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Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

But one should probably make sure it's actually a cat before you light it on fire and call it a cat.

As somone who has played for a very long time and been heavily involved in the tournament scene since I started I'm of the opinion to play 7th edition as written.

And no, saying no Unbound is not changing the rules. It's specifying the armies permitted which is different than changing how battle forged works or the psychic phase.

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Made in gb
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SHE-FI-ELD

 Leth wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Leth wrote:
If we were two to three months out I MIGHT think that it would be valid to talk about making changes. However it has not even been a week and people are trying to say something hypothetical is going to be broken in tournaments. Lets see some tournament games with armies designed for 7th edition(IE not static gunlines) and see how this broken combo works.


One does not have to have lit a cat on fire "before" to able to predict the end results. There are people here who have played for more than half their lives, literally decades, and they are likely able to read rules and make fairly accurate predictions of how that will incentivize list building and the overall direction of the game err "meta" as some say.


Actually many of the people who have that much experience are also saying wait it out and see if it works because they know we don't have enough data to know for sure. Incentivize list building is all about the missions. Until you know what the win objectives are you cant incentivize much of anything.

People can predict what is a statistically better choice but how long before they fine tune it? We still have no idea how everything interacts on the table right now, we also have to remember that many people are just prone to seeing a possibility and making that that the norm, so to respond to such is not a good way to limit what you want to limit.



Agree pretty much with this. I don't mind some of the things in the first post, but banning CtA allies? Its BB allies which are more of a problem, as they were through 6th. Most tournaments still allowed allies though they lead, and still do tip the scales of balance a bit far. Possibly bit biased though, read down the list and my head was going 1. No Nids. 2. No Nids. 3. No Nids.

Limiting or restricting anything in the current rules is not easy. Any limitation has to be weighed against every army and possible outcomes for each - by trying to stop one army tipping the balance you can easily gimp another. And -everyone- has their own idea on how to balance, and any changes which nerf will also be held in contempt by your audience. Yay TO's.

Of course, different tournaments will have different takes all the time. I would prefer unbound vs unbound and such, least at first, players need to be eased in.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/05/28 19:37:15


It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.

Tactical objectives are fantastic 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Hulksmash wrote:
But one should probably make sure it's actually a cat


Silly me for giving others the benefit of the doubt, I guess I just assumed others had two eyes like me..

Many ways to skin said cat, the end result is always the same.. for the cat.


Encouraging patience is not the same as accusing others of over reacting.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/05/28 19:34:02


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

I say balance through the missions, not through significant rules changes.

Cap on Warp Charges? Possibly but not the 10 I was seeing thrown around.

I say give people time to adjust to the edition and see where all the problems are before hammering one down and leaving another issue.

Limit the force org? I think that one is fine as in one primary, one ally.

The goal is to limit the extremes not create a whole new game. But we wont know how the extremes need to be limited(if at all) until we see the extent of the problem.

I would rather have options and agree to limit them than not have the options at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 19:45:16


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Leth wrote:
Limit the force org? I think that one is fine as in one primary, one ally.


I would agree with that, but I've already been accused of "whining, knee jerking and proclaiming the sky is falling" on various forums for even making that suggestion. And I don't think it's fair, having used an foc for over a decade, it's safe to say I understand the relationship between it and what can be put in a list.

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
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Dayton, TN

One primary and one ally? No way. Even 6th allows primary, an ally, a IK or inqusitor and fort.

There is only so much you can cram into 1500-2000 points. The way the 7th book is isn't broke. Just play it, mess around, test and you will see.

Click the images to see my armies!


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Regardless of how powerful the Summoning Farm list idea is or is not, do we not agree that it is an issue when allowed in a game based around having 2 armies with equal points values?

I have always, and will always be opposed to any rule that gives one player more resources on the battlefield than another. The concept that makes a points based system meaningful is that both players start the game with the same number of points, which in theory equate to resources. When one player can create more resources and another cannot, this breaks the very foundation of the game system.

I hate Tervigons, Portal Glyphes, Skyblight Gargoyles, etc. and I have never understood why these things get a pass. Probably because they were not able to create free units on this scale, but the point is the same.

In a fair, and there fore competitive game the resources available to each player should be the same, creating more resources destroys this balance. I say ban the Malific Table. Even if your not making daemons, you are basically hunting cursed earth, which is yet another way to combo with the Grim. of True Names to get a 2++ save, no need to hunt Forewarning any more. What is worse, the buff is to all units within 12 inches of the caster... and it's WC 1 !!!
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

I disagree with no double force org but that's mostly because I feel like with allies from the same faction we get the same thing anyway.

This is mostly in response to the other thread we were derailing but Ritides mentioned seeing the super cheap super unit in 6's instead of 4's could be intimidating. I figured we could take a look at some of the undercosted and most used units and see if spamming is that bad:

-Heralds...oops, if we allow allying with ones self we get 8 no matter what.
-Thunderfire Cannons - 600pts. Good but also requiring 4 troops and 2 HQ's. And they aren't that great without the ability to walk blasts back.
-Wyverns - Extremely solid. May have a case for 4 instead of 6 but since you can already take 9 I'm not seeing the issue really. Oh, and you can also PotMS them too so even the number vs. targets is already doable. (Extra troop choice washes cost for 2 techpriests)
-Annihilation Barges - Again, awesome. But each one taken is one less flyer. We've already know how much tesla fits in a necron list. This isn't going to increase it noticably without draining from other essential portions of the list.
-Psyback Henchmen are probably the worst. 12 Psybacks w/Acolytes & Psykers for 816pts is pretty insane (well 1k once you include the actual HQ's). But has 36 TL St6 Really broken the game yet? Heck, you can get more shots out of 4 Serpents for approximately the same points.

The long and short is that most units, even the undercosted ones, are to expensive to truly spam beyond 4 or start to detract fro the army in other major ways. So what is the difference between allied & additional FOC outside of limiting MSU which helps the armies we currently hate (deathstars & 2++) and armies the internet already hates (daemon summoning armies)?

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Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

Kal-El wrote:
One primary and one ally? No way. Even 6th allows primary, an ally, a IK or inqusitor and fort.

There is only so much you can cram into 1500-2000 points. The way the 7th book is isn't broke. Just play it, mess around, test and you will see.


And apocalypse allows players whatever they want, did that make it better than 40k? For some yes, for others no.

I guess the difference is before you could simply choose one, the other or play both on occasion.

Try sharing a hamburger where one guy wants everything on it and other just wants a burger and a bun. I'm a picky eater myself.

Having to take things out shows how bloated the last two editions have been. A lean and mean core game would not detract from those that want to play casual, loose or "unbound" by an foc.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/05/28 20:30:40


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
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[MOD]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

 Hulksmash wrote:
-Psyback Henchmen are probably the worst. 12 Psybacks w/Acolytes & Psykers for 816pts is pretty insane (well 1k once you include the actual HQ's). But has 36 TL St6 Really broken the game yet? Heck, you can get more shots out of 4 Serpents for approximately the same points.

I dunno, that one does sound pretty bad . You're better at thinking up the scary spam lists than I am...

I'm open to considering 2 FOC allowed... but 1 FOC plus 1 Ally (perhaps allowing self-allying to make up for restricting to 1 FOC) sounds much better...

You'd then have:

3 HQ
8 Troops
4 Fast
4 Elite
4 Heavy

If you allow dataslates too, then you've got even more options. But 12 Psybacks with Psykers inside for 816 does sound like the kind of thing that will make this game un-fun with 2 FOC. Can't most armies combat deathstars with the slots I listed above, plus dataslates? 2 FOCs seems to take the pendulum all the way the other direction... and unlike 6th, limiting point levels doesn't automatically take away the multiple FOC.

I really should say multiple, since the book has no limit lol. Let's talk 18 Psybacks with Psykers inside for 1224
   
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Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

Except that with that with FOC & Self Ally I can still run 12 Psybacks. The difference being that 4 of them have to come from other units which might not be as cheap but add even more to the army.

Heck, I can run 12 Psybacks now with 30 MEQ's and 6 Henchmen Squads for less than 1500pts. So if it's unfun to play against 36 shots a turn in boxes that can already be done. That's kinda the point, most of the abusive stuff can still already be done. Expanding it doesn't make it worse and gives you more flexibility for dealing with meta shifts.

Additionally, and from a purely selfish viewpoint, it allows modelers who like to build crazy custom and thematic armies a wider branch to pull from

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Ivanhoe,MN

@Hulk, thanks for the reply from the other thread here...

I definitely have a biased towards the Twin cities based tourneys as those are the ones I am likely able to attend year in and out now that the bug has bitten, possibly Bugeater.

I think it's definitely easy to get wrapped up in the "holy crap, they are 6 necron AB's" without seeing the big picture. Thanks for a little bit of perspective.

I am definitely in the position where if i were to see 6 riptides across the table with some markerlight support, that i am going to be in a bad spot. just a random example.

but to put it in perspective, the 5 games i got in over Darkstar represented more games I had with the 6th edition Tyranid codex prior to that.
   
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Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

 Hulksmash wrote:
Except that with that with FOC & Self Ally I can still run 12 Psybacks. The difference being that 4 of them have to come from other units which might not be as cheap but add even more to the army.

Heck, I can run 12 Psybacks now with 30 MEQ's and 6 Henchmen Squads for less than 1500pts. So if it's unfun to play against 36 shots a turn in boxes that can already be done. That's kinda the point, most of the abusive stuff can still already be done. Expanding it doesn't make it worse and gives you more flexibility for dealing with meta shifts.

Additionally, and from a purely selfish viewpoint, it allows modelers who like to build crazy custom and thematic armies a wider branch to pull from

Well, 1500 points is a lot more than 816 . Or if we go "RAW, no restrictions" and allow 3 FOC... 18 Psybacks for 1224 (plus HQs).

So, it's not really the same, as you will see what you currently see, but a LOT more of it!

I am all for thematic armies, that's what I go for, too . And 12 dreadnoughts has it's appeals for me. But I'd be willing to go with 8 (which I could run with 1 FOC and an ally), as I can still have a pretty insane theme with that many.
   
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Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

You missed the point by a bit. The twelve razorbacks are not that great. Adding 30 meq with those razors all woth specials is exponentially better. Well worth double the points. But that response was almost entirely in response to 12 razors being unfu to play against.

And i thought i had been pretty open about wanting a 3 org limit but being willing to do two. Which is what weve been discussing. Either 2 force orgs or foc and allies.

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i talk to team stomping grounds and frontline gaming,we they both agree that the allied matrix where you can do stupid things with it and stuff,they like even with come to apoc,but you can only bring 2 detachments primary and allied,and the deamons stuff is dumb with summons and people are forgetting plus one to your invule save for deamons to a 4 up invule,i think that would help and no dam missions cards and stuff,just have battlepoints to your mission score and to me since everything is about scoring it evens out,i mybe wrong what do you think?
   
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

@beecee

No worries. Im in the cities too. And i wouldnt sweat it to much. The local scene is a good one to play in amd learn the game. Mostly because it doesnt freak out to much beyond some silly hyperbole for fun. Check out frozen north on facebook for a huge group of cities gamers.

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Shadeglass Maze

Hey Hulk, sorry about that- I didn't mean the 3 FOC comment to be directed at you, but more generally (i.e. to someone saying no tweak would be needed).

And I defer to you on what is best, you have a lot better handle on it- I guess I was listing 18 razors full of psykers as being even more "unfun" to play against than 12 but it's probably more S6 than anyone would ever want (especially with the likely arms race up to AV13-14 vehicles given the change to the armor penetration table).

I meant that post to be still in the vein of thinking out loud and not necessarily jumping to conclusions... I'm totally planning my "dreadgasm" army right now but how many I cram in is something I'm considering in light of tournaments, since I like to build towards events. Obviously there's no way to know what will be allowed yet... so really just bouncing ideas around here.
   
Made in it
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I'm by far not an experienced tournament player, actually i've yet to play my first tournament. That said, with the rules being proposed here i don't think i would ever go to a tournament.
The thing that i think should be absolutely kept of the 7Th for a more fun tournament scene is: Maelstrom missions.

I would never go to a tournament that does not allow those. You can make those less random, there are many ways:

1) A free mulligan on the first draw.
2) Redraw impossible objectives.
3) Capture objectives can't be completed in the first turn in your deployment area.
4) When you draw you draw 2 and pick one.
5) d3=2

Choose one or more. There are many ways to tone down the randomness if that is a problem, but they are really beneficial to the game. The tournament scene right now is either gunlines or deathstars, which are the direct counters. The FOC limitations seems so important due to this, gunlines favor the non-troop models, so the more i can cheat the FOC the better is my army.
Both gunlines and deathstars though are weak in a scenario where you need number of units, many troops and high mobility. Maelstrom missions are the best thing GW gave us in 7Th, the perfect answer to our sick meta, why would want to discard it?

Let's fix maelstrom to a more tournament oriented rule set and at the same time allow everything from 7Th. Let's wait for this new meta to form (which no amount of experience can predict) and then let's make decisions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 22:36:33


 
   
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I like the idea of making it so that you automatically score any objectives that are impossible against your opponent's army. Taking armies that ignore core elements of the game should be punished, not rewarded.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 22:39:00


 
   
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[MOD]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Really? So because I don't take a flyer, but instead take an anti-flyer unit (like a Stalker/Hunter) you should get a free point for supposedly killing my flyer?

That seems... really off, imo.
   
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 RiTides wrote:
Really? So because I don't take a flyer, but instead take an anti-flyer unit (like a Stalker/Hunter) you should get a free point for supposedly killing my flyer?

That seems... really off, imo.


Yes. People will adapt and start fielding more inclusive armies, and that'll be good for the game.
   
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San Jose, CA

 Kingsley wrote:
 RiTides wrote:
Really? So because I don't take a flyer, but instead take an anti-flyer unit (like a Stalker/Hunter) you should get a free point for supposedly killing my flyer?

That seems... really off, imo.


Yes. People will adapt and start fielding more inclusive armies, and that'll be good for the game.

It's never a good idea to force someone to have to run certain units. For example, I don't like flyers and now I am getting penalized for it?!?



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Ok, here are my suggestions on what to do with the Psychic Phase:


1. Distributed Casting. No unit can use more dice than 2x his Mastery level, plus 1/2 of the D6 pooled dice (unless there is only 1 psyker in that army, which can then use all of the D6 pooled dice).

Here’s the problem that this is trying to fix. Say you have a Lvl 3 Daemon Prince with Invisibility, the Summoning and Iron Arm. On average, it’ll take 2 dice to cast a Warp Charge 1 power with any reliablity (75% chance). Thus, to cast Summoning somewhat reliably, you need 6 dice, 4 dice for Invisibility and 2 dice for Iron Arm. Now he’s only got 6 (Level 3) +D3 dice so he needs to choose carefully which power he wants to cast.

This also forces you to allocate some dice for lesser units like Pink Horrors to cast their powers. In short, you cannot use all the dice in the dice pool just to cast the most important powers on just a couple of very important psykers. Instead, you are forced to spread out the dice.


2. Limited Summoning. Cannot successfully bring in more than 1 unit per turn using Malefic Powers (including Summoning, Incursion, Sacrifice and Possession). This should make the game manageable.


3. The New Invisibility. Any unit that shoots or assaults the targeted unit does so at BS1/WS1.


4. Deny. You can only ever use as much Denial dice as 2x the opponent’s Power Dice, plus the D6 pooled dice.


Ok, all better now?




6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
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My thoughts on changes that need to be considered. Tier 1 changes are changes that need to be changed at a basic level. Tier 2 are changes that can be handled local by each tournament but need to be addressed.

Tier 1 changes
• Invisibility
o Suggestions
-Remove the need to hit on 6’s or have it a negative to hit the unit including in melee
- Revert back to shroud and stealth.
- -2 Bs when shooting at the unit and -1WS/-1 I in melee with the unit
- Other suggestions?
• Malefic removal of powers or Daemonlogy
-Remove Daemonlogy power
-Upkeep on summon units
- Look at adding summoning sickness or some type of limitations on Summoning
• Psychic Phase cap limitation of dice – What scaling of powers should be casted for a power.
-No cap depending on malefic removal of dice
-12 +d6 cap limit – Estimate 4 level 1 powers would be casted
-18+D6 Cap limit – Estimate 6 level 1 powers could be casted
-24+D6 cap limit – Estimate 9 level 1 powers could be casted
- Limit the number of dice a caster can throw at a power to ML+1 so a ML 1 caster could throw two warp charges at a power. Level 3 could throw 4.
• Deny the witch
-Bonuse to deny the witch mechanic in conjunction with blessings only.
-Difference in psyker level add +1
- Adamantium will add +1 to deny the witch on blessing
• Maelstrom mission card mechanic change
-Add a mulligan mechanic
-If player doesn’t possess units that are needed to secure the objective, discard objective card and pull an additional card.
- Ability to discard one or two cards per turn
• Reroll 2+ mechanic
- 3+/3+ is the best roll you can achieve
-Any reroll of a 2+ save afterwards turns into a 4+ save.

Tier 2 - changes that can be done at the tournament themselves such as the tournament packet.
• Force organization change – Can be done at each tournament themselves
-What is a source?
-Limits on Forge organization chart
-How many sources can you pull from?
• Terrain rules
-Tournaments describe area terrain and what counts being in Terrain
- Terrain coverage rules
-25% terrain determination.
LOS rules
-Can a foot anywhere on the model count as LOS? Change to line of sight to the models eyes.

Changes that should be considered
• Ignore cover
-Change this to -2 to a cover save
• Snap shot mechanic
-Make this -2 to snap shots
• Jink
-Unable to Jink if the model hasn't moved or immobilized.
• Barrage
-Barrage can now hit any floor anywhere – put limitations on it? Should it be only the top floor
• Hit and run
- All models must have hit and run instead one model that possess hit and run gives it to a whole unit or IC’s cannot pass hit and run to a unit unless the whole unit has hit and run.


Sorry for some reason it isn't liking the formatting on my bullet points...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/29 00:32:43


 
   
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Trustworthy Shas'vre






 jy2 wrote:

1. Distributed Casting. No unit can use more dice than 2x his Mastery level, plus 1/2 of the D6 pooled dice (unless there is only 1 psyker in that army, which can then use all of the D6 pooled dice).

Here’s the problem that this is trying to fix. Say you have a Lvl 3 Daemon Prince with Invisibility, the Summoning and Iron Arm. On average, it’ll take 2 dice to cast a Warp Charge 1 power with any reliablity (75% chance). Thus, to cast Summoning somewhat reliably, you need 6 dice, 4 dice for Invisibility and 2 dice for Iron Arm. Now he’s only got 6 (Level 3) +D3 dice so he needs to choose carefully which power he wants to cast.

This also forces you to allocate some dice for lesser units like Pink Horrors to cast their powers. In short, you cannot use all the dice in the dice pool just to cast the most important powers on just a couple of very important psykers. Instead, you are forced to spread out the dice.


This might be ok if you could allocate spells with any kind of reliability between psykers. However because it is random, you'll end up getting 3 good powers on one psyker and 3 naff ones on another. It just ends up meaning that you end up casting maybe one power per army... Or you get Prescience on a Lv1 psyker and can't cast it because you can only use 2 dice but need 5.


2. Limited Summoning. Cannot successfully bring in more than 1 unit per turn using Malefic Powers (including Summoning, Incursion, Sacrifice and Possession). This should make the game manageable.

This would make the game easy, not 'manageable'. Summoning armies could not exist with this. And before you shout that that is a good thing: try and build a competitive daemon list now without using summoning.

3. The New Invisibility. Any unit that shoots or assaults the targeted unit does so at BS1/WS1.
I'm in support of this, because it removes the immune to blast part of the rule while preserving the spirit. Maybe add 'successful blast hits must be re-rolled' or something to make blasts not the immediate counter.

4. Deny. You can only ever use as much Denial dice as 2x the opponent’s Power Dice, plus the D6 pooled dice.

This makes deny very unlikely for WC2 and 3 powers. One of the counters to the new psychic phase is that everything can be denied.
I think a bigger problem is that no-one has cottoned on to building psychic defense in to your army. The Psychic phase isn't that different to the Fantasy magic phase, and if you show up there without a single wizard, you've just built a terrible list and deserve to lose just as much as if you build with no anti-tank. We're just not in that mindset yet for 40k.


If you want to stop summoning, target summoning rather than the Psychic phase in general. Best ideas I've seen are:
- Summoned Daemons must take a Daemonic Instability test at the start of every turn
- Summoned Daemons must pay an upkeep cost of 1-2 WC per turn.
- Summoned Daemons must be upkept by *harnessing* 1 WC per unit per turn.
- Summoned Daemons do not gain Objective Secured.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/29 00:46:59


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Trasvi wrote:
 jy2 wrote:

1. Distributed Casting. No unit can use more dice than 2x his Mastery level, plus 1/2 of the D6 pooled dice (unless there is only 1 psyker in that army, which can then use all of the D6 pooled dice).

Here’s the problem that this is trying to fix. Say you have a Lvl 3 Daemon Prince with Invisibility, the Summoning and Iron Arm. On average, it’ll take 2 dice to cast a Warp Charge 1 power with any reliablity (75% chance). Thus, to cast Summoning somewhat reliably, you need 6 dice, 4 dice for Invisibility and 2 dice for Iron Arm. Now he’s only got 6 (Level 3) +D3 dice so he needs to choose carefully which power he wants to cast.

This also forces you to allocate some dice for lesser units like Pink Horrors to cast their powers. In short, you cannot use all the dice in the dice pool just to cast the most important powers on just a couple of very important psykers. Instead, you are forced to spread out the dice.


This might be ok if you could allocate spells with any kind of reliability between psykers. However because it is random, you'll end up getting 3 good powers on one psyker and 3 naff ones on another. It just ends up meaning that you end up casting maybe one power per army... Or you get Prescience on a Lv1 psyker and can't cast it because you can only use 2 dice but need 5.

The idea is that the psykers are forced to spread the warp dice and not allow 1 single psyker to cast all the powers. So if you have 1 psyker with all the good powers, now he has to make a choice as to which power he needs to cast. This will help to limit all the psychic craziness as well. And there shouldn't be such a thing as a psyker with all bad powers. At the very least, they can attempt the Primaris or do something like cast Flickering Fire (for Tzeentch daemons). What it will force you to do is to even out the casting so that all psykers will be able to do something rather than spending 18 dice out of, say 20 dice, on just 1 psyker casting 3 powerful spells whereas everyone else just sits and watches.


2. Limited Summoning. Cannot successfully bring in more than 1 unit per turn using Malefic Powers (including Summoning, Incursion, Sacrifice and Possession). This should make the game manageable.

This would make the game easy, not 'manageable'. Summoning armies could not exist with this. And before you shout that that is a good thing: try and build a competitive daemon list now without using summoning.

It would make the game more manageable in terms of Time. In terms of tournament play, which is what this thread is about, overloading the psychic phase with multiple summonings a turn is what will slow the game to a crawl.

And if you think that the only way daemons can remain competitive is to overload on Summoning, then you are sorely mistaken. My advice - DON'T RELY ON SUMMONING as your main strategy. Play a more well-rounded....and dare I say, a funner game.


4. Deny. You can only ever use as much Denial dice as 2x the opponent’s Power Dice, plus the D6 pooled dice.

This makes deny very unlikely for WC2 and 3 powers. One of the counters to the new psychic phase is that everything can be denied.
I think a bigger problem is that no-one has cottoned on to building psychic defense in to your army. The Psychic phase isn't that different to the Fantasy magic phase, and if you show up there without a single wizard, you've just built a terrible list and deserve to lose just as much as if you build with no anti-tank. We're just not in that mindset yet for 40k.

This is how it works. Let's say you have a marine army with 1 Lvl 2 psyker (and thus, 2 warp dice) going against a daemon army with 30 dice. There is no way in heck he will ever be able to cast any powers. The intent of this rule is to curb that. So in this case, the marines can use 2+D6 dice to cast his spells, whereas the daemon army can only use 4+D6 dice to deny it. Otherwise, there is almost no way in hell to get off any power against Daemons or the Grey Knights or Tyranids or the Seer Council for a normal army.

Moreover, why are you forced to spam psykers just to keep up with daemons, grey knights and tyranids? Am I pigeonholed into running 4 rune priests in my Space Wolves list when I actually wanted to run Logan and and a Thunderwolf Lord? The over-the-top psychic phase is going to stymie variety. Now it's going to be you either run lots of psykers or don't even bother running them at all.



If you want to stop summoning, target summoning rather than the Psychic phase in general. Best ideas I've seen are:
- Summoned Daemons must take a Daemonic Instability test at the start of every turn
- Summoned Daemons must pay an upkeep cost of 1-2 WC per turn.
- Summoned Daemons must be upkept by *harnessing* 1 WC per unit per turn.
- Summoned Daemons do not gain Objective Secured.


Decent solutions. I especially like the "Do not gain OS" rule. However, they don't do anything to address the Time issue with regards to tournament play. As a matter of fact, with the exception of the last one, they add to the Time issue as you are forced to do more bookkeeping.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/29 01:23:16



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Found some suggestions from the guys over at front line gaming as well: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/


Darkwynn wrote:
My thoughts on changes that need to be considered. Tier 1 changes are changes that need to be changed at a basic level. Tier 2 are changes that can be handled local by each tournament but need to be addressed.

Tier 1 changes
• Invisibility
o Suggestions
-Remove the need to hit on 6’s or have it a negative to hit the unit including in melee
- Revert back to shroud and stealth.
- -2 Bs when shooting at the unit and -1WS/-1 I in melee with the unit
- Other suggestions?
• Malefic removal of powers or Daemonlogy
-Remove Daemonlogy power
-Upkeep on summon units
- Look at adding summoning sickness or some type of limitations on Summoning
• Psychic Phase cap limitation of dice – What scaling of powers should be casted for a power.
-No cap depending on malefic removal of dice
-12 +d6 cap limit – Estimate 4 level 1 powers would be casted
-18+D6 Cap limit – Estimate 6 level 1 powers could be casted
-24+D6 cap limit – Estimate 9 level 1 powers could be casted
- Limit the number of dice a caster can throw at a power to ML+1 so a ML 1 caster could throw two warp charges at a power. Level 3 could throw 4.
• Deny the witch
-Bonuse to deny the witch mechanic in conjunction with blessings only.
-Difference in psyker level add +1
- Adamantium will add +1 to deny the witch on blessing
• Maelstrom mission card mechanic change
-Add a mulligan mechanic
-If player doesn’t possess units that are needed to secure the objective, discard objective card and pull an additional card.
- Ability to discard one or two cards per turn
• Reroll 2+ mechanic
- 3+/3+ is the best roll you can achieve
-Any reroll of a 2+ save afterwards turns into a 4+ save.

Tier 2 - changes that can be done at the tournament themselves such as the tournament packet.
• Force organization change – Can be done at each tournament themselves
-What is a source?
-Limits on Forge organization chart
-How many sources can you pull from?
• Terrain rules
-Tournaments describe area terrain and what counts being in Terrain
- Terrain coverage rules
-25% terrain determination.
LOS rules
-Can a foot anywhere on the model count as LOS? Change to line of sight to the models eyes.

Changes that should be considered
• Ignore cover
-Change this to -2 to a cover save
• Snap shot mechanic
-Make this -2 to snap shots
• Jink
-Unable to Jink if the model hasn't moved or immobilized.
• Barrage
-Barrage can now hit any floor anywhere – put limitations on it? Should it be only the top floor
• Hit and run
- All models must have hit and run instead one model that possess hit and run gives it to a whole unit or IC’s cannot pass hit and run to a unit unless the whole unit has hit and run.


Sorry for some reason it isn't liking the formatting on my bullet points...


Welcome to the thread Nick.
I like most of the suggestions. Can you elaborate further on your warp charge cap area? I am not sure I like being able to deny blessings with adamantium will as that is geared more to the individual model stopping things that are affecting them. I can give adamantium will to my AM vehicles and that would help me dispel your blessings on the other side of the battlefield. I do like that psykers might help dispel. Perhaps something attuned to fantasy where you get a +1 the dispel dice for a psyker you have but if you fail to deny then you cant use that psyker anymore. Note that this isnt cumulative as I would not want to see level 3 or 4 psykers shut down an entire army.

Also i just noted that the option to jink isnt removed if a model is immobilized. That is one elusive vehicle that is stuck in the mud over there.

For the psychic powers I like the idea of trying to balance it out with those new units being unstable. It is actually fluffy as those models need a warp rift to help keep them around as they will eventually dematerialize.

@thread: For the psychic phase and in particular some of the broken powers we need to find a solution that the majority of people agree upon. This is so we have one ruling that can be expected at a majority of events that we attend. There are a couple of good suggestions but not very many are on the same page.

@ Those who dont believe there is a problem: I realize you are weary of modifying the ruleset and creating hopefully a more balanced system. TBH 6th was getting to the point of needing fixed. 7th took it a step further. We cant act like this is the first time change has been suggested. How many tournaments in 6th edition did you see stronghold assault allowed, escalation, or some of the data slates? There were things that were banned from larger tournaments because of balance issues. I am not saying that unbound cant be played, or you cant run tactical objectives. By all means play them all you want. However, if you are looking to play in a competitive based tournament then I would not expect them. TO's as a whole like to level the field as much as possible so as to not see one or two broken combinations or complete out of the control randomness decide the fate of a game. If you play the maelstrom from war missions you could play a flawless game tactically and still lose miserably based completely on drawing some crappy cards. Players love the new psychic phase until they realize with the current ruleset only 3 to 4 armies will be able to use it regularly(daemons, eldar, GK/Inquisition, and maybe tyranids).

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Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)

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I like most of the suggestions. Can you elaborate further on your warp charge cap area? I am not sure I like being able to deny blessings with adamantium will as that is geared more to the individual model stopping things that are affecting them. I can give adamantium will to my AM vehicles and that would help me dispel your blessings on the other side of the battlefield. I do like that psykers might help dispel. Perhaps something attuned to fantasy where you get a +1 the dispel dice for a psyker you have but if you fail to deny then you cant use that psyker anymore. Note that this isnt cumulative as I would not want to see level 3 or 4 psykers shut down an entire army.


It just depends on how you approach the problem. The core issue is people are afraid of how warp dice scale, because of the underlying problem you are able to throw as many dice needed for your core powers. Once those go off the rest of the powers you don't care s. If there isn't a scale or some process to put those systems in check you can steam roll your opponent without any real play. Some would say this should be army compensation but the high end needs to be pulled down to level the playing field. How does a Necron book or a Ork book scale to the dice that Grey knights, daemons , Eldar or other armies?(GW could make rules real easy for it by saying only so many psykers can be in the area to use the power of the warp) The limit on the dice would be as base cap that you can hit. So if you had 20 casters that produce dice and the cap was 12. You could only generate 12 dice +d6.

Math wise I am taking into account that for every Warp charge needed to succeed you will add +1 dice. Because I see that being the average or most efficient use of Warp Charges needed and stays close enough to a LD 9 or LD 10 psyker success cast rate.

As for Dispel , the base math behind the mechanic for blessings is really flawed. Core idea is to stop things such as fortune and other blessings on a level of maledictions and witch fires. If you shift the curve down by one due to psyker level and you need a 5, I think it gives the opposing player to actual dispell those powers instead of needing a hopes prayer. There is very little in the game that can add or help with deny the witch on blessings. It doesn't need to be on parity but I think you could pull that number in close moving it from a 6+ to a 5+ in certain ways such as psyker levels or Admantium Will ( because you just ignore that blessing, besides that ability should get more play and while things that carry adamantium will rarely have psykers or low count)

The other areas as Tier 2, really comes down to TO's but they are going to need to level set those ideas. Now I think most of the TO's can get together and we are but its a starting point. Plus we have to see how these games are developed, played and see what is truly a problem.

That said the time for GW to balance a game is gone. I think the community is okay and welcomes that To's or a group of people come together who care and can put balance into the equation with logical sense and reason (hopefully above counts).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/29 02:28:45


 
   
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 jy2 wrote:
The idea is that the psykers are forced to spread the warp dice and not allow 1 single psyker to cast all the powers. So if you have 1 psyker with all the good powers, now he has to make a choice as to which power he needs to cast. This will help to limit all the psychic craziness as well. And there shouldn't be such a thing as a psyker with all bad powers. At the very least, they can attempt the Primaris or do something like cast Flickering Fire (for Tzeentch daemons). What it will force you to do is to even out the casting so that all psykers will be able to do something rather than spending 18 dice out of, say 20 dice, on just 1 psyker casting 3 powerful spells whereas everyone else just sits and watches.


I think you're trying to address a specific problem (summoning) with a solution that is too general (all psykers).
If you look at the other end of the spectrum: an army with one Lv2 psyker, trying to cast prescience and misfortune. Getting even one of those spells off will be difficult if he is capped to 4+(D6/2) dice.



It would make the game more manageable in terms of Time. In terms of tournament play, which is what this thread is about, overloading the psychic phase with multiple summonings a turn is what will slow the game to a crawl.

/shurgs. There will always be slow armies and players, and players that manage to run the same army in half the time. A tau gunline can spend more time shooting in the opponent's turn than the opponent does doing anything; a tervigon spawning horde will summon roughly the same amount of models as a daemon summoning army (at least in the first turns) and doesn't have the advantage of quick deployment via no scatter deep strike. Deal with slow summoning players the same way that you deal with anyone else in tournaments.

And if you think that the only way daemons can remain competitive is to overload on Summoning, then you are sorely mistaken. My advice - DON'T RELY ON SUMMONING as your main strategy. Play a more well-rounded....and dare I say, a funner game.

It's nice of you to say that, but the main competitive daemon builds have been severely nerfed. Witchfire powers are now much more costly, much less likely to be cast, more likely to damage the caster, and more likely to be dispelled. A unit can't cast multiples of the same witchfire (so no Screamerstar or Pinkstar with 4 Tzeralds). Screamerstar with Heralds can't Jink if they want to witchfire the next turn. FMCs took a severe nerf to their offensive power (vector strikes toned down and can't charge on the turn they land). The only competitive daemon list that didn't take a severe beating was hound rush, and that was a mid-tier army at best.

Plus now *every non-daemon psyker in the game* has reliable access to Santic - Banishment, which halves the survivability of all Daemon units.


This is how it works. Let's say you have a marine army with 1 Lvl 2 psyker (and thus, 2 warp dice) going against a daemon army with 30 dice. There is no way in heck he will ever be able to cast any powers. The intent of this rule is to curb that. So in this case, the marines can use 2+D6 dice to cast his spells, whereas the daemon army can only use 4+D6 dice to deny it. Otherwise, there is almost no way in hell to get off any power against Daemons or the Grey Knights or Tyranids or the Seer Council for a normal army.


I think the mathematics of this don't really end up changing anything much. You have one WC2 spell that you really need to get off with your Lv2 psyker? You use all your dice (say, d6=4 so 6 dice total) and get 3 successes; the daemon player now rolls 16 - which is probably what was going to happen anyway. You just cap the psychic-heavy player at a 50% dispel chance instead of 75% if he used all 22 dice.
The reality of it is: Yes, if one army stacks psykers and the other doesn't, the stacking player is going to dominate the psychic phase. That shouldn't come as a surprise, and preventing it seems arbitrary. Does a player that stacks melee units then get to whinge and nerf shooty armies to D6 shots per unit to make it fair? Does a player with weak melee units get to reduce his opponent's initiative to 3 or attacks to 2 to stop him dominating the assault phase before the weak models get a chance to do anything?


   
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I am an off and on tournament player that typically does pretty good without going overboard on abuse. Here are my thoughts.

1) No more then two sources, inquisition counts as one source
2) Remove the entire Malefic Powers, this would then eliminate the need to have a limit on warp charge
3) Change invisibility to the old version or remove and replace it with something else.
4) No unbound lists
5) No Maelstrom cards
   
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Tournament Armies should be drawn from 2 sources only: 1 primary detachment, and 1 other source. Some folks like Formations here, some don't. Some want to see armies able to ally with themselves, some don't. But in general, expect to see 1 primary and 1 allied detachment at tournaments. That is fair, allows for tons of creativity in list building and avoids the situation we had at Adepticon where you had 9/16 finalists with Inquisition...because why WOULDN'T you take one if you can? The paradox of choice is that more choices allowed to players equals less variety as everyone cherry picks the best stuff. No Unbounds lists. Perhaps for specialized events bu in general, it just does not work. No, we do not need to try it first to see, simple logic dictates that this is a truism. No Maelstrom Cards as they are right now. I love the idea of the cards but we've played 8 games with them now and they simply do not work as they are presented in the book. 7/8 games the player that drew the better hand in the first draw won the game regardless of what happened in the game. The 8th game, the player with the better hand tied despite having 4 models left and being about to get tabled. The core mechanic of them simply does't work. With modifications, they could be a lot of fun, but as is: not for tournaments. The Psychic Phase needs work. If you don't spam Psykers, the new psychic phase is great! It is harder to get powers off than before, and really helps to even out the power of psykers. However, when you spam out psykers, the wheels come off the ship. Combined with Malefic powers, you can reliably bring around 40 Warp Charge Dice to the game which just dramatically throws this phase out of whack and makes the game unenjoyable. Some folks may like the idea of facing an army that can reliably bring 500+ points of new units onto the table every turn, but the vast majority of gamers will not. It is quite clearly a broken game mechanic. Armies that dramatically skew the warp charge pool will cause all kinds of problems. We need to either limit Warp Charge or in some way limit the psychic phase to bring some balance to the equation. Invisibility is way too good. No one I have spoken to thinks otherwise. We have to ban this or tone it down somehow. As I stated over at Frontline, a T6 target with a reroll 2+ save (which, damn it, are still in the game for some stupid reason) + invisibility will be indestructible. A Bolter has a 1/1296 chance of actually hurting this unit. And, with 40+ warp charge to throw at psychic powers, it is not unlikely at all to get this off every turn I'm wondering what the upper limit on Warp Charge Dice needs to be. ????if they remove invisibility, and remove daemonic summoning tree no one would care about warp dice
   
 
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