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 Bottle wrote:
The web bundles shouldn't be thought of in the context of "3 for the price of 2" style offers, but more akin to a mannequin in a shop window wearing a combination of clothing items to show the consumer what a whole "outfit" may look like.

I agree. But I also think there should be two styles. The web bundle like you said, that provides a "complete" army with no savings. But there should also be a Battleforce that provides certain units, say 2 Rhinos and 2 tac quads or something) for 75-80% of the price.

 Murenius wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Given how rapidly their sales are falling I daresay GW have been proven very very wrong on this count.

Doesn't necessarily have a direct relation. Sales could be falling in other areas, but be ok with those bundles. Also, what the guy above said, a generally decreasing market or market share would result in falling sales throughout all sales channels.

My point was that these bundles with no discounts where part of a larger business plan and general mentality that they are a boutique company and sales would undermine that somehow.

Given that GW has seen no growth beyond inflation and then the crash of the last financial report during a period where the wider tabletop hobby has been experiencing unprecidented growth I think I can objectively say GWs current business plan is failing.

One could argue that if they did offer a sale or something they would be doing even worse than they are now but I'd argue the burden of proof is on the person claiming competing in a market would be worse than not.

I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

 jason1977 wrote:
I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

+1..... many times over.

Even special order items don't take long to get in and are 15-25% off. And my local GW store employee is a dick.

However, GW store are fun to go into to drool at boxes and plan out the next several years of my free time

 jason1977 wrote:
I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

I get a good discount at my flgs. Not as good as I'd get on ebay, but fair. That considered, the added benefit of contributing to my local economy and helping to keep afloat a local independent gaming shop, which, to be honest, I play at rarely, but is available for almost any immediate hobby needs I may have, is worth the extra money every time.

 jasper76 wrote:

 jason1977 wrote:
I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

I get a good discount at my flgs. Not as good as I'd get on ebay, but fair. That considered, the added benefit of contributing to my local economy and helping to keep afloat a local independent gaming shop, which, to be honest, I play at rarely, but is available for almost any immediate hobby needs I may have, is worth the extra money every time.

Plus, they probably carry non-GW stuff

Talys wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 jason1977 wrote:
I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

I get a good discount at my flgs. Not as good as I'd get on ebay, but fair. That considered, the added benefit of contributing to my local economy and helping to keep afloat a local independent gaming shop, which, to be honest, I play at rarely, but is available for almost any immediate hobby needs I may have, is worth the extra money every time.

Plus, they probably carry non-GW stuff

Oh yeah...I dare say, they carry mostly non-GW stuff, but they always have plenty of each and every non-special order GW box on stock, plus a lovely resale bin where the seller names their own price

<---removed local plug, in case the GW cops are on patrol --->

Talys wrote:Even special order items don't take long to get in and are 15-25% off.

My local places don't offer discount on direct only stuff as the wholesale price is higher so they can't offer the same discounts. Unless by "special order items" you just mean regular order items that they don't have on the shelf.

If it's not on the shelf I don't order stuff in any more as GW so often screws around with my FLGS and takes ages to deliver the product.

Murenius wrote:The relevant keywords are "demand function", "price elasticity", "opportunity/alternative costs" and "lock-in effect".

I think the lock in effect for GW is overstated. There is definitely a group of 40k crack addicts who will just keep buying GW stuff, not denying that, but I think there's a huge group of people who have bought 1 or 2 boxes of stuff then gone no further with it. I know tons of people who when you mention Warhammer will tell you they've bought some things but didn't continue with it. Peoples' houses I've gone in and seen boxes with the GW branding and I ask them about it and they say that's all they have.

I don't think GW have the luxury of thinking that a couple of sales means they've locked in a customer.

As for the other stuff, that's all up for debate. We know GW think their customers are price insensitive and their supply/demand curve is a vertical line of constant quantity, yet anecdotally we see people quitting because of the price all the time. Just because there's a group of addicts who are price insensitive doesn't mean the customer base as a whole is price insensitive.

But it's all conjecture, all we know is GW has been moving less product at a higher price from their reports, we don't know if they have less customers (and I doubt they know either) or the exact cause of it (and again I doubt they know either).

It's sad that GW doesn't give ANYTHING back to the consumer at all. I bought a bunch of the apoc formations as well as two of the SM battle companies (I really should have stopped at one). But they were really good deals.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But it's all conjecture, all we know is GW has been moving less product at a higher price from their reports, we don't know if they have less customers (and I doubt they know either) or the exact cause of it (and again I doubt they know either).

Their revenue and profits are declining, and as you say they're moving less product at higher prices. Its simple maths: they have less customers. People who continue to play the game but don't buy anything from them aren't customers. Whether they know why or not is an interesting question, but i'm more interested in knowing if they care. The explanation i've heard that makes the most sense to me suggests that they don't.

 Torga_DW wrote:
Its simple maths: they have less customers.

My point was that the only thing we know is they are selling less product, the rest is conjecture... you can't say they definitely have less customers without more information than we have. I tend to think they do have less customers, but there's no way to tell if they have the same number (or possibly even more) customers who are just buying less.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Its simple maths: they have less customers.

My point was that the only thing we know is they are selling less product, the rest is conjecture... you can't say they definitely have less customers without more information than we have. I tend to think they do have less customers, but there's no way to tell if they have the same number (or possibly even more) customers who are just buying less.

Possibly, i fail to grasp the logic that would indicate this though. They're selling less product at higher prices and making less money, i don't see how that indicates the same level (or possibly even more) of customers. Not trying to be snarky with that, i just don't see how it's plausible. Especially when rival companies are growing. The problem with the price rises is it makes it harder for people to make the small impulse buys and remain a customer because there's literally nothing within that price range except paint.

 Torga_DW wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Its simple maths: they have less customers.

My point was that the only thing we know is they are selling less product, the rest is conjecture... you can't say they definitely have less customers without more information than we have. I tend to think they do have less customers, but there's no way to tell if they have the same number (or possibly even more) customers who are just buying less.

Possibly, i fail to grasp the logic that would indicate this though. They're selling less product at higher prices and making less money, i don't see how that indicates the same level (or possibly even more) of customers. Not trying to be snarky with that, i just don't see how it's plausible. Especially when rival companies are growing. The problem with the price rises is it makes it harder for people to make the small impulse buys and remain a customer because there's literally nothing within that price range except paint.

It's not overly hard to explain why it might be the case (and I'm not saying it is the case), but GW are the largest company in wargaming, if they are starting to reach the point of saturation where most people who would be interested in wargaming are already wargamers and already know of 40k through video games and what not, so they can't massively grow their customer base any more like they did in the 90's. Existing customers may buy less because their own collections are large, so they only buy the odd thing as they need it rather than entire armies. If they then lose customers at the same or lower rate as they gain new ones, they would maintain the same (or possibly larger) customer base while selling less to each individual customer.

Because GW are the largest company, it's not hard to imagine that they could be approaching saturation while other smaller companies are not.

I'm not saying that's definitely what's happening, but customer retention is a very important factor yet a difficult thing to actually quantify. I'm sure there's many people who already own one or more 40k/WHFB army, GW did the work of getting them in to the hobby but now that they already have 40k/WHFB collections they are more likely to spend money on other non-GW things.

If GW would sell stuff for a reasonable price (and not two or three times more), it's pretty likely people would buy a couple more boxes than they actually need. With so messed up prices, it's likely they actually buy less. Not to mention starting whole new armies.

Since after the initial investment plastic frames production cost is dirt cheap, gw could actually do that.

I feel like if GW dropped their prices their sales would increase more than enough to compensate. I'm shocked their not testing this more.

GW's problem is 4 fold

High Prices: Not much to explain. People want cheaper stuff.

Competitors and discount retailers: They provide alternate models at cheaper prices and the same GW models at a cheaper price. This encourages people to move away from GW Direct. This also includes things such as video games and other forms of entertainment like Netflix which people in the last 10 years have been using instead of the models of old.

Loss of customers and revenue: As high prices drive customers to other companies, revenue goes down. As customers go discount, profit drops accordingly. Think about it. If every customer suddenly switched from buying everything Direct to a 10% discount retailer, gross income drops 10% on sales. As the money coming in lowers.

Shareholders and private investments and greed on accoiunt of the company owners like Kirby: As money coming in drops, that is less money for the share holders and the investors dry up, which means the company goes down the toilet and Kirby can no longer line his pockets with 20s and wipe his backside with £5s. Therefore, in order to maintain the same income or higher, they must raise prices. This in turn creates high prices in a perpetual cycle.



The only way I see for the death spin to stop is for the guys at the top to stop being greedy, take a hit to their pockets and actually take some time to grow the customer base by lowering prices. GW like to think they are the big dogs but in reality they are terriers fighting against packs of rats (small and numerous, nothing to do with their ethics or whatever), bullying puppies and kittens and living in the shadow of German Shepherds.

Ok, well lets say for what ever reason GW can't/won't reduce their prices. Does anyone have any ideas how else they might be able to add value to their product?

loyalty cards? Christmas sales? get a paint pot half price with each box etc

Taffy17 wrote:
Ok, well lets say for what ever reason GW can't/won't reduce their prices. Does anyone have any ideas how else they might be able to add value to their product?

loyalty cards? Christmas sales? get a paint pot half price with each box etc

Add more figures? Instead of 5 for $50 (Sternguard) give 10. Provide everything needed to make a complete unit with all the options in the box (e.g. If I buy a tactical squad give me one of each heavy weapon).

That's the second biggest problem (first being the shoddy rules). It's not so much the prices as it is what you get for the money. For whatever reason, right or wrong, GW feels like they are ripping you off and deliberately giving you less figures/useful options to push you to buy multiple boxes and therefore spend more.

I have zero problem buying a $50 box for Warmahordes because it feels like good value: I get the full unit, not the minimum, and I can field them with everything I need (in part because they don't have "1 model can have X at +Y points"), and they represent a nice piece of an army. Buying a $50 box from GW feels like you're getting a lot less, because:

A) You're likely only getting the minimal number of models, so you'd need to buy a second box to make a full squad, and most of the time you want a full squad.
B) You probably do not get all of the available options on the sprue, so you'll have to buy another box or even a different box (e.g. Devastator Squad) to outfit the squad with what you want, and the options you can field out of the box nobody in their right mind would really field if they cared about the game
C) The squad represents only a small portion of your force and there's a lot of duplication in regular squads, so it feels like you're just spending a lot of money to get more of the same thing to bulk out your force, not because they are actually useful.

That's not even getting into things like solos/smaller units from PP costing a lot less than GW's single characters and the like, and the current ridiculousness of making everything limited and selling out in minutes/hours. It all just in general adds to this feeling that GW considers you to be an idiot who drools over everything they make and feel that you must buy it right now because it's GW and it's awesome, and who cares if you need to buy 2 boxes to make one unit because the figures are so shiny and pretty and the best in the universe. They don't make you feel like a customer, they make you feel like a mark who is getting conned by a snake oil salesman.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Ok, well lets say for what ever reason GW can't/won't reduce their prices. Does anyone have any ideas how else they might be able to add value to their product?

loyalty cards? Christmas sales? get a paint pot half price with each box etc

Add more figures? Instead of 5 for $50 (Sternguard) give 10. Provide everything needed to make a complete unit with all the options in the box (e.g. If I buy a tactical squad give me one of each heavy weapon).

That's the second biggest problem (first being the shoddy rules). It's not so much the prices as it is what you get for the money. For whatever reason, right or wrong, GW feels like they are ripping you off and deliberately giving you less figures/useful options to push you to buy multiple boxes and therefore spend more.

I have zero problem buying a $50 box for Warmahordes because it feels like good value: I get the full unit, not the minimum, and I can field them with everything I need (in part because they don't have "1 model can have X at +Y points"), and they represent a nice piece of an army. Buying a $50 box from GW feels like you're getting a lot less, because:

A) You're likely only getting the minimal number of models, so you'd need to buy a second box to make a full squad, and most of the time you want a full squad.
B) You probably do not get all of the available options on the sprue, so you'll have to buy another box or even a different box (e.g. Devastator Squad) to outfit the squad with what you want, and the options you can field out of the box nobody in their right mind would really field if they cared about the game
C) The squad represents only a small portion of your force and there's a lot of duplication in regular squads, so it feels like you're just spending a lot of money to get more of the same thing to bulk out your force, not because they are actually useful.

That's not even getting into things like solos/smaller units from PP costing a lot less than GW's single characters and the like, and the current ridiculousness of making everything limited and selling out in minutes/hours. It all just in general adds to this feeling that GW considers you to be an idiot who drools over everything they make and feel that you must buy it right now because it's GW and it's awesome, and who cares if you need to buy 2 boxes to make one unit because the figures are so shiny and pretty and the best in the universe. They don't make you feel like a customer, they make you feel like a mark who is getting conned by a snake oil salesman.

This.

For a decent size IG force you'll need a lot of guys. For 1000 points you'll need around 50, that's 5 boxes, and for this you get no special weapons (only the two lamest ones) no heavy weapons. You can't make veterans out of the box (no carapace armor, no melta bomb, no demolition charge, no camo cloak, no plasma, no melta, no sniper). You have 5 boxes, all containing basic options. And with that you don't have an army, you have your most basic troop choice's cheapest half.

You need a lot of boxes, the boxes come with lame options, and the boxes are expensive. This is wrong on all the ways possible. You can't be this stupid by yourself, you need to intentionally mess this up. And this is true on nearly all and every level where gw operates.

Not to mention that you often need/want transport vehicles which cost almost as much (sometimes more, sometimes? less) as the box itself, so before you even get into needing multiple boxes, you need to buy double (once for the unit, once for the transport). So that just adds more to the idea that you aren't treated like a customer, you're treated like a sucker who will pay anything and is too stupid to realize you're paying 3+ times for a single unit that represents like 1/10th of your force, so in reality you are paying 3+ multiple times over.

Well, GW seems to clearly think they are selling a premium item and do not want to devalue it through sales and set unreasonable customer expectations.

We now boil down to two customer types:
1) Those who have many models, enough for full forces and are "locked in" the hobby and need to spend to be current (updates of codex's, rules and new models).
2) New hobbyists who do not know of the upkeep costs and are attracted to the introductory game sets that are somewhat competitive in price. Then they become like customer type #1 since they are now invested into the hobby.

The loud complaining that have been referenced is us old guys who remember GW "doing it right" in the past and keep believing (hoping?) those times could come again.

It seems sad as my very large 40k collection gathers dust as I dust-off Battletech, actively play X-wing (with great joy) and just got my starter set of Warmachine and (gasp!) find the tactics more competitive and fun than what I am used to. I had sold-off a full Tau force once, and gave away an Eldar force to a cousin short on cash but long on interest: I regretted both of those instances. I will not sell off my collections ever.

So I will always be willing to point out possible ways GW could go, since I have the models, only need to be enticed by a half decent game rule-set. Large sales like buy 3 and get at the price of 2 (2 1/2 maybe?) will always be of interest and cause someone like me to think of opening up my wallet.

I actually was in a weird situation because I was a veteran gamer but all my models (well, the vast majority) were destroyed in a flood, so when I wanted to play 40k again I had to basically start from scratch, and the "new" GW quickly turned me off from the idea completely because it wasn't the company that I had remembered. Even if I used the bit of figures I still have, the cost would be crazy for ultimately a small amount more.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I actually was in a weird situation because I was a veteran gamer but all my models (well, the vast majority) were destroyed in a flood, so when I wanted to play 40k again I had to basically start from scratch, and the "new" GW quickly turned me off from the idea completely because it wasn't the company that I had remembered. Even if I used the bit of figures I still have, the cost would be crazy for ultimately a small amount more.

In the same position as you I would probably "jazz-hands" and go to something completely different.
There would be an improper sense of frustration I would think.
Yeah, a flood wrecking what I have now... no, best not to dwell on it.

 Talizvar wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I actually was in a weird situation because I was a veteran gamer but all my models (well, the vast majority) were destroyed in a flood, so when I wanted to play 40k again I had to basically start from scratch, and the "new" GW quickly turned me off from the idea completely because it wasn't the company that I had remembered. Even if I used the bit of figures I still have, the cost would be crazy for ultimately a small amount more.

In the same position as you I would probably "jazz-hands" and go to something completely different.
There would be an improper sense of frustration I would think.
Yeah, a flood wrecking what I have now... no, best not to dwell on it.

That's basically why I do not play 40k. It's not so much that I don't want to, but I can't justify spending that kind of money on an overall lackluster game. I play Warmachine instead because, while it often doesn't feel as enjoyable, it feels much better overall and, as I stated above, I don't feel like the company is trying to nickle and dime me into spending a truckload of money on basic things.

I look for example at the recent Blood Angel miniatures and while they look cool, I then immediately think of how little that actually is and how much more I'll need to buy to get a playable force for game night at the 40k-centric FLGS, and then I say "Feth that!" once I see what it would cost me. Same thing happened with the Dark Eldar, and Space Wolves, and Crimson Slaughter, etc. I look at the figures, think they do look cool, and then grimace when I determine what extra I need.

If the miniature count was like it used to be in 2nd edition, then their pricing on things would be just about acceptable, a little high but not crazy. Their boxed sets would shoot up in value, but you'd need less so they would view it overall as being a net loss.

Edit: Whoops, wrong thread! I need sleep

I don't think so seeing as SW didn't.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think their idea is to trap people who think "there must be a saving in buying this bundle" but never actually check out the cost of the bundle.

It's entirely this.

pm713 wrote:
I don't think so seeing as SW didn't.

Space Wolves don't use the Tactical Kit though. Besides, wrong thread, thought this was the BA rumours.

The firebase support cadre, although not a set like the one you are describing did provide some savings. It is a formation for tau, I picked up at gw store, $285, included 6 broadsides($300 retail) and a riptide($85).

"Battleforce" boxes are another example of how you can get new models for less than standard retail.

Those of you looking for deals and not able to find them aren't looking hard enough.

Does gw give good deals? Never. You pay more for the models than their weight in gold by a substantial margin.

But I love the "universe" so I keep playing...and paying.

Epartalis wrote:
The firebase support cadre, although not a set like the one you are describing did provide some savings. It is a formation for tau, I picked up at gw store, $285, included 6 broadsides($300 retail) and a riptide($85).

"Battleforce" boxes are another example of how you can get new models for less than standard retail.

Those of you looking for deals and not able to find them aren't looking hard enough.

Does gw give good deals? Never. You pay more for the models than their weight in gold by a substantial margin.

But I love the "universe" so I keep playing...and paying.

It's not a matter of not being able to find them, it's the fact that the company touts their figures as some exotic luxury item when they're plastic multi-part kits the same as other models, but they cost about twice more (and you need a lot more) because reasons.