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Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator






 44Ronin wrote:
 Goliath wrote:
44Ronin wrote:Read my first and second post, third one too. How more specific can I be?. I can't help your incorrect comprehension.

44Ronin wrote:sarcasm is beyond some.

44Ronin wrote:I specifically mentioned the suit itself. Reading is not hard for most.

44Ronin wrote:It appears you massively lack basic comprehension.
You talk of strawman when you are the only one doing it.

As for the handwaving off American war crimes, it does not surprise me considering you foam at the mouth.

Now as I said either apologise or don't bother posting in response.

Dude, seriously. Quit it with this whole "I'm the smartest one here, I'm dealing with a bunch of children, oh woe is me why must I deal with these plebians?" schtick. It's not funny, it massively undermines your argument. ("Stop using ad hominem attacks you idiot") and generally makes you come across as an unlikeable arsehole.


So tell how do you deal with mob who turn a molehill into a mountain?

Debate with them politely. Provide evidence to back up an assertion which goes against the majority view, namely, everyone knows GITMO inmates are treated like gak (but they do have good healthcare), and everyone knows that the Taliban tortures prisoners to death. If you can't provide evidence, explain your reasoning.

Also, Rule #1. Read it, learn it, abide by it. If others don't, then you have the yellow triangle of friendship, or you can put them on your ignore list.

See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




It'll be interesting to see how Sgt Bergdahl and his family adjusts to his freedom.
Living under that tension all those years to suddenly have it released has probably got to have some serious emotional and physical consequences making me wonder what measures are in place to help them with the decompression.
It'll seriously be some intense living, I imagine, with everyone viewing on the news those first weeks back.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/02 12:50:35


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The news article states that the US got the POW in exchange for 5 Gitmo detainees.

Wouldn't this count as negotiating with terrorists?

"Hey, Taliban, you want some of your bros out of prison? Just capture some of our dudes and we'll trade you."

Let me first say that I'm really happy Bergdahl is home now.

I can't image what he's going through and he should be given whatever the feth he needs.

On the flip side... I can't help to wince at how this is handled...

We now have an administration that's willing to negotiate with Terrorists here. What this says to me is that every American abroad is now "open season".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/02 14:41:34


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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Every other country that has always negotiated is dealing with it just fine though.
   
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Catskills in NYS

 whembly wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
The news article states that the US got the POW in exchange for 5 Gitmo detainees.

Wouldn't this count as negotiating with terrorists?

"Hey, Taliban, you want some of your bros out of prison? Just capture some of our dudes and we'll trade you."

Let me first say that I'm really happy Bergdahl is home now.

I can't image what he's going through and he should be given whatever the feth he needs.

On the flip side... I can't help to wince at how this is handled...

We now have an administration that's willing to negotiate with Terrorists here. What this says to me is that every American abroad is now "open season".

Really? I don't see how this will cause them o target Americans any more than they do now.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
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 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Really? I don't see how this will cause them o target Americans any more than they do now.


These guys lay out a case: http://intelcenter.com/reports/bergdahl-trade/

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
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WA

 -Shrike- wrote:
Debate with them politely. Provide evidence to back up an assertion which goes against the majority view, namely, everyone knows GITMO inmates are treated like gak (but they do have good healthcare), and everyone knows that the Taliban tortures prisoners to death. If you can't provide evidence, explain your reasoning.

Also, Rule #1. Read it, learn it, abide by it. If others don't, then you have the yellow triangle of friendship, or you can put them on your ignore list.


All I've seen is everyone else dance around his posts and just call him names. Reading this thread he's seeming to be the cooler head despite arguing for a controversial viewpoint.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/02 16:33:32


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Made in us
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Relapse wrote:
It'll be interesting to see how Sgt Bergdahl and his family adjusts to his freedom.
Living under that tension all those years to suddenly have it released has probably got to have some serious emotional and physical consequences making me wonder what measures are in place to help them with the decompression.
It'll seriously be some intense living, I imagine, with everyone viewing on the news those first weeks back.


Honestly, the more I see around, some of his comments from pre-"capture" and from his dad... I want to see him get off a plane in the US, and right into handcuffs.

Yeah, we didn't classify him as a deserter at the time, but the more that comes out, the more that particular picture is painted. Seriously, feth this guy.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
 -Shrike- wrote:
Debate with them politely. Provide evidence to back up an assertion which goes against the majority view, namely, everyone knows GITMO inmates are treated like gak (but they do have good healthcare), and everyone knows that the Taliban tortures prisoners to death. If you can't provide evidence, explain your reasoning.

Also, Rule #1. Read it, learn it, abide by it. If others don't, then you have the yellow triangle of friendship, or you can put them on your ignore list.


All I've seen is everyone else dance around his posts and just call him names. Reading this thread he's seeming to be the cooler head despite arguing for a controversial viewpoint.


I don't know why CptJake gets a free pass for starting it either. All Ronin did was state one specific prisoner was treated better than Gitmo detainees and CptJake jumped down his throat with baseless accusations. It appears DakkaDakka is open minded until it comes to the Middle East and then being a nationalistic blowhard is all well and good.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
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CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 trexmeyer wrote:
 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
 -Shrike- wrote:
Debate with them politely. Provide evidence to back up an assertion which goes against the majority view, namely, everyone knows GITMO inmates are treated like gak (but they do have good healthcare), and everyone knows that the Taliban tortures prisoners to death. If you can't provide evidence, explain your reasoning.

Also, Rule #1. Read it, learn it, abide by it. If others don't, then you have the yellow triangle of friendship, or you can put them on your ignore list.


All I've seen is everyone else dance around his posts and just call him names. Reading this thread he's seeming to be the cooler head despite arguing for a controversial viewpoint.


I don't know why CptJake gets a free pass for starting it either. All Ronin did was state one specific prisoner was treated better than Gitmo detainees and CptJake jumped down his throat with baseless accusations. It appears DakkaDakka is open minded until it comes to the Middle East and then being a nationalistic blowhard is all well and good.


Here is my first response:

Bull gak. Plain and simple bull gak. The detainees in GITMO get great health care (which clearly Bergdahl did not) and plenty of other amenities.

As for Talibs executing prisoners: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=511_1312501657


Care to show what part of that seems to meet your criteria as a baseless accusation? Note: I responded specifically to:

If you can cite the executed POW's then we'll talk about it. Otherwise I suggest you apologise for your "troll" comment.

Bergdahl was treated better than a gitmo inmate, beyond any doubt.


I showed Talibs executing prisoners, and gave an example of GITMO prisoners being treated better than Bergdahl. Has Ronin ever posted any legit source backing his claim Bergdahl was treated well?

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator






 trexmeyer wrote:
 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
 -Shrike- wrote:
Debate with them politely. Provide evidence to back up an assertion which goes against the majority view, namely, everyone knows GITMO inmates are treated like gak (but they do have good healthcare), and everyone knows that the Taliban tortures prisoners to death. If you can't provide evidence, explain your reasoning.

Also, Rule #1. Read it, learn it, abide by it. If others don't, then you have the yellow triangle of friendship, or you can put them on your ignore list.


All I've seen is everyone else dance around his posts and just call him names. Reading this thread he's seeming to be the cooler head despite arguing for a controversial viewpoint.


I don't know why CptJake gets a free pass for starting it either. All Ronin did was state one specific prisoner was treated better than Gitmo detainees and CptJake jumped down his throat with baseless accusations. It appears DakkaDakka is open minded until it comes to the Middle East and then being a nationalistic blowhard is all well and good.

My comment can apply to everyone.

See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
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TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. 
   
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http://nypost.com/2014/05/31/the-bizarre-tale-of-americas-last-known-pow/



-“I am ashamed to be an American. And the title of US soldier is just the lie of fools,” he concluded. “I am sorry for everything. The horror that is America is disgusting.”

This quote was given prior to him leaving the base to be "captured" by the Taliban... As I said, feth him. His actions DIRECTLY led to 6 soldiers dying, and who knows how many have been indirectly affected by his desertion.
   
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The Great State of New Jersey

Ack, I'm late to the party!

 44Ronin wrote:
 CptJake wrote:


You really have no clue what you are talking about.

Suicides? Any irony that a tactic seen as legit by the Talibs includes strapping explosives to a guy and having him suicide while killing others? And it isn't as if suicides are unique to or were even over represented in GITMO. Hell, vets are capping themselves daily.
Solitary confinement is bad? We have it in all our prisons, not unique to GITMO nor necessarily a bad thing.
And sleep deprivation? As part of interrogation I have zero problems with it, or with sensory deprivation.

But regardless, your strawman is nothing but that. You have no evidence the Talibs treat prisoners better than the US military, and in fact it isn't too hard to find documented cases of their brutality as a systemic issue as opposed to aberrations which US troops get punished for. The article I posted with video of Talibs murdering prisoners is not unique. Do you suppose those Talibs were prosecuted by their leadership, and then punished?


It appears you massively lack basic comprehension.
You talk of strawman when you are the only one doing it.

It is very simple to understand.
I said, this one guy was treated better than Gitmo prisoners. It's very simple. You take out out of the original context to apply to the larger group. I wasn't talking about the larger group I was talking about this ONE GUY.


For this to hold true your argument requires that ALL Gitmo detainees to be treated terribly, and that is not the case, ergo you cannot argue that he was treated better than Gitmo prisoners, as some Gitmo prisoners were treated better than he was.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The news article states that the US got the POW in exchange for 5 Gitmo detainees.

Wouldn't this count as negotiating with terrorists?

"Hey, Taliban, you want some of your bros out of prison? Just capture some of our dudes and we'll trade you."


Technically speaking I believe the Taliban are classified as a political entity, as they were the former government of Afghanaland.

Here is the list of things the Gitmo inmates have been subjected to:

Humiliation tactics
Sleep Deprivation
Sensory Deprivation
Solitary Confinement
Forced Medication
Use of Dogs to Scare Detainees
Temperature Extremes
Sensory Bombardment

Now if you could please offer to specify what they did to Bergdahl in comparison?


Again, things done to *some* Gitmo detainees. Dont confuse the injustices suffered by a visible minority reported about in the media with things that happened to EVERY detainee.

I interviewed Mamdouh Habib, a renditon victim who was never formally charged for any crime within detention, despite having settled out of court with the Australian government to absolve the aforementioned government of any liability in his treatment during his detention by the United States.


Uh huh, and I'm the SEAL who capped OBL since we're making unsubstantiated claims. Regardless of which, there is some controversy regarding some of the claims made by Mamdouh Habib, so that doesn't mean a lot relative to events which are actually documented, so theres a bit of a credibility issue there. Beyond that, we have people that have first hand experience with Gitmo, and I know people myself who were stationed there (at the detention center, not just the base) who have explained to me first hand what the situation is like and how, while some truly terrible things happened there, that was very much in the minority and not a common occurrence. Considering how consistent the descriptions I've heard from person to person (and from people who theoretically shouldn't know one another), I'm inclined to believe it, unless some sort of big government conspiracy has them all touting the 'company line'.

 44Ronin wrote:
Relapse wrote:


Actually, you're throwing around the big claims about personal interviews with nothing to back them..


It's not like he was at hyde park, sydney on september 8th 2007 to talk to people :sarcasm:

hang on... he actually was...


Doesn't mean he was telling the whole truth. Embellishment is a common feature of storytelling, the truth rarely resembles what is told, though its usually never too far off (if you're doing it right).


Okay, now that I've got my two cents in, I'll withhold judgement on Bergdahl, I don't think he *intended* to end up in that situation or to harm anyone, though what exactly did occur is definitely suspect. Personally, I'm a little more creeped out by the beard on his father....


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/02 17:33:24


CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 44Ronin wrote:
 Jihadin wrote:
Since you appear to have first hand knowledge on Enhance Interrogation technique compare to "Torture" interrogation you should know the difference between the two.


I interviewed Mamdouh Habib, a renditon victim


Are you a member of the press? What magazine, newspaper, or other journalistic group/association do you work for?

 44Ronin wrote:
Relapse wrote:


Actually, you're throwing around the big claims about personal interviews with nothing to back them..


It's not like he was at hyde park, sydney on september 8th 2007 to talk to people :sarcasm:


Oh, you went to a speech he gave and that makes you an interviewer?

I saw Florence and the Machine in concert. I was her boyfriend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
http://nypost.com/2014/05/31/the-bizarre-tale-of-americas-last-known-pow/


Bizarre, indeed. Sounds like he was going off the deep end, there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/02 17:40:55


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
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 kronk wrote:

I saw Florence and the Machine in concert. I was her boyfriend.


Coming from you Kronk, I can believe that
   
Made in us
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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
http://nypost.com/2014/05/31/the-bizarre-tale-of-americas-last-known-pow/



-“I am ashamed to be an American. And the title of US soldier is just the lie of fools,” he concluded. “I am sorry for everything. The horror that is America is disgusting.”

This quote was given prior to him leaving the base to be "captured" by the Taliban... As I said, feth him. His actions DIRECTLY led to 6 soldiers dying, and who knows how many have been indirectly affected by his desertion.


His actions did not lead directly to anything. It was the decision of an officer somewhere along the line to waste time and resources searching for a known dissenter and probable deserter.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






All I remember when it happen was the 110% accountability, being read General Order Number One, written counseling on every single one of soldiers and NCO's about General Order Number One with emphasis on the "No Sex", being collared into the SGT Major office along with others and getting reamed out just in case one of ours sneak off the FoB for a piece of non existence tushie being they caught one of our's (that stood the Hell out).

In turn we all went back to our respective platoons. Repeat the process of reaming out the platoon for even thinking they might get laid for real on FoB or off FoB. Then dropping the reason why. Then being asked how dumb can a guy get. Lower enlistee can do the damndest things

Also the US Army auto promotes POWS/MIA's

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The Great State of New Jersey

Its called accountability, its kind of a big deal in the military. It wasn't so much a decision as it was a requirement.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
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chaos0xomega wrote:
Its called accountability, its kind of a big deal in the military. It wasn't so much a decision as it was a requirement.


That's an institutional problem.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
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Oh I know but the physical/visible verification of troops was wanted "now".

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
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RIP Muhammad Ali.

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chaos0xomega wrote:
Personally, I'm a little more creeped out by the beard on his father....

What...?
*google image search*
Some things cannot be unseen.

See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. 
   
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New Orleans, LA

 Jihadin wrote:
All I remember when it happen was the 110% accountability, being read General Order Number One


GONO?

<--- Naive civilian, here.

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 kronk wrote:
 Jihadin wrote:
All I remember when it happen was the 110% accountability, being read General Order Number One


GONO?

<--- Naive civilian, here.



It's basically a long-standing "General Order" that applies to all service members in a warzone.... Boils down to No Booze, No Sex (though usually, they turn a blind eye to this, if there's no fraternization or adultery... especially if it's a dual military couple in the same base)
   
Made in us
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
The news article states that the US got the POW in exchange for 5 Gitmo detainees.

Wouldn't this count as negotiating with terrorists?

"Hey, Taliban, you want some of your bros out of prison? Just capture some of our dudes and we'll trade you."

Let me first say that I'm really happy Bergdahl is home now.

I can't image what he's going through and he should be given whatever the feth he needs.

On the flip side... I can't help to wince at how this is handled...

We now have an administration that's willing to negotiate with Terrorists here. What this says to me is that every American abroad is now "open season".

Really? I don't see how this will cause them o target Americans any more than they do now.

Americans had a general policy of NOT negotiating with Terrorists.

Think about it for a bit.

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 whembly wrote:

Americans had a general policy of NOT negotiating with Terrorists.

Think about it for a bit.



IIRC, it's not only policy, but the LAW to not negotiate with terrorists.
   
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 trexmeyer wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Its called accountability, its kind of a big deal in the military. It wasn't so much a decision as it was a requirement.


That's an institutional problem.

Absolutely. The military really should just let people wander off whenever they feel like it. Even more in warzones. Gotta fight the power, man.
   
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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Americans had a general policy of NOT negotiating with Terrorists.

Think about it for a bit.



IIRC, it's not only policy, but the LAW to not negotiate with terrorists.

Isn't it also the law that the POTUS has to advise Congress of the release of any GITMO detainees before they are released so they may raise national security concerns?

 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

If we don't negotiate with terrorists then this guy was not a POW and no American soldier captured will ever be a POW.

I always thought the whole "we don't negotiate" deal was a stupid cowboy mindset on our part. But I think it is a giant "feth you" to our armed forces to deprive them of POW status because you want to play the "they are terrorists, not combatants" game with our own prisoners.
   
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The Great State of New Jersey

 Seaward wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Its called accountability, its kind of a big deal in the military. It wasn't so much a decision as it was a requirement.


That's an institutional problem.

Absolutely. The military really should just let people wander off whenever they feel like it. Even more in warzones. Gotta fight the power, man.


Yeah, that 'problem' is perhaps one of the most comforting things to a lot of our service members, the 'no man left behind' is a bit of a morale boost, but yeah, you know, institutional problems and all that.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/02 18:28:10


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