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I get that. Just defining what I'd consider "weak" to something, I suppose.

I think the biggest issues with Monstrous Creatures is not the MC rules themselves, but the fact we've now got ones with invulnerable saves, T6 and better, jump packs, and 5 or more wounds, and in the case of the Riptide 2+ armor save. When MCs were all just giant T5 multi-wound creatures that would ruin your day when they got in close combat, it wasn't so bad because you could still attempt to overwhelm it with small arms fire and hope it failed it's 4+ save a few times.

Adding in every single last defensive measure possible in the game to MCs made them incredibly anti-fun to play against and I think changed 40k for the worse. Ever play with 4E lists in the 6E environement against other 4E style lists? It's actually really enjoyable. Units die and nothing is super ultra omega difficult to kill so the battles feel a lot more climactic. Now we've got affordable (points wise if not IRL wise...) units that take overwhelming huge super weapons to scratch, let alone kill, that can take out giant swathes of troops in the blink of an eye.

I am kind of lucky that even though I got into this game with the DV starter box, there are so many old-school gamers in my area we play to have fun by fielding similar power level lists, rather than guys just fielding the biggest and best things because they'd rather win. If it wasn't for that, I doubt I would have spent another dime on 40k beyond that starter box.

If Riptides were T6 3+ 5W, essentially a better Exocrine, I think people would have been fine with them. T6 3+ isn't that hard to take down nowadays.

My Defiler + Forgefiend + Maulerfiend should all be MCs. Balls to the notion of them being instantly killed on random rolls of 6s while a Tardtide struts around in all its mechanical glory rocking it's T6.

BALLS to that I say. For no reason should a Riptide EVER be able to go toe to toe with a Daemon Prince and have the capabilities of instantly killing it. 1 wound is all that it takes. Sadly, because they are MCs their attacks are AP2 so that means in all likeliness it will happen as your Daemon Prince probably isnt going to push enough wounds against that Nova Shield + FNP monstrosity.

I dunno about Defilers, they still look very much like a Walker to me, but if there's anything mechanical that deserves to be called a Monstrous Creature it's the Forge/Maulerfiend.

Riptides die all the time. People dont like getting bombed but then, that can be said of several annoyingly good units. Tough 7 artillyman in a D-Cannon Battery for example. Guide it, and watch the fun.

A Riptide wounds ITSELF quite often, so its wounds, on paper, aren't as good as they look (only Plasmacutioners hurt themselves more often and no ones out to lynch plasmacutioners even though they, guided, are just awesome).

Synergies exist in a lot of armies I think the Riptide makes people mad because people SPAM them and really...when was SPAMMING ever popular with the opponent? Never. So I think the real angst comes from people not l;iking SPAMMINg more than it is the fact that the Riptides are the ones being spammed. Because with allies, you can spam Plasmacutioners and watch peoples tears roll down their cheeks while prescience fuels them with indomitable killing power. spam 12 Plasmacutioners that have Lascannons and then come talk to me about Riptides. Lol. They're either peeling the can open or wiping its contents out!

Spamming is the bigger social faux pa, not the Riptide itself.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I dunno about Defilers, they still look very much like a Walker to me, but if there's anything mechanical that deserves to be called a Monstrous Creature it's the Forge/Maulerfiend.

True, but the idea behind it is the same, it's a daemonically possessed killing machine.

 Jancoran wrote:
Riptides die all the time. People dont like getting bombed but then, that can be said of several annoyingly good units. Tough 7 artillyman in a D-Cannon Battery for example. Guide it, and watch the fun.

A Riptide wounds ITSELF quite often, so its wounds, on paper, aren't as good as they look (only Plasmacutioners hurt themselves more often and no ones out to lynch plasmacutioners even though they, guided, are just awesome.

synergies exist in a lot of armies I think the Riptide makes people mad because people SPAM them and really...when was SPAMMING ever popular with the opponent? Never. So I think the real angst comes from people not l;iking SPAMMINg more than it is the fact that the Riptides are the ones being spammed. Because with allies, you can spam Plasmacutioners and watch peoples tears roll down their cheeks while prescience fuels them with indomitable killing power. spam 12 Plasmacutioners that have Lascannons and then come talk to me about Riptides. Lol. They're either peeling the can open or wiping its contents out!

Spamming is the bigger social faux pa, not the Riptide itself.

Well said +1

That anti spam attitude in many cases is hypocritical, so one person is allowed to bring 2 or more powerful units, yet Mr Tau brings 2 riptides and gets accused of spam... now that is going to cut it I don't think...

Its always amusing to humbly blow a cocky sod out of the water with markerlights and ritpides and watch the whine rage start. Just because somebody had their ego busted in short order after they got overmatched badly

Lets face it people like taking units in multiples, 2 of something does better than one in many cases. Yet many whine when their opponent does the same as them how unsporting!

 Art_of_war wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Riptides die all the time. People dont like getting bombed but then, that can be said of several annoyingly good units. Tough 7 artillyman in a D-Cannon Battery for example. Guide it, and watch the fun.

A Riptide wounds ITSELF quite often, so its wounds, on paper, aren't as good as they look (only Plasmacutioners hurt themselves more often and no ones out to lynch plasmacutioners even though they, guided, are just awesome.

synergies exist in a lot of armies I think the Riptide makes people mad because people SPAM them and really...when was SPAMMING ever popular with the opponent? Never. So I think the real angst comes from people not l;iking SPAMMINg more than it is the fact that the Riptides are the ones being spammed. Because with allies, you can spam Plasmacutioners and watch peoples tears roll down their cheeks while prescience fuels them with indomitable killing power. spam 12 Plasmacutioners that have Lascannons and then come talk to me about Riptides. Lol. They're either peeling the can open or wiping its contents out!

Spamming is the bigger social faux pa, not the Riptide itself.

Well said +1

That anti spam attitude in many cases is hypocritical, so one person is allowed to bring 2 or more powerful units, yet Mr Tau brings 2 riptides and gets accused of spam... now that is going to cut it I don't think...

Its always amusing to humbly blow a cocky sod out of the water with markerlights and ritpides and watch the whine rage start. Just because somebody had their ego busted in short order after they got overmatched badly

Lets face it people like taking units in multiples, 2 of something does better than one in many cases. Yet many whine when their opponent does the same as them how unsporting!

Maybe people don't like playing against incredibly broken gak. Both the Serpent and riptide should not exist as they are now. PERIOD. You riptide apologists realize you are defending something that can, with a 5 point upgrade, eliminate a 200+ point unit of deepstriking terminators, prior to their own movement phase, right? There is just no talking reason with some people.

yes and it took TWO HUNRDED points to do that. And it can scatter. if you markerlight, you're spending 350-500 points to cause the death of the Terminators (buffmander, Riptide and drones).

So someone please explain to me how the issue is the RIPTIDE? a 500 point expenditure to nuke 200 points in Terminators (who can avoid that fate by simply spreading out on th drop) is hardly a "bargain". Its GREAT utility to have but do not oversimplify this into a FIVE POINT discussion because it isn't one.

Because it does that in a single turn.

The enemy's turn, no less.

You should damn well pay more than 200 points in order to oneshot a Termie squad in their own movement phase.

With Executioners etc they can at least run out of LoS, melta it to death (If Chaos termies) or the rest of the army can do it.

And they can't spread out on the drop, since running comes after interceptor.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because it does that in a single turn.

The enemy's turn, no less.

You should damn well pay more than 200 points in order to oneshot a Termie squad in their own movement phase.

On top of being virtually immune to ID and being able to hang with combat HQs in assault. Like I said, there is just no talking reason with some people.

Podded Jawspriest works, I think.

As does Flesh Gauntlet- but what's the odds for that?

Well you can instant Death a Riptide with the Hexrifle (my Dark Eldar army carries four of them).

The Hand of Darkness takes care of business on a Riptide pretty well (I take this on my Black Legion Chaos Lord). Hell, a Sorcerer can instant death it, and Biomancy is a pretty good Discipline.

Disruption Weapons can nuke the Riptide and added bonus: they will wound him whether they nuke him or not in most cases. Hooray for tough 7 Artileryman.

In addition, my 24 shot Warwalker squad kills a riptide a round. fire at War walkers? Fire at the D-Cannons? Fire at the Jets that are about to Terrify you off the board (Hope that Riptide can hit two at a time)? Decisions, decisions. That's assuming the JetCouncil isn't about to charge whatever might be left. There's also the possibility that he just gets rended by Guardians.

Space Wolves have Jaws. Not that anyone would ever take that.

what should the riptides do about 5 Daemon Princes of various sorts? You have a round to stop them. One. And some overwatch.

I could go on but I think what it is...as i said... is that people dont like spammingh of strong units because they just dont want to have to change their list to accomodate the new threats or they feel it unsporting to take more than 2 of anything outside of troops (and in non-competitive games, that's a pretty common feeling).

I personally don't play spam, because I usually don't need it and i KNOW people dont like it. Sportsmanship is ONE of the three pillars of your score at tourney so in an effort not to mess that up, I have taken to learning to be a tactics guy more than a list guy so that the opponent always FEELS like there's a chance. But I REALLY think people need to be HONEST with themselves a little more about that. We keep claiming its GW but really...its your wish not to lose. if you HATE losing, its the wrogn game for you.

 Jancoran wrote:

what should the riptides do about 5 Daemon Princes of various sorts? You have a round to stop them. One. And some overwatch.

Daemon princes have a difficult time with tau gunlines tbh. When tau are all castled up, with an ethereal behind them. Daemon princes are in the region of 350 points, for this the tau player can get nearly 36 firewarriors and an ethereal. These would do 3 wounds on overwatch alone.

Not to mention smart missile systems. if they enemy have enough of these and get the first turn, you might find you lose a DP before he even starts flying or has a chance to iron arm himself, LoS or not there are few places to hide.

Most of the time flying circus lists have to play smart vs tau. Assault is normally out of the question until later in the game, once your lashes and flickering fire have whittled down the fire warriors. Deep strike is often used to make sure those FMCS have a chance to get airbourne.

Dirge casters? Love those!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Podded Jawspriest works, I think.

As does Flesh Gauntlet- but what's the odds for that?

A force weapon can do it, but youd practically have to microwave the dice to pull it off. And have fin getting a 3+ or 3++ through tau overwatch. Just because it can be done, doesn't account for statistics boning your attempts. And killing it in a turn isn't the same as I'd. The fact that you need to bring tournry level builds or your own cheese to have a chance at pulling it off is rather telling.

the meta demands an answer. its not about Tournies. its just about the realities of the current meta. have an answer and you win. Have no answer and you MIGHT win.

Example: Beaststar. I've said this elsewhere, but i fought a beast star, Game 5, final table. all game I did EXACTLY one wound to the unit. I won.

So you dont HAVE to have a DIRECT answer for some things. Sometimes just being crafty works.

But in the case of Riptides, it's REALLY no big deal to have an answer for them. Its not as if the SAME problem (namely: killing really big monsters) didn't exist before!!!

Anyone remember the old Dakkafex's? holy cow, those hurt. They do again. Best to have an answer. Tourney or no tourney. I dont think a "tourney level army" is required. Just recognition that Riptides exist and having an answer (or ten, like i just posted) might be a good idea against ALL monsters.

Or, yaknow, crumble to assault like any other tau unit.

Seriously riptides are overrated.

And the "erase 200 points of termies on their turn"?
How about cover? the only way to deny that in interception is the buff commander, who you can only have one of, and it will skyrocket the commander+riptide cost to over 400 points, and you STILL have your invul save so even if you for some reason don't have storm shields in the front, its there , its still not erasing the entire squad. (and if you have SS? it kills about 2 guys. the whole 400+ point package)

You want to argue a wrong opinion? fine. at least get the actual FACTS right first.

And when you argue against INTERCEPTOR power from all things....
I mean, sure-it lets you shoot once without the opponent getting to respond, but its intended against the very things that do the very same! interceptor works against RESERVES
You know what people use reserves for? the very same "I come from reserves and instantly nuke you without you having anything to do about it" or "I hide out of the table until the last moment so you cant kill me in time" tricks.

FFS the only thing interceptor does is to flip the table on anything trying to pull the very same trick! if you go straight forward in a full-scale offense from the get go, the "manly" way of letting your opponent respond, then the interceptor does nothing!

The problem is not Riptides, the problem is Riptides + Marklerlights + buff Commander. I'm still more scared of Broadsides than Riptides though.

really? why is that? I exchanged Broadsides for Riptides in my list but would be interested in reasons to take them again. if for no other reason than i dont use my heavy slots anyways and would love to hear less moaning and groaning from poor losers. =).

"Oh so you want me to beat you a DIFFERENT way? OH, ooookay". Lol.

Because Smart Missile Systems render Venomthropes obsolete and they have any firepower that it doesn't really matter they're not AP 3.

Smart missiles are very nice, but the riptide can get some of its own. Less shots, but more able to govern the range.

The broadsides are ok, but their lack of maneuverability really makes the riptide a more versatile choice in my books. Still one unit with missiles set up in the middle of the board works well if you can keep them out of trouble.

 Jancoran wrote:
Dirge casters? Love those!

235 points later.

Oh you mean on a rhino? sure 5+35 = 40 AND first blood NOT

you're underestimating them. a lot.

Because Monstrous Creatures are more powerful than Walkers, and the cheese dictates that they be the former.

Is a Haruspex more powerful than a Soul Grinder?

I heard a few things about poison on necrons and riptides etc. They just use acid instead if actual poison to hurt the things poison normally wouldnt wound. (Read the third ed cron dex it explains this)