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Then again ID would also work on multiwound models and characters very effectively.

I think adding in more hard counters like ID would really just make the game more of a mess. The game is already feeling like such a terrible case of the Rock/paper/scissor mash up.

It annoys me thoroughly because the rules are designed with these distinctions that are readily ignored whenever suits. Poison works on Riptides, Wraithknights (say what you will about Wraithbone being organic - it doesn't mean that Eldar are Tyranids, and I'm pretty sure Wraithbone doesn't have blood and isn't really organic in any real sense. It definitely doesn't have any cellular/metabolic activity to disrupt with poison) and Dreadknights (surprised that the Riptide wasn't called a Fishknight...). It's especially bad when you consider that they are more capable of resisting this poison because of their mech - the Dreadknight has more wounds than a single Grey Knight Marine. They're also hurt by things meant for non-vehicles, like the Doom of Malantai's soul-suck power. What, do Riptides just have "more soul" than regular Tau? Why doesn't soul-suck work on the pilots of actual vehicles? Meanwhile, poison also works on Necrons!

Also, I dispute the whole "ability to interact with environment makes you an MC" thing. I highly doubt that a Biovore is any more flexible than a Dreadnought or Maulerfiend. The clue is supposed to be in the name - Monstrous Creature.

It all about rules consistency, or a certain lack thereof.

Now in relation to the Riptide, in army terms its 'consistent' as the crisis suits are infantry so to keep the consistency somewhat it was made into a MC. A certain logic there that really is sound until you bump into Dreadnoughts.

They need an armour buff to be frank, or more hit points, or both. Most of this is to counteract grenades, the buff was a little too good.

And you can ID MCs, the odd force weapon hurts or if you are guard and using FW beast hunter shells are a bit of a shock


Also its because both unit types are so similar that these quirks exist. Warmahordes does it better by having warbeasts and warjacks use exactly the same damage system. Now by that logic Walkers should be a subtype of MC that are immune to poison and anti tank weapons have benefits against them (extra wounds for example). But doing that buggers over vehicles as well...

A bit of a mess indeed

I suppose you could mak Riptides an AV10 walker with 5 hp, a serpent shield equivalent that downgrades all penetrating hits to glancing hits, and a 2+ save.

For an in-universe explanation for both the Dreadknight and Riptide is that the pilots of both are effectively plugged into them allowing direct neural control. The Dreadknight would be connected to the Grey Knight's Black Carapace much like his normal armour and the riptide pilot is hooked into the suit in the same manner as pilots of Crisis suits.

But the examples we have for walkers are
Drednaughts: Which has the pilot plugged into in a similar manner
Mauler/forgefiend: Where the machine is actually alive
Soulgrinder and the CSM walker I can't remember right now: Where again the demonic entity is actually controlling the machine as if it's part of it's body.

The only two I can think of that are actually operated are the IG sentinel and the Ork Killa Kans.

That's pretty much exactly how a dreadnought works. Its a huge walking sarcaughagus. Its not like Astertes Terry Schaivo is going to be physically manipulating the thing as a suit...

 Guitarquero wrote:
because then no body would buy them.

pretty much.

Hunam0001 wrote:
I suppose you could mak Riptides an AV10 walker with 5 hp, a serpent shield equivalent that downgrades all penetrating hits to glancing hits, and a 2+ save.

Boy, does this neatly demonstrate how gimped walkers are in this version compared to monstrous creatures. The immunity to pens AND the armour save would make this theoretical riptide walker SO much more durable than any current walker.

 Orock wrote:

 Guitarquero wrote:
because then no body would buy them.

pretty much.

Would you buy a Riptide if it were an AV 13 all around walker with a 4++?

 AtoMaki wrote:
The answer is quite obvious: because Walkers represent the clumsy "basic" bipedal things while Monstrous Creatures represent the agile "dynamic" bipedal things. So if you can interact with your environment like a humanoid being then you are a MC. Otherwise, if your interaction with your environment is limited (for example, you can't jump) then you are a Walker.

The Riptide and the Wraithknight are clearly Category 2. Their structural build-up is too nimble to pass as a Walker. It isn't just about being "organic" or "mechanical".

Bipedal is the wrong word in every case you mentioned. Legged, limbed would've been better.

Read: Defilers, Soul Grinders, Necron Walkers. Read also: Nid MCs, Ork Gargantuan Creatures, Necron and Dark Eldar MCs also have no legs.


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 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 Guitarquero wrote:
because then no body would buy them.

pretty much.

Would you buy a Riptide if it were an AV 13 all around walker with a 4++?

No. It can still die to one shot, whereas an R'varna takes a minimum of 6 wounds to kill, and usually 18. (R'varna being a T7 W6 2+4++5+++ walking version of the riptide.)

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 Guitarquero wrote:
because then no body would buy them.

pretty much.

Would you buy a Riptide if it were an AV 13 all around walker with a 4++?

No. It can still die to one shot, whereas an R'varna takes a minimum of 6 wounds to kill, and usually 18. (R'varna being a T7 W6 2+4++5+++ walking version of the riptide.)

Ok, the reason dreadknight and riptides are MCs is simple, they are WORN, not piloted.
They are like really big power armor and a really big crisis suit, much thicker, much better armed, but still practically the same, you move around as you naturally do-and the armor's gear mimic your movement, as if the operator IS the machine.


Dreadnauts, and deamon engines are different, they are more like a standard issue tank, that has its own none-dependent systems who can, practically, be done with mere joysticks, but the control systems that ARE used are a bit differet in activation methods, but not in effects, they move the "body" in according to a command line given from a source, and if that source is a keyboard, a coffin or a possessing deamon matters little.



As for all the "riptides are MCs so they will be OP" conspiracy theorists, you all know that there is nothing OP about the riptide itself, its just the ion accelerator that is bonkers, the HBC is nothing more then decent. and even a simple fix as reducing non-nova shots of the IA to AP3 would do much to fix it.

T6, W5, Sv2+ with FNP for its cost is a damn steal. Don't even get me started on EWO for 5 fething points...

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ok, the reason dreadknight and riptides are MCs is simple, they are WORN, not piloted.
They are like really big power armor and a really big crisis suit, much thicker, much better armed, but still practically the same, you move around as you naturally do-and the armor's gear mimic your movement, as if the operator IS the machine.


Dreadnauts, and deamon engines are different, they are more like a standard issue tank, that has its own none-dependent systems who can, practically, be done with mere joysticks, but the control systems that ARE used are a bit differet in activation methods, but not in effects, they move the "body" in according to a command line given from a source, and if that source is a keyboard, a coffin or a possessing deamon matters little.



As for all the "riptides are MCs so they will be OP" conspiracy theorists, you all know that there is nothing OP about the riptide itself, its just the ion accelerator that is bonkers, the HBC is nothing more then decent. and even a simple fix as reducing non-nova shots of the IA to AP3 would do much to fix it.

I personally do for just making the IA more expensive, say 15-25 points.

Walker limits the mobility of what the riptide is intended to do. It has a jet-pack, easier to attach the rules to a monstrous creature than a walker.

Otherwise the rules would be way more complicated.

I would love to see GW try to come up for a Vehicle type "Walker Skimmer"

 PrinceRaven wrote:


Monstrous Creatures can be killed in one shot too, it's called "Instant Death", they're also able to be wounded by nearly everything in the game and are hurt by strength 8 on 2s instead of 5s. Besides, vehicles could be instakilled in 6th, you were twice as like to do it even, I don't remember anyone complaining about it then.

Ok. So they can be killed by a minority of weapons. Not like we have melta in almost every single goddamn list...


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 Savageconvoy wrote:
I would love to see GW try to come up for a Vehicle type "Walker Skimmer"

Blood angels furioso dreads

the difference between Superman and Clark Kent is that one wears glasses...and one does not. so. That is why they cant be the same person. And in the same vein that is why a Riptide could never be a Dreadnought. The Riptide isn't a coffin (to begin with) and the Dreadnought is.

=)

When Tau were first released, the developers notes stated that originally during playtesting Tau Crisis and broadside battlesuits were vehicles, but due to the numbers that could be taken they considered them to be overpowered since they stretched anti tank weapons to the limits. that was in addition to the mobility they wanted to have. so they switched them to being infantry, then they toned down the mobility, and reduced the save of crisis suits to reach a kind of balance (proof they have done playtesting in recorded history)

Since Riptides are simply bigger battlesuits, it seems logical that they would use the same rules. I'm sure they considered making them walkers, but making them MC's keeps the continuity with the rest of the battlesuits

Games Workshop does not care about continuity, if they did the mini-Revenant would have been a Walker.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:


Monstrous Creatures can be killed in one shot too, it's called "Instant Death", they're also able to be wounded by nearly everything in the game and are hurt by strength 8 on 2s instead of 5s. Besides, vehicles could be instakilled in 6th, you were twice as like to do it even, I don't remember anyone complaining about it then.

Ok. So they can be killed by a minority of weapons. Not like we have melta in almost every single goddamn list...

You say that like MCs aren't weak to Melta weapons as well.

Well, point for point, MCs aren't pretty weak to melta. Try killing a wraith knight with multi meltas.

You would need over 16 melta hits on average against a wraithknight with a sunshield, 12 hits without one.
How about a riptide? That would take 11 melta hits (if nova is not used to give it a 3++ save).

Name a vehicle (without ceramite plating) that can take more than 10 melta hits.

We are in titan killing territory there.

2 Wave Serpents are about the same points and could probably take that many hits thanks to Jink. 5 Rhinos would probably require that many melta hits or more for even cheaper than a Riptide.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Well, point for point, MCs aren't pretty weak to melta. Try killing a wraith knight with multi meltas.

You would need over 16 melta hits on average against a wraithknight with a sunshield, 12 hits without one.
How about a riptide? That would take 11 melta hits (if nova is not used to give it a 3++ save).

Name a vehicle (without ceramite plating) that can take more than 10 melta hits.

wave sepernt with Shield up and cover save up

I wonder if anyone at GW even brought up the fact that the riptide was going to piss a lot of people off

Mali wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Well, point for point, MCs aren't pretty weak to melta. Try killing a wraith knight with multi meltas.

You would need over 16 melta hits on average against a wraithknight with a sunshield, 12 hits without one.
How about a riptide? That would take 11 melta hits (if nova is not used to give it a 3++ save).

Name a vehicle (without ceramite plating) that can take more than 10 melta hits.

wave sepernt with Shield up and cover save up

If the serpent moved, with holofields, giving it a 4+ cover save and the serpent shield up, it would take 10 exactly to bring down (this is if the shield converted every penetrating hit, so maybe slightly less than 10 shots on average).

I think this is about as good as it gets for vehicles. If it was against drop pod meltas on the first turn though its a whole different story.

I imagine that if they did the response would have been either "YOLO" or "just as planned, mwuhahahaha".

 PrinceRaven wrote:

You say that like MCs aren't weak to Melta weapons as well.

I wouldn't say "weak" to melta per se, though it is a weapon you can fire at MCs and feel good about that choice because a wound is a wound.

However, Meltas in melta range in my experiences always cause something catastrophic to the vehicle, barring Wave Serpents for the ability to shrug off penetrating hits and Ceramite for ignoring the extra d6 armor pen roll. It's probably getting a penetrating hit even against AV14 and you've got a 50/50 chance with an AP1 weapon of just blowing up the vehicle, regardless of hull points remaining. 5/6 possible penetrating hit rolls at AP1 totally mess up a vehicle.

There aren't any instant death ranged weapons I'm aware of outside of S-Destroyer, in the current state of 40k. All the ones I can think of are melee weapons, and even then a lot of them don't have the proper AP, strength, or combination of the two to reliably even land a blow that sticks to Monstrous Creatures even at just T5. Insta-gibbing MCs is super hard and requires an inordinate amount of luck. Insta-gibbing big tanks is fairly common and really easy to do.

I'm not saying meltas aren't better at killing Vehicles, that's what they're there for. But not every weapon in the game is a meltagun. Besides, 2 melta hits pretty much guaranteed to kill a Predator, 4 melta hits basically guaranteed to kill a Hive Tyrant sounds reasonable to me given how a Hive Tyrant is about double the price.