Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You've yet to prove that they're using the game term instead of the term that means "small copies of something". Provide something that proves that they're 'models' in a rules sense, because we've shown you multiple times where they lack certain requirements for them to be considered models according to the rules.

Sunhero,
I also bring your attention to this one again:
Special rules that allow an owning player to move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins... - Aerial Support, Flyers

This one just flat out requires that a Unit is placed into Reserves before Rules which trigger at the Start of the Game, then goes on to denies certain Rules from functioning during this period of time. This makes sense as well, for you brought up a big problem yourself: Before / Start of Game Rules can be resolved in the order of a random player. If Reserves and Start of Game are the same point on the Timeline, then all the Rules which trigger at Start of Game also trigger at the very same time as Reserves. Might not seem too bad till you realize this would include any Reserve altering Rules, for there is no period of time between Reserves and Start of Game to resolve them in.

By random chance one might be forced to resolve the Web-Way Portal before any Unit can be placed into Reserves....

On the topic of Citadel Scenery,
Game Workshop produces a line of plastic miniatures that are literally called The Citadel Scenery, and I do despise this fact because it makes it very difficult to understand just what they mean when they refer to 'Scenery Models' in some of the terrain sections of the books. The concept that they are referring to something by a proper name is a good explanation as to why these so called 'models' do not meet the Rule requirements to actually be called Models. Given that a great deal of Rules will suddenly apply to Scenery if we do not accept this concept as accurate, Rules that do not function if applied to anything lacking at least a Profile, we have a massive issue forming. So if you are requiring us to accept them as Models to allow yet anything clearly unintended Rule interactions I will bring you my favourite:-

Defence Line is purchased and deployed in a circle
Each segment is a different Model, it is referenced as X segment pieces after all
Each segment belongs on a single Datasheet, and is purchased for a single slot, so they become Units
Independent Character is deployed in the centre of the segments, 2 inches from one of them
Joins at the Start of the Game

All Default Wounds must be allocated to the closest Model
Segment has no Wound Characteristic to lower to 0
Segment can not be removed as a Casualty
Independent Character is now immune to all default attacks, some Special Rules might still get the actual Model in the ring of non-profiled things....

The Rules simply do not allow Fortification to trigger Model / Unit related Rules, this is why the Authors dedicated pages pages to allow certain Fortifications to act very similar to Models.

Terrain Type. - meduim building.

we have established that a building becomes a unit at the start of the game is it then a unit that does not contain a model? can you target or fire with something some thing that is not a model?
In short a building is a model its insanely obvious.
it says so multiple time in the book.

Sunhero wrote:
we have established that a building becomes a unit at the start of the game is it then a unit that does not contain a model? can you target or fire with something some thing that is not a model?
In short a building is a model its insanely obvious.
it says so multiple time in the book.

The book specifically tells you when to treat it as a unit ( like for shooting). If it doesn't say "treat this building as a unit type: vehicle for the purpose of Reserves" then you can't use it as a unit for reserves or for anything else that isn't listed (like being joined by an Independent Character as Jinx has pointed out.). It's still not a book defined 'Model' during all this unless it specifically says it is.

Zimko wrote:

Sunhero wrote:
we have established that a building becomes a unit at the start of the game is it then a unit that does not contain a model? can you target or fire with something some thing that is not a model?
In short a building is a model its insanely obvious.
it says so multiple time in the book.

The book specifically tells you when to treat it as a unit ( like for shooting). If it doesn't say "treat this building as a unit type: vehicle for the purpose of Reserves" then you can't use it as a unit for reserves or for anything else that isn't listed (like being joined by an Independent Character as Jinx has pointed out.). It's still not a book defined 'Model' during all this unless it specifically says it is.

So I'm going to deploy my Archon and friends in the building on the table. My allied C'tan is going to use his super powers to make D3 friendly units go into reserve.
Once embarked, the building does count as a unit, like the rule book says multiple times. Now that it's a unit, the C'tan can target it with his power.
Now that it's in reserve, the Archon can use the webway rules to allow it to deep strike.
What's better, If said building has an escape hatch, that's placed when you embark, and I think left behind when you C'tan it into reserve.

Really though, the whole point is pretty moot. I haven't seen any tactical use for the building being able to deep strike.

Necrons and Dark Eldar are 'Come The Apocalypse' allies. Therefore the C'tan could not use Grand Illusion on the Dark Eldar since they're not 'friendly units'.

"A claimed building is a unit in the controlling players army." p.112
so unless your saying theirs a unit that does not have any models in it then its a building is a model.

plus the fact that on p.183 it refers to buildings as models multiple times would leave me with general impression that a building is a model.

p.132 "which ever method you use models must ether deploy within the deployment zone or be held in reserve." these means that a building can go into reserve.

which means the wwp woks on buildings

Its not complicated when you see the right sections in the book and just chose not to arbitrarily ignore passages in the brb because you don't like the way there written.

Please provide a rules quote that equates unit=model.

p.10 distance between units are always measured to and from the bases of the closest models.

there for all units contain models.

started looking on page 8 I'm shore there are more references

When it tells you to treat a building as a unit, then that's what you do. Normally, units have models but this is an exception.

 Ghaz wrote:
Please provide a rules quote that equates unit=model.

Page 9, under the rule for what a unit is.
A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single powerful model such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster is also considered to be aunit in its own right.

So normally a unit is multiple models, but a unit may also be a single model.

You cant seriously be arguing that a building is not a model.
Its really plain if you look it it objectively and not in the context of this argument that a building is a model.

Sunhero wrote:
You cant seriously be arguing that a building is not a model.
Its really plain if you look it it objectively and not in the context of this argument that a building is a model.

Or, a lone character is not a model, but is a unit.
Which would be awesome, it's make him immune to all kinds of stuff.

A building is not a unit, until the first turn of the game has begun.

This has already been proven in this very thread with quotes by other posters.

When you place the building into reserves, it is not a unit yet and thus does not gain deep strike from the WWP.

Sunhero wrote:
You cant seriously be arguing that a building is not a model.
Its really plain if you look it it objectively and not in the context of this argument that a building is a model.

And if it was, you could provide rules support to back up your claims. As Eihnlazer has pointed out, it has been proven in this thread with actual rules quotes to back them up that it's not a unit until the game has begun. Please provide actual rules quotes to back up your position that it is a unit before the game begins.

Building is a model quotes just a few
1."it will be clearly stated on the models data sheet."p112
2."the building that make up a multi-part building are treated as separate models...." p.112
3. "if the model has armour values"p.183

I could go on but theirs no point.

A building is a model so can go in reserve
(p.132 "Which ever method you use models must ether deploy within the deployment zone or be held in reserve.")
A claimed building is a unit in the controlling players army. p.112
your combined unit and ic mounted in building makes it a unit because its then claimed.( this happens in reserve)

It then gains the deep strike rule from the wwp and the rest is history.

I have gone through every stage in minute detail I don't think there's any thing else to say.

And again, where does it say that you can place a non-unit in reserve? It's not a unit until the game begins and its too late to place it in reserve.

p.132 "Which ever method you use models must ether deploy within the deployment zone or be held in reserve."

See im not arguing that it cannot be placed in reserves.


Im arguing that the archon himself cant embark it and Deep strike cannot be conferred to it because it is not a unit until the game begins.

It is obviously a model, but that has no bearing here.

You cannot embark into it until the start of the game when it becomes a unit.

Your combined unit and ic mounted in building makes it a unit because its then claimed.( this happens in reserve)

the 'combined reserve units' section brb p.135 right hand column allows the wwp carrying character to be embarked in reserve.

"if a unit enter a building they immediately capture and claim that building"p.112

"moving into a building works the same as embarking and disembarking a vehicle" ..."all of the normal rules apply" p.110 bottom left hand pargraph

Sunhero, buildings are Models, correct?
Models have a statline, correct?
Models also have a unit type, correct?
What is the building's unit type?

And please note, that "Building" is a type of terrain, not a unit type.

Building is a model quotes just a few
1."it will be clearly stated on the models data sheet."p112
2."the building that make up a multi-part building are treated as separate models...." p.112
3. "if the model has armour values"p.183

I could go on but theirs no point.

Sunhero wrote:
Building is a model quotes just a few
1."it will be clearly stated on the models data sheet."p112
2."the building that make up a multi-part building are treated as separate models...." p.112
3. "if the model has armour values"p.183

I could go on but theirs no point.

So are you at least going to answer my questions? Seeing as how your entire argument is based on buildings being models, you should be able to answer.

infantry units
vehicles
implaced weapons
buildings
are all models

it says so in the brb

I have provided multiple quotes that state that a building is a model.
when a building is claimed is a unit with out a unit type.
and when its just a model its a model with out a unit type.

Sunhero, why are you ignoring my questions? I've asked 4 questions that should be simple to answer, yet instead you just keep posting that buildings are models.

Do models have stat lines, yes or no?
Do models have a unit type, yes or no?
Do buildings have a unit type, yes or no?
If a building has a unit type, what is it?

1.not all models no has an aspect profile in data sheet
2. not all models
3. when a building is claimed is a unit with out a unit type.
and when its just a model its a model with out a unit type.

Sunhero wrote:
1.not all models no
2. not all models
3. when a building is claimed is a unit with out a unit type.
and when its just a model its a model with out a unit type.

So then the rules do not say "Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has aprofile that lists the values of its characteristics." nor "In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section."?

Yep it says that but it also says building are models in black and white so you go with the specific rule rather than the general.

also says on the same page units are made up of models

Except you're not going with a 'specific rule' as there's not a specific rule that says battlefield terrain is a unit despite not have a characteristic profile or a unit type. You're trying to use GWs inconsistent wording to justify that battlefield terrain is a model when by the rules it's not and that the rules Happyjew just quoted simply are not true.