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Another +1 for the Mako. I liked the maneuverability of the M-44 Hammerhead (If you got the Firewalker free DLC), but it had absolutely no durability and the waypoint orientated missions were pants. Mako ftw.

@Shadow Captain Edithae - I can't agree that Shepard would have been indoctrinated by exposure to the Catalyst for one reason:



@Melissia - I'll just compile your last few contributions to our conversation:

 Melissia wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Kanluwen - Pity, because the article I read laid it out in a convincing manner.

It sounded desperate, kind of pathetic, and just generally uninteresting to me.

Also, the only punches I delivered to the reporter were verbal, and they were complete and utter verbal beatdowns. Much more satisfying

 Melissia wrote:
Or maybe your pet theory really isn't all that great.

 Melissia wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Or maybe your pet theory really isn't all that great.

Ok then. Please tell us more about how Shepard is inexplicably immune to Indoctrination, seeing as you know everything.

Go learn to read, then go back and read my posts, and you'll find that I never made that claim.

You present a false dichotomy, and given you active attempts to disrespect anyone who disagrees with you, I don't feel any obligation to tell you any more than that.

Read in the context of the thread, I'd hardly call either of those three remarks courteous nor respectful. Regarding your later comments - Yes, Shadow Captain Edithae may like the Indoctrination theory, Yes, you may not agree - but that's up to them to express their opinion and engage in an intellectual debate with others about it in a fair and balanced way and should you be a mature person, you'd respond in like. What is not needed is your frequently sour or confrontational interjections, with rude overtones that were entirely unprompted, such as you've just displayed. We are here to participate in a discussion about what we like about the Mass Effect series - we, including you, are not here to tell others how to think. May I remind you that this forum has rules, which thus far have been observed by this thread's participants, and does not exist to massage your ego!

Now, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you Melissia, I'd say the same to anybody else acting like this, but I was enjoying this thread, and I'll not have it devolve into a senseless OT argument.

I think you might be overthinking the 'This is Shepard' remark...

In any case, I'm now downloading all the flipping DLC again and I'm also a bit sad that the Normandy SR-1 model that I bought and ended up waiting in all day yesterday for is notably smaller scale than Dropzone Commander.

Possibly Compel, so I'll remove that one, but I still feel the others are pretty close to the mark.

Back on-topic - I'm kind of avoiding Mass Effect DLC as there's that much it all ramps up in price. Come ME4 I may get it, but I'll need a 3rd playthrough to get the full experience - which I can't be bothered to do right now

Was anybody else slightly annoyed that they removed the neutral option off of the dialogue wheel in 3? I liked that in the first two, you usually had the option to be more neutral rather than more of an extreme like the paragon/renegade options. It being taken out felt like a bit of a "dumbing down", for me. Still loved the game and all, but I liked having that option.

The thing is, 99% of people never chose the neutral option. As the neutral option would pretty much always result in a less-than-ideal outcome, compared to one of the two others. So, at that point, why bother including it?

However, if the neutral responses were a viable dialogue option, upgrading like the others, with it having a suitable influence on the game, then yes I'd rather it be in there.

For example, an ideal circumstance to me would be something like:

Paragon Response = Superman style reply.
Renegade Response = Batman style reply. (plus occasional killing)
Neutral Response = Professional Soldier reply.

With each one having an impact, not always positive or negative... Perhaps the Paragon Response is, "yes, ma'am, I'll bring your child back safe and sound, I guarentee it. You don't need to worry at all." but the Neutral Reponse is, "I'll do my best, ma'am but you must prepare yourself for the worst..."

And, due to various reasons outside your control, the child cannot be saved. The paragon choice there was a Bad Thing as the mother now blames you.

Hmmm, not a bad idea Compel, but then doesn't that defeat the purpose of the Renegade/Paragon option? Why give you the option to be super good/bad, when it's all left to chance anyway?

Seeing as it hasn't come up already - what's everyone's favourite weapon of the series?

Well, the way I'd see it, ideally.

Is that you've got a super good, super bad, and super neutral option. And they all balance out, so it, ultimately, comes down to the way you want to play 'your' Shepard. Of course, you may end up managing to 'scam' it, and pick the best outcome for every option... However, that ends up with your Paragon/Neutral/Renegade level all over the place so you end up not having a high enough level in any one of them in certain situations.

Otherwise, yeah ,don't bother having the neutral option.

As for my favourite gun? The N7 Valiant. Sniper all the way!

Mattock. All day.

But not every conversation had some important outcome. A lot of the time, you're just talking to people. And the neutral option was cool to have around in those cases. And most really important decisions also rendered the other two usual options "less than ideal" anyway, since you'd need the charm or intimidate options to get the best outcome.

Like I said, it didn't bother me too much, just felt like a slight loss of depth.

Fallout had a perk that is right up your alley. While maintaining neutral karma you got a +X to speech and barter or something. Basically a reward for toeing the line between good and evil. That would have been good in ME, an ability to use charm/intimidate sort of options without going full hero/villain.

 Lynata wrote:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Christ, how many times does it have to be said before it gets through people's skulls?
The symptoms of Indoctrination are explicitly stated in-game, in the Codex. Shepard exhibits these symptoms.

Or Shepard simply exhibits the aforementioned symptoms of PTSD, which would be a rather human thing to experience given what she/he went through.

True, it could be PTSD. In fact I think its probably a mix of both. Shepard's PTSD and guilt over Earth and the boy left her mind vulnerable to assaullt by Indoctrination by the time she reached the Crucible.

And would be more fitting than the hero being mind-controlled into ... into what, exactly? Into not showing us what happens? What sort of crappy ending would that be? If you do agree (though I don't think it is necessary that we actually agree on an ultimate explanation or solution, given how much depends on interpretation here) that "its unlikely that Shepard was successfully Indoctrinated", then why is everyone still argueing?

So the main reason you're against the possibility of Indoctrination or attempted Indoctrination is that you simply don't like that Ending? Personally I think the ME Ending works best if it is left slightly vague and open to interpretation, like Lost and Inception. And in fact, it already is, as we're already arguing over interpretation.

Can you not at least accept that the Reapers were probing her mind and attempting to Indoctrinate her? Speaking for myself here, I'm still arguing because everyone is sticking their fingers in the ears and saying "la-la-la I can't hear you, Shepard is not being Indoctrinated, the symptoms are just creative licence".

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:The ghostly presences/oily shadows are also present in the nightmares throughout the game.

Fairly sure Shep already had nightmares before Thessia ... to tie into Troike's interesting remark regarding the VI's ability to detect indoctrination.

In this sense, perhaps the oily shadows are simply a reflection of Shepard's sanity?

Phaeston is like firing bee's at a wall on multiplayer

 motyak wrote:
Fallout had a perk that is right up your alley. While maintaining neutral karma you got a +X to speech and barter or something. Basically a reward for toeing the line between good and evil. That would have been good in ME, an ability to use charm/intimidate sort of options without going full hero/villain.

Yeah, that would have been nice. Not sure I would have used it much, though.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
No. You're projecting your own rudeness and disrespect.

The only one projecting here is you, trying to claim I said something I didn't say.

It "became an argument" as soon as one person disagreed with the other. There's nothing wrong with an argument, it's just two people disagreeing. But it became an *unpleasant* argument when you decided to claim that I believed something I never gave any indication of believing.

That is inherently disrespectful and you need to apologize for it.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Melissia - I'll just compile your last few contributions to our conversation:

There is nothing inherently disrespectful about what I posted. I stated my opinion on the Indoctrination theory, reiterated my opinion when he was trying to present a false dicohotomy fallacy, and then stated that I was offended (which remains true) at him claiming I believed something I do not believe.

@Melissia and Shadow Captain Edithae - To be honest, I don't really care about your whole tit-for-tat thing going on here. I'm not a Moderator, but I am a participator, and I'd like the thread to stay pleasant. By all means, continue your debate in an intellectual manner, considering each others points in a balanced way, but don't let it get personal. That's all I have to say on the matter - I have no interest in the why's or wherefores. Keep it respectful please.

@ Motyak - Just when you mentioned Fallout there - It may be a bad idea, but I'd like to see the next Mass Effect get a more open world Skyrim-esque (The link being that Bethseda makes both Fallout and Skyrim) feel to it. I'd keep the planet exploring and the fast, action based linear main missions, but I'd kind of like them to re-work it so that there's a larger open world with loads of side-quests. The only trouble I see with this is that in doing so, it would possibly mean that they can't put as much detail in and it would lose some of it's charm.

As for my own favourite weapon - Mattock w/ extended mag (Or was it rate of fire?), scope and extended barrel. The only one to trump it was the M-99 Sabre, with it's only drawback being rate of fire. Still, it'll put a Reaver down in one shot

 Melissia wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
No. You're projecting your own rudeness and disrespect.

The only one projecting here is you, trying to claim I said something I didn't say.

And yet you still fail to recognise that the only person I was being disrespectful to was YOU, after you posted a sarcastic one liner. And then you began making insults.

Like I said, if you're going to accuse someone of being disrespectful, its best not to be disrespectful yourself.

It "became an argument" as soon as one person disagreed with the other. There's nothing wrong with an argument, it's just two people disagreeing. But it became an *unpleasant* argument when you decided to claim that I believed something I never gave any indication of believing.

Perhaps if you had bothered to elaborate beyond "Maybe your pet theory isn't so great". and actually said what you believe, then I wouldn't have needed to make a sarcastic response. The argument became unpleasant when you joined it.

That is inherently disrespectful and you need to apologize for it.

Sure. I'll apologise when you apologise. Seeing as the only people in this thread that are being disrespectful are you and myself, to each other. I've not been "disrespectful" to anyone else, except perhaps when I said "Christ, when will people get it through their skulls".

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Melissia - I'll just compile your last few contributions to our conversation:

There is nothing inherently disrespectful about what I posted. I stated my opinion on the Indoctrination theory, reiterated my opinion when he was trying to present a false dicohotomy fallacy, and then stated that I was offended (which remains true) at him claiming I believed something I do not believe.

If you want people to respond properly to your opinion on something, it helps to actually elaborate on your opinion beyond "maybe your theory isn't so great". A proper civilised argument involves rebuttals of your opponent's points and arguments, not just your idea is stupid and "Learn to read". You made no comment on my points that Shepard displays the known symptoms of Indoctrination as stated by the in-game Codex. Indeed, I don't even know if you've actually bothered to read my comments as you havn't even acknowledged my arguments yet.

The Codex lists certain things as indictators of Indoctrination - Shepard displays these indicators. IMO that is significant - otherwise, what is the point of the Codex?


I've said all I want to say, and I'll let you have the last word. No doubt you'll use it to insult me again.

In regards to weapons, I've always liked the Vindicator. It's good for headshots, so I can be picking off enemies from a distance. But can also work as a general use gun.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So the main reason you're against the possibility of Indoctrination or attempted Indoctrination is that you simply don't like that Ending?

Personally, I don't like the indoctrination theory because, to me, it feels like a "and it was all a dream" ending. The stuff we see wasn't real and didn't actually matter, and the "waking up" (being indoctrinated) really comes out of nowhere.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Can you not at least accept that the Reapers were probing her mind and attempting to Indoctrinate her?

I don't think that they ever really got the chance to. I see no evidence that her mind was probed throughout.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
i]Then why does the in-game Codex list oily black shadows as a symptom of Indoctrination?[/i]

Well, as I said before, those shadows did take place in a dream. If they'd been happening out in waking life, okay, that'd be odd, but a dream is a bit of an abstract place. And, as Lynata said, it'd be odd if the Prothean VI didn't detect anything about Shepard if they were supposedly experiencing outright symptoms of indoctrination, by that point.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
But you never address the fact that the in-game Codex and Lore explicitly lists these things as the the known symptoms of Indoctrination.

Those things were addressed. Basically, the response was that they're not necessarily signs of indoctrination. Yes, they can be viewed as similar to what's described in the codex, but they can also be explained in other ways.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
READ THE CODEX.

Hey now, no need for this. We know what it says, you've posted it ITT. But people continuing to disagree with you doesn't mean that they're ignorant of the lore or anything.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And yet you still fail to recognise that the only person I was being disrespectful to was YOU

And you expect me to care that you were singling me out? Being a jerk is being a jerk, regardless.

Apologize.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
i]Then why does the in-game Codex list oily black shadows as a symptom of Indoctrination?[/i]

Well, as I said before, those shadows did take place in a dream. If they'd been happening out in waking life, okay, that'd be odd, but a dream is a bit of an abstract place. And, as Lynata said, it'd be odd if the Prothean VI didn't detect anything about Shepard if they were supposedly experiencing outright symptoms of indoctrination, by that point.

They also occur in the end game sequence during the encounter with TIM, IIRC.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
But you never address the fact that the in-game Codex and Lore explicitly lists these things as the the known symptoms of Indoctrination.

Those things were addressed. Basically, the response was that they're not necessarily signs of indoctrination. Yes, they can be viewed as similar to what's described in the codex, but they can also be explained in other ways.

So you think its simply a coincidence? A design oversight? I personally find it odd that we'd be given an explicit description of Indoctrination's symptoms and Shepard then displays these symptoms, but the two are in no way connected. Why would Bioware say (in the Codex) "X is an indication of Y", have Shepard then display "X", but its entirely unconnected? IMO its a plothole and an internal inconsistency in the game's Lore.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
READ THE CODEX.

Hey now, no need for this. We know what it says, you've posted it ITT. But people continuing to disagree with you doesn't mean that they're ignorant of the lore or anything.

You're right, I apologise. But it seems like people keep side stepping the point and are not addressing it, hence why I keep restating it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Perhaps if you had bothered to elaborate beyond "Maybe your pet theory isn't so great". and actually said what you believe, then I wouldn't have needed to make a sarcastic response. The argument became unpleasant when you joined it.

Stop lying to yourself, you never "needed" to be a jerk.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sure. I'll apologise when you apologise

Unlike you, I have nothing to apologize for.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
A proper civilised argument involves

Not inserting things in to peoples' posts and claiming they believe that.

So you fail. You fail at being proper, you fail at being civilized, and you fail at making an argument.

Apologize.

Melissia and shadow, if you want to keep arguing this do it via pm or just go away, we want to talk mass effect not who owes whom an apology.

Ot: I love the me universe not necessarily the games themselves, I consider it a untapped goldmine with so much more potential than the creators have realised, it's the modern day star wars (or at least what star wars could have been) and I predict will be referenced in popular culture for decades to come.

 Formosa wrote:
Melissia and shadow, if you want to keep arguing this do it via pm or just go away, we want to talk mass effect not who owes whom an apology.

Agreed. I've made my last comment on it and won't be reading any further posts from Melissia.

Ot: I love the me universe not necessarily the games themselves, I consider it a untapped goldmine with so much more potential than the creators have realised, it's the modern day star wars (or at least what star wars could have been) and I predict will be referenced in popular culture for decades to come.

I think its better than Star Wars personally.

I agree shadow, that's the point I clearly failed to make haha, this game is our generations star.wars and kids growing up with it will be just as influenced I think

 Formosa wrote:
I agree shadow, that's the point I clearly failed to make haha, this game is our generations star.wars and kids growing up with it will be just as influenced I think

Yes. A generation of Christian conservative kids will be forever traumatised and haunted by nightmares of blue alien side boobs. God bless Fox News for warning the world of the danger of blue boobies.

Yay, I managed to finally get Mass Effect 3 working again (and I've been promised a 15% discount code for my trouble, really surprisingly.)

I've also apparently got a 17 hour male, default Shepard, Level 42 Renegade Adept playthrough that I had almost completely forgotten about.

Oh, and I even had him on insanity difficulty. Oh dear.

Am I the only one who thinks insanity was too easy?

In single player it was too easy, not so much in multi. I blame lag.

 Melissia wrote:
In single player it was too easy, not so much in multi. I blame lag.

Insanity for Single Player was equivalent to "Silver" difficulty for MP.

Gold was higher than Insanity, and Platinum was just dumb.

Well, that explains it. I regularly did gold in multiplayer back when I actually played it.

Hmm, never knew that. I could solo bronze with the right class, I usually played at Silver, but did gold at times if I was wanting to properly pay attention to the game. I think I succeeded in a platinum game twice, but only 1 of those was what I'd call a 'legitimate' win, the other involved hiding in a cargo container and shooting through walls.

In that case, I might do fine at insanity, it'll only be me being massively out of practice that'll cause problems.

Warpig1815 wrote:Back on-topic - I'm kind of avoiding Mass Effect DLC as there's that much it all ramps up in price.

You don't need all of them. But at least get Lair of the Shadow Broker and the Citadel DLC, asap!

Warpig1815 wrote:Seeing as it hasn't come up already - what's everyone's favourite weapon of the series?

Depends on what role I play. As Shep in the campaign, and as Asari Adept in multiplayer, I stuck to the classy M-8 Avenger assault rifle.
When playing the Human Sniper, though, which I did a lot, I almost always pick the N7 Valiant, only rarely switching it for the Black Widow. It may not pack quite the same punch, but the higher rate of fire lets you take off targets ridiculously fast if you're good with headshots.
Lastly, for a pistol sidearm, I swear by the M-77 Paladin, of which I also have a replica in my room. This gun is just sexy.

Honourable mention goes towards the Phaeston. Originally only picking it because I wanted my multiplayer Turian Soldier to have a "proper" turian gun, I quickly grew to appreciate its extreme rate of fire and accuracy. It has low damage, but it shoots so fast that this little baby almost feels like a Reaper beam.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:So the main reason you're against the possibility of Indoctrination or attempted Indoctrination is that you simply don't like that Ending?

No. The main reason is that I'm content with the ending I got, that Indoctrination is directly contradicted by the game itself, and that I don't agree about the foreshadowing.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Can you not at least accept that the Reapers were probing her mind and attempting to Indoctrinate her? Speaking for myself here, I'm still arguing because everyone is sticking their fingers in the ears and saying "la-la-la I can't hear you, Shepard is not being Indoctrinated, the symptoms are just creative licence".

Why should I accept this, given the evidence offered by the game?
To be honest, I could just as well say that it's you who is sticking their fingers in the ears.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Then why does the in-game Codex list oily black shadows as a symptom of Indoctrination? [...] READ THE CODEX.

It doesn't.

Apart from it being rather offensive to simply assume that we "did not do our homework" just because we don't agree with this theory, you have actually cited the relevant codex entry yourself on page 2. And there is nothing about "oily black shadows" in there. In fact, the codex entry about Indoctrination might even serve as another proof against Shepard having been indoctrinated. When has Shep complained about headaches? Where exactly were those hallucinations? Did Shepard, at any point in the game, feel paranoid to you?

So where does this conviction that the codex says this come from? A lapse in memory? Or have you allowed yourself to become Indoctrinated by the Indoctrination Theory?

Warpig1815 wrote:@Melissia and Shadow Captain Edithae - To be honest, I don't really care about your whole tit-for-tat thing going on here. I'm not a Moderator, but I am a participator, and I'd like the thread to stay pleasant. By all means, continue your debate in an intellectual manner, considering each others points in a balanced way, but don't let it get personal. That's all I have to say on the matter - I have no interest in the why's or wherefores. Keep it respectful please.

+1

I think you are both goading each other and escalating the situation. I know it's easy to fall into this trap, but ... just try to shift down a gear.

Warpig1815 wrote:It may be a bad idea, but I'd like to see the next Mass Effect get a more open world Skyrim-esque (The link being that Bethseda makes both Fallout and Skyrim) feel to it. I'd keep the planet exploring and the fast, action based linear main missions, but I'd kind of like them to re-work it so that there's a larger open world with loads of side-quests. The only trouble I see with this is that in doing so, it would possibly mean that they can't put as much detail in and it would lose some of it's charm.

It would lose much of its pacing, and the experience would not be nearly as cinematic.

Still, I think I'd enjoy this, too. It'd be a completely different kind of game, but that does not mean it would have to be worse...

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Yes. A generation of Christian conservative kids will be forever traumatised and haunted by nightmares of blue alien side boobs. God bless Fox News for warning the world of the danger of blue boobies.

Oh goddess, now you made me remember that crap.
The worst thing is that I still have a hunch that the conservatives' reaction to ME had influenced BioWare's design in other titles like TOR and Dragon Age. This perversely hypocritical society is driving me nuts.