only has to worry about scatter and maybe interceptor. They can fire away all they want, despite the "disorientation" that units suffer from the act of deep striking. They also don't have to worry about return fire during their own turn. By comparison, a unit that wants to assault out of deep strike has to worry about scatter, maybe interceptor, charge range, and overwatch. And the combat works both ways, the assaulting unit will usually take some wounds in return.

There are plenty of shooty units that can do more damage out of deep strike than a squad of assault marines could achieve, so why not give a limited number of BA units assault from deep strike?

To br Honest I would love to see Blood Angel Vanguard Vets keep that even though it has been my bane for years. I don't think it is going to happen, but I hope they get to keep it.

See I don't get why Blood Angels can't have something similar to these options. I mean, even if three squads of Assault Marines or Death Company do suddenly appear near a Tau gunline it isn't an auto win. Sure, there's a great chance the marines get stuck in and proceed to stop stupid commie frog faces, but they still have to get there. Just having the option to not have to run up the field in easily destroyed transports or on foot/pack would solve SO many issues with Blood Angels.

On a completely unrelated note, has anyone considered a similar setup like DA currently has? Their Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing all require different HQ choices in order for their special rules to take effect. Why not do something similar with Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and, dare I say it, Red Wing?